Music or Tab

[Xplorer]

Originally posted by Braxat:

Here is something intresting.

 

they said that tab was a way to get around using your ears and being layz... BUT they said that tab dosent show you anything but the frets and sometimes the pulls, bends, slides etc. AND they also said that Standard notation does give you keys chords rythm and everything a tab dosent.

 

whats lazier, to learn the key chor rythm and all by ear because the tab wont tell you ( it just gives you an idea of the frets. ) or to learn to `read` and have a piece of paper tell you everything?

That's a really interesting perspective.

 

I guess if you are fluent in SN and are equally comfortable reading tab... standard notation would be the lazy way of learning the song. I mean, if you were a serious pro, you could probubly play a song using SN with earplugs. With tab you NEED to use your EARS to develop the subtlties that are not layed out for you.

[King Kamehameha]

Yeah that Joe Satriani exercise works, I got it from Gary Hoey. I'm getting better, but y'know.

 

As for tab...

 

It can be useful, but I prefer learning songs by ear. I am going to start taking lessons in reading music soon. I can understand why some people would rely just on tab, but in the long run, it isn't good for you.

 

There has already been a huge thing about this....

[GuitarPlayerFL]

Back in the dark ages when I had to walk to school in the snow.... (Like FL had snow )

 

The only tab I remember seeing was for the Led Zeppelin Complete book...there was tab only for a few solos or Black Mountain Side. The majority of music books didn't have it.

 

My 1977 original copy of Artful Arpeggios by Don Mock only had standard notation, and you had to special order a cassette if you wanted audio examples. Now, I'm sure the latest edition of the book has tab. I believe guitar books today won't sell unless you have tab.

 

People always take the easy way out. I learned how to read music from day one...what's so difficult?

Nobody says you have to *sight read*, but finding the pitches on the guitar neck is easy. You can notate which string (using numbers) on standard notation....classical guitar music has done it for years.

 

Guitar World has gone to straight tab with the addition of rhythmic values.

 

How L-A-M-E is that?

 

It's not surprising since they usually fill the rag with the latest death metal monkey posers (who ever has the best makeup and costume).

[jhhorvath]

I find TAB useful when learning something played in some non-standard tuning. I'm not sure standard musical notation even addresses that situation.

 

Can someone who reads fluently shed some light on this? Does standard musical notation have a system to indicate the guitar should be tuned in a certain way?

[Billster]

Originally posted by jhhorvath:

Does standard musical notation have a system to indicate the guitar should be tuned in a certain way?

Yes. You write the tuning in the top margin of the first page.

 

As for fretboard position, the way I learned was that the sheet music should have small Roman numerals beneath the staff to indicate the fret position. "IV" for example would indicate the index finger is at the fourth fret.

 

Having fretboard knowledge would pretty much handle any question of what string a given note falls on, given the indicated hand position. Within a certain hand position one could probably reach the same note in a couple of different places, but the way the musical line flows would obviate the most practical choice.

[huafist]

Originally posted by Billster:

Originally posted by jhhorvath:

Does standard musical notation have a system to indicate the guitar should be tuned in a certain way?

Yes. You write the tuning in the top margin of the first page.

 

As for fretboard position, the way I learned was that the sheet music should have small Roman numerals beneath the staff to indicate the fret position. "IV" for example would indicate the index finger is at the fourth fret.

 

Having fretboard knowledge would pretty much handle any question of what string a given note falls on, given the indicated hand position. Within a certain hand position one could probably reach the same note in a couple of different places, but the way the musical line flows would obviate the most practical choice.

Yeah, my first 6 months of college playing consisted of "POSITION! POSITION! POSITION!" I got sick of the word, and now I preach it lol

[bernie sawford]

Yes. You write the tuning in the top margin of the first page.

 

As for fretboard position, the way I learned was that the sheet music should have small Roman numerals beneath the staff to indicate the fret position. "IV" for example would indicate the index finger is at the fourth fret.

 

Could you explaim more as to how this would relate to to the written music other than just moving the notaion, interpretation, of the written music from within? Lets get deep!!

[Durockrolly]

It seem to me that one uses tab to "play" the guitar, while one learns to read music to become a "musician".

[Guitarzan]

Originally posted by GuitarPlayerSoCal:

Back in the dark ages when I had to walk to school in the snow.... (Like FL had snow )

 

The only tab I remember seeing was for the Led Zeppelin Complete book...there was tab only for a few solos or Black Mountain Side. The majority of music books didn't have it.

 

My 1977 original copy of Artful Arpeggios by Don Mock only had standard notation, and you had to special order a cassette if you wanted audio examples. Now, I'm sure the latest edition of the book has tab. I believe guitar books today won't sell unless you have tab.

 

People always take the easy way out. I learned how to read music from day one...what's so difficult?

Nobody says you have to *sight read*, but finding the pitches on the guitar neck is easy. You can notate which string (using numbers) on standard notation....classical guitar music has done it for years.

 

Guitar World has gone to straight tab with the addition of rhythmic values.

