Key Weight Comparisons - An Objective Test

[Jazzwee]

I learned something new today and I thought we could all finally put an end to subjective comments like, P120's have heavier keys than Roland 300SX and Grand Pianos have heavier keys than Uprights, etc.

 

Typical number bandied around for proper key weight is 50 grams. Apparently, Piano techs use Nickels (5 Grams) and Pennies (2.5 Grams) to perform this test. By using the nickels and pennies as weights, you look for the amount of coins that will bring the key down to the bottom. Sometimes a little jiggling is required due to friction.

 

I will start with my findings and it would be very illuminating if everyone did this test on their digital pianos and their acoustics and give us a lot of information. This way, if we go to a gig using existing equipment, we will have a general idea of what to expect.

 

My findings:

 

Yamaha U3 Acoustic Piano (Upright)

1. Damper Pedal Depressed (middle register) - 60 Grams

(12 pennies)

2. Damper Pedal Not Depressed (middle register) - 90 Grams(18 nickels)

 

Yamaha S90ES

This has a balanced weighting so all keys weigh the same. Being a digital, there is no damper weight -- 70 grams

 

Conclusion on my end, since I use the Acoustic mostly without a pedal, I'm actually pressing down usually at 90 grams.

 

Next time I go to a piano store or GC, I'm going to have to carry a lot of nickels!

 

Another thing I will have to try later is the weight of the lower register vs. the upper register.

 

Let's bring it on!

 

 

 

edited: Cydonia corrected pennies to be 2.5 grams.

[Jazzwee]

M-Audio O2 Controller

 

At 17 nickels (85 Grams) it is depressed but not reaching the very bottom. Lots of resistance there. The first depression was accomplished with 15 nickels. 16 to go down further. 17 nickels for full effect. So this has variable weight going down. This is probably my objective definition of mushy. Pretty heavy for a digital.

[K K]

Jazzwee, according to several results using Google, an American penny = 2,5 grams. This just for precise results.

 

Also, a grand in good condition shouldn't have more than 5 grams difference between the bass and the treble. Otherwise, it needs maintenance.

 

I find the difference between no/with damper on your piano to be rather enormous. Maybe you need a little maintenance on it.

 

60 grams is already classified as heavy. 90 grams is definitely too much. But hey, you're the one playing so it's up to you. :grin:

 

Another thing you should test is the possible weight difference between the whites and blacks in a given register (say in the middle).

 

[Billdar]

Jazzwee,

 

Great post! I hope that this starts a little trend away from pure subjectivity.

 

Cheers!

 

Bill

[eric]

I feel like I have read this kind of data before using pennies as the measurement, perhaps on this forum. I am pretty sure Jazz+ had previously done some camparison across the cadre of digital pianos he has owned and sold over the years. I don't have so much luck using Search on the forum these days (and this was an older post), but I'll go dumpster diving and see what I can find.

[kanker.]

eric - try searching Google using

 

site:https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php search

 

in the Google search box, with 'search' being whatever word(s) you are looking for.

[Jazzwee]

Cydonia, I've corrected pennies to 2.5 grams. This means that my U3 Piano is truly heavy. I'm actually quite surprised. Now I can see where I get my tendonitis!

 

I was also warned that weight isn't everything. Friction in the "Balance Rail Pin Holes", apparently the pivot point for each key affects the feeling of weight. So sluggishness requires effort, kind of simulating added weight.

 

C'mon guys -- give us some data. Must not be that hard to come up with a few nickels right?

 

 

[K K]

Jazzwee, probably the right weight on your U3 is 60 grams, which gives it a heavy touch even at that! Probably something needs to be fixed on your damper mechanism. No surprise you get tendonitis practicing on it. Be careful, since such injuries can take a long time to go away. Call you piano tech when you can.

[Jazzwee]

Now here's an interesting finding. Mostly everyone says that the lower register keys are heavier than the higher register keys. On the U3, with damper up, the weight is 60 grams from end to end no difference.

