Writing lyrics/ starting a song?

[JonathanD]

Hello all,

I am a sax player turned bassist. I am looking into the process of writing. I always seem to get stuck. I can write a bass part or a sax part no problem. Even writing them together is fine. Using some organ in there isnt a stretch and I have a fair understanding of theory. its the concept that always blocks me. I may get an idea in my head but as soon as I sit down the words or song structure disappear. Does anyone ahve any suggestions on getting their ideas going for lyrics?

I also keep paper with me at work and write down whats in my head on that. but when I try and put it down it just seems like anus.

 

Not looking for advice per se, but instead hopeing to start a discussion.

 

Jonathan

[Eric VB]

Hey Jonathon!

 

I agree with you 100%. For me it is much easier to arrange music than to write a song from scratch. I think that has to do with how I've approached music in the past. I'm far more comfortable composing music than writing lyrics. If only instrumental music were popular, eh?

 

For others it may be that lyrics come easily but music does not.

 

Although there are some online songwriting resources, I've found them to be a little wanting.

 

I spent some time at my local library and walked away with a stack of books on songwriting. I went to the bookstore, too, to check out more recent titles. I think I ended up with "Songwriting for Dummies", which is just a more recent edition of another songwriting book by the same author. There are plenty of books to choose from. If you work well with books, you may want to look around to see what catches your eye.

 

Another thing I discovered is my local songwriting association. In my case it is Nashville Songwriters Association International (NSAI). They're all over, not just in Nashville. And although they focus primarily on the Nashville market (i.e. country music), they seem to be open to at least similar styles. I haven't jumped in with both feet yet, so I really can't say for sure. The best way to find out is to investigate your own local songwriting associations.

 

One thing that you're bound to find -- as I did -- is collaboration. There are pros and cons to collaboration, but one thing it can be particularly useful for is getting through mental blocks. The best information I found about collaborating was from books. I suggest researching at least the etiquette of collaboration before diving in and hooking up with partners.

 

Online collaboration is often different. In face-to-face collaboration you can work with your partner(s) in real time, bouncing ideas back and forth in a creative frenzy. Online collaboration is often just adding arrangements to a "complete" song: lyrics plus melody (and often a chord progression, too). Although MP has a collaboration forum it is not as active as others out there.

 

Unfortunately, unless you have some input on the lyrics or melody of a song, it is rare to garner songwriting credit for a "collaboration". Even if you write the catchiest of all bass lines that really "make" the song, there is no guarantee it will earn songwriting credit. Even recording credit can be tricky. A "hired gun" studio musician may see money up front for services rendered, but no royalties on recordings sold. In most online collaborations no money changes hands, and the recording is often used to demo the song, i.e. does not generate any royalties. From what I've seen, it's much more of a "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" kind of arrangement. You add bass to someone else's song, and then for your song they will add guitar, drums, etc.

 

Finally, just like anything else in life we pursue, the more you do it the better you tend to get. Just keep trying. Although keeping a notebook with you at all times helps capture ideas and thoughts, some people recommend setting aside a regular time to actually write songs, like you do to practice your instrument. So maybe every Monday night from 7-9pm you set aside for songwriting. It may not be very productive at first, but eventually things should loosen up.

 

In summary, I've had good luck with books and songwriting associations, but not so much with online resources. Collaboration can be helpful, but make sure you're a good collaborator first and know what you're getting into with most online collaborations. Regularly practice your craft for improvement.

[Eric VB]

Well, since I strayed a little bit and got a double post, let me try again.

 

For lyrics I like to start from a concept or idea. You've got to organize your thoughts first or else you'll just have a mess.

 

It's like writing a 5-paragraph composition for high school English. Pick a theme. Come up with three supporting ideas. Maybe use an outline. Flesh it out into three paragraphs and then add appropriate introductory and summary paragraphs. Easy as pie except for the poor high school student that hasn't ever written a paper before or gets stuck with a theme they aren't familiar with.

 

Pick your song's theme or idea. In country music this often hinges on a popular phrase, or a twist on a popular phrase. For example, Mary Chapin Carpenter's "The Bug" relies on "sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug". In Tim McGraw's "Don't Take the Girl", he uses the same title phrase to mean different things.

 

In "Don't Take the Girl", the three supporting ideas are turned into verses. In the first verse he doesn't want his dad to take a girl fishing with them. The next time he doesn't want an armed robber to harm his girlfriend, and finally he prays to God that his wife doesn't die at the hospital. The chorus/refrain acts to bring these three separate episodes together with the common title phrase, but otherwise changes to fit each verse/episode. An instrumental introduction is used, and a short reprise of the opening verse is used as a closing.

 

Rock lyrics tend to be less story-telling and more sparse and repetitive. For example, "Love Me Do" by The Beatles.

 

Song structure can vary, too. Not everything has to be VCVCBC. But that's the equivalent to the 5-paragraph form. Sometimes it's easier to make our ideas fit the form than to work out something else. Other times it's easier to change the form to fit the ideas, for example adding a fourth supporting paragraph for six paragraphs total. Why not start with the chorus or have two verses before the first chorus?

 

Once you get familiar with the mechanics of working from an idea to actual lyrics, it becomes clear that often the hardest part of songwriting is discovering good song ideas.

[hantruk]

Very interesting, the whole 5 paragraph paper idea. I find I get stuck in ruts and some pieces of music go untouched for months. Sometimes i open up the whole song by taking fragments I didn't finish from one song and getting them to fit into another song. Writing Lyrics is difficult for myself because I will take myself too seriously, and think everything that comes out of my head is beneath me. (Read that last sentence several, and think of how foolish that is, if your anything like me). Sometimes I may come up with a hook, and build multiple rhymes around it and other times I just try to write poetry and write a couple of chords later. For the most part I find most of my stuff ends up as instrumentals, but I am less inclined to play them for my friends because most non music types (it would be a stretch to call myself a musician) Can't listen to instrumentals for too long.

[thanksforhelpethan]

Hehe for me it seems to be the exact opposite from you guys. For me writing lyrics comes to me like 2nd nature, but my music playing ability lacks. I geuss thats why sometimes people come together to make songs... maybe I should try that one day haha.

 

I started writing lyrics first and only recently started playing a instrument, so I am sure thats a big part in this. But one thing for me when I was first starting out writing lyrics was (and I almost hate to admit it) I would mimic my favorite artists. At first when you start writing it makes things a bit easier. Down then road once you are starting to become a experienced writer you will come into your own and begin writing in your own style. But in the begining I think it helps to atleast some extent copy songs you respect.

 

Hope this helps.

[hantruk]

THANKSFOR.....

YOU SHOULD PROBABY JUST PLAY A FEW BARRE CHORDS OR POWER CHORDS, AND BE SATISFIED WITHT THAT AS THE SONG, UNLESS YOU ARE INTO ORCHESTRATING. MAYBE YOU SHOULD GET AN INEXPENSIVE PRIOR VERSION OF ACID PRO LIKE 5.0 OR 4.0, YOU WILL HAVE PLAENTY OF DRUMS BASS, AND OTHER INSTRUMENTS TO PLAY AROUND WITH.

[thanksforhelpethan]

oh i already got a korg triton extreme, mpc 2500, and pro tools. I used to mess around doing it on fruity loops and such a few years ago. But I like this hands on method with keyboards and a good drum machine much more. Plus I wanna write some classical ballets too.

[Cozmicslop]

I know I posted this back awhile ago, but what helps me most is I'll sometimes build the song form around a feeling or idea. Then I'll loop it and let it play over and over again just throwing lyrics at it.

 

I'll sing deliberate nonsense and sometimes come up with the coolest lines that way. Like I said on another thread, making up nonsense sometimes, your real inner thoughts come out. Taping this gibberish over the music will sometimes come up with great hooks you can then build around.

 

It seems that by not restricting your self to words, you end up focusing on melodies. For me, it's harder to put melodies onto words written in advance, so I tend to work backwards.

 

 

 

 

[thanksforhelpethan]

oh one thing i have been doing lately is mumbling after i make the song. basically just finding the right tones for singing and then slowly start feeling what the words actually are. sounds weird, and i probally seem possessed when i do it, but, so far its been fun and im comming up with good stuff with this method.

[ABGBrian]

i read in a paul mccartney interview in bassplayer magazine some months back that his lyric writing process is mostly the same. he says he usually jams on the guitar or piano some chord progressions and scats along vocally until syllables and eventually words come together. he says once he gets one phrase down the rest of the song will come a lot easier. i kind of think of it like old-style photo development where you went into a room with a red light and then you put the blank photo paper in the water or photo-fluid whatever it is and you let the paper soak until the picture slowly forms into a coherent shape. that process of taking blank paper and extracting the picture from it slowly and progressively is kind of how i think of lyric writing.