 

However, damper is 100 grams at the lowest keys and 90 grams at the point where the damper ends in the middle register. Obviously the higher register has no dampers.

 

This is interesting because many DP's have graded hammer action. As you can see here, even with damper, the difference is only 10 grams which is hardly noticeable. And there's no difference with damper up.

 

Cydonia, what is the key weight of your Kurzweil? What is the appropriate damper weight for an acoustic? I wish someone would compare with me.

 

Honestly for most of my playing, even the 90 grams on the U3 (damper down) is effortless now. I get tendonitis from outstretched manuevers (Rachmaninoff Exercise). It's harder to have a lot of force with fingers stretched. It's not really force as much as fingers able to support the weight of key depression without collapsing (I find at least).

 

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I feel like I have read this kind of data before using pennies as the measurement, perhaps on this forum.

 

Eric, I haven't seen this info before, particulary as a thread, but interestingly, it was hard to do with nickels. Pennies would be difficult to keep stacked and you couldn't keep the weight near the edge.

 

 

 

[kanker.]

http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/index.cfm?action=coin_specifications

[Jazzwee]

So K., try it out on your new CA-X. Got enough nickels?

[keynote]

How about extending this test a little further? You are testing weighted keyboards, but it would be interesting to see how non-weighted keyboards stack up too.

 

For instance, the synth action keybed on my Tyros is very similar in feel to my previous Motif ES7, which in my opinion are both very good. I weighed my Tyros keys and using nickels it took 14 - {70 grams} to fully depress it when the nickels were placed near the end of the white key (although it took 17 - {85 grams} when the nickels were placed right below where the black keys extend to). When weighing the black keys I placed the nickels right near the end of a black key and it took 17 - {85 grams} to fully depress it. So depending on where the nickels were placed on the white keys - i.e. near the edge or back toward the black keys does makes a difference, at least in my case. Again, we're talking synth action not weighted/hammer action. But at 70 and 85 grams my Tyros seems to hold its own. I also wanted to mention that I meticulously weighed the white and black keys several times to make sure I was getting an accurate measurement. I used nickels and pennys in the tests. I also had to do some rummaging around to find enough nickels and pennys to do the tests.

 

PS: It will be interesting to see how the Motif XS 6/7 fairs with the new FSX keybed. While the XS keybed it is suppose to be a whole lot quieter than the ES keybed, how it will do on the nickel/penny test is anyone's guess.

[Jazzwee]

Hey Keynote, I tested an M-Audio semi-weighted above so this is not limited to weighted keys. Except, strangely, the semi-weighted controller weighed more, or actually weighed differently at different levels of key depression. Very unlike a real piano.

 

For consistent testing, we should test at the edge of the white keys. It would be expected due to leverage issues that you'll need more pressure as you head to the back of the keyboard.

 

 

[Sandy Hemenway]

For those without rolls of nickels around, here's the coin to weight scale for U.S. money. (So, if we take this money out of circulation to use for testing our keyboards, would we call this the Ex change rate?)

 

Cent - 2.5 grams

Nickel - 5 grams

Dime - 2.27 grams

Quarter - 5.67 grams

Half Dollar - 11.34 grams

Dollar (SBA) - 8.1 grams

 

[cd8]

Well, I don't know what a nickel looks like...I don't know if i've ever seen one and probably there isn't a nickel in my house. I hope you guys use the same type of grams as we do here though

 

Refurbished Rosenkranz upright piano

 

white and black keys, middle register: 80

Without damper: 60

Lower register: 95

Higher keys: 70

 

M-Audio Axiom (semi-weighted)

 

Not sure, but around 65 (I had trouble deciding what hitting the keybed was for that springy end)

 

[K K]

Cydonia, what is the key weight of your Kurzweil?

 

I'm too broke at the moment. I mostly play classical, remember? Even jazz pianists like you are considered rich compared to Chopin and Beethoven. :grin:

 

But as soon as I find enough pennies this week, I'll get back to you on this.

[K K]

Also, from another old thread here : Yamaha P120 = 75 g

[Jazzwee]

Yeah but a P120 is graded hammer so it should be different by register. The S90ES is 70gms even on all keys.

 

Cydonia, do you have equivalent weighted coins in Canada? Or are the weights different?

[bob revay]

My Casio Privia PX-100

 

C1-24 nickles-120 grams

middle C-23 nickles-115 grams

C7-17 nickles-85 grams

 

It feels more responsive than these weights would suggest. The keys begin to go down about 20 to 25 grams less than to hold the keys down. Some sort of balancing thing happening I suppose.

[K K]

Hahaha, I don't have a clue really about their weights. I suppose they must be pretty close to the USA ones, except they are worth less. :grin:

 

But we also have polar bear coins ($2).

[ProfD]

I'd use these wooden nickels to test my S80 but I figure no amount of them will ever equal a dime. I'll extrapolate my number from tests of a similar board.

[Jazzwee]

Bob revay, you're describing friction, which is interesting. Friction can be determined by removing the nickels and seeing when it starts going back up. The more nickels removed the more the friction. That test is called 'Upweight' vs. the 'Downweight' testing we are doing.

 

I haven't tested my Casio yet. It's packed up in the gig bag and it's not set up. I also have an EMU X-Board 49 I can test.

[latchmo]

I couldn't resist....

 

My Yamaha upright:

 

damper pedal UP - 23 euro "nickels" X 3.92grams = 90.16 grams

damper pedal DOWN - 16 euro "nickels" X 3.92grams = 62.72 grams

 

3.92 grams comes from the official UK Euro website

 

I'll weigh the RD600 later.

[Jazzwee]

I think you got the dampers in reverse, Latchmo. Interesting though because Cydonia thought my numbers were high. Yamahas and Kawais normally check out at 60 without dampers and I hear dampers add another 30 (which is consistent here).

 

I'd really like to see the Roland results because everyone always says the Rolands have lighter keys.

 

 

[K K]

Well, it's not much me who thinks this more than what is considered "average" by most manufacturers and pianists. As you mentioned initially, you're right about the 50 g being a common average for a so-called "medium" key weight on a grand.

 

Note that those values are always tested with the right pedal down.

 

If you Google a little, you'll find that 60 g is often considered heavy and 40 g light for grand pianos. And these values are taken from real pianos, not digitals.

[Dave Horne]

Perhaps we could have a conversion rate for Euro currency.

 

Just kidding.

 

Wouldn't it be easier to simply drop a 'weight' in a plastic tube measuring the distance above the key?

[Jazzwee]

If you Google a little, you'll find that 60 g is often considered heavy and 40 g light for grand pianos. And these values are taken from real pianos, not digitals.

 

I understand that Cydonia, but what we learn here is what the weight is of digitals in comparison. Since digitals don't have dampers, they have a choice for what intermediate value (with or without dampers) to use for a digital keyboard.

 

I'm thinking too that for those people who play the piano riding on pedals, weighted digital keyboards must seem heavy.

[Jazzwee]

Perhaps we could have a conversion rate for Euro currency.

 

Just kidding.

 

Wouldn't it be easier to simply drop a 'weight' in a plastic tube measuring the distance above the key?

 

In the US at least, I can't imagine anything simpler than nickels. No special equipment needed and we all have it unless we are too poor to buy a keyboard.

 

Don't you keep US money Dave? At least for posterity?

 

If we used a dollar/euro conversion, will we have to update it daily? :grin:

[lerber3]

Steinway M, middle C

- no damper: 75 grams

- damper: 66 grams

 

Nord Stage

- 72.5 grams

 

Now that's a shock to me... I find the Stage to be like playing air compared to Steinway.