 

How L-A-M-E is that?

 

It's not surprising since they usually fill the rag with the latest death metal monkey posers (who ever has the best makeup and costume).

now there is an awesome band name!!!

Death Metal Monkey Posers!!!

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Durockrolly:

It seem to me that one uses tab to "play" the guitar, while one learns to read music to become a "musician".

Yes that says it all! You know this subject comes up all the time not only on this forum but on most others too. I guess I'll never understand the resistance to learning standard notation? Just approach the guitar like any other instrument! It's NOT that difficult, I mean I learned reading on piano when I was six years old! I mean if you have to use tab fine, learn BOTH, your going to play guitar the rest of your life why not do it right once and for all!!

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Xplorer:

I don't know how to read SN, and I use tabs alot. I'm not much of a musician though, I just enjoy hacking around on the guitar. If you are a serious musician, tabs take you down a dead end street.

Perfect! next question, and I'm NOT being a smartass, WHY don't you want to be more serious? and sutdy more and upgrade your skills. Wouldn't you like to play with a band? with other good players, take two good years of concentrated study and you will be very glad you did!

[Billster]

Originally posted by bernie sawford:

Could you explaim more as to how this would relate to to the written music other than just moving the notaion, interpretation, of the written music from within? Lets get deep!!

Here\'s my bible on notation. I studied with McGrain and can recall some conversations about various topics like using notation as a composers tool vs. a performers tool. Every instrument has special techniques that need to be addressed - violin, timpani, you name it.

 

As a writer, you can get really specific and through-compose to a ridiculous degree, or you can make a few cryptic references and rely on the idiomatic skills of the performer, or you can do something in between.

 

As a performer you have to recognize what's presented - is it really specific, or is it something open to interpretation?

 

As a student of guitar, taking a simple lead sheet for a standard tune and really analyzing the best approach for the style you want to create on the instrument will give you a really strong grasp of the tune in terms of its form, concept, and construction. Having the notation or tabs hand you things like fret position and stuff actually may limit your understanding of the tune to a superficial level, because you are going by rote rather than really examining the tune. Of course that may be what the writer wants - a faithful performance of exactly what they decided. Again, respect the situation. But for your own education and development, approaching a piece in a variety of ways will help you understand how music works and what does and doesn't appeal to you.

 

No notation thread is complete without reference to the Death Waltz

[bernie sawford]

Ok, Understood, but my line of thought is this, if you had never listened to Jimi Hendrix "voodoo chile" just as an example, how would you be able to write that in music or tab to enable the player to interpret his style?

I know its a bit off the wall but your thoughts.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by bernie sawford:

Is it best to use Music or Tab when playing the Guitar? And why?

Both. Stop sitting there questioning things you know that will help you/not hurt and just do it

[Xplorer]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by Xplorer:

I don't know how to read SN, and I use tabs alot. I'm not much of a musician though, I just enjoy hacking around on the guitar. If you are a serious musician, tabs take you down a dead end street.

Perfect! next question, and I'm NOT being a smartass, WHY don't you want to be more serious? and sutdy more and upgrade your skills. Wouldn't you like to play with a band? with other good players, take two good years of concentrated study and you will be very glad you did!

That's a question I've been asking myself alot latley. I've always just enjoyed jaming in my room for fun. I was never really that serious about playing, but I haven't put the guitar down in over 10 years! I love the instrument more than the music (if that can make any sence). I'm a electronics/mechanical technoligist and I love wood working, so these things are art to me.

 

It's quite obvious to me what knowledge of music theory affords you as a guitar player. I've had alot of friends ask me how I learned. When I tell them I'm self taught and don't know theory they think it's cool. I have to quite seriously tell them that there is NOTHING cool about it! I'm starting to look at some theory, and that will likely become my new hobby.

 

I'm a good rythm player and can play by ear, but without a fundamental knowledge of theory I can't play leads off the cuff. I will probubly never play in a band for more than just fun and an excuse to do some partying. My interest in learning about music is not as high as it should be. A String has pointed me in the right direction. After I memorize the notes on the fretboard I'll start working on basic scales.

 

It's quite easy for me to learn scales, my hands seem to know what they are doing more than my head does. That being said, I don't or haven't ever considered myself to be a musician. But I am a guitar player, and a huge fan of the instrument!

 

To answer your question, I'm not interested in playing in a band. I have fun jamming along with cd's of my favorite artists. To me, the process of learning the songs by ear is extreamly rewarding. It's more than enough to keep me interested in the instrument. I know that's an odd perspective, but I know lot's of people that have intense jobs, wives, and kids, and are happy just dicking around with a guitar for fun.

[Billster]

Originally posted by bernie sawford:

Ok, Understood, but my line of thought is this, if you had never listened to Jimi Hendrix "voodoo chile" just as an example, how would you be able to write that in music or tab to enable the player to interpret his style?

I know its a bit off the wall but your thoughts.

It's a combination of writing and listening when you have something like that in mind. I've seen stuff like wah pedal manipulations notated in +/- symbols to denote the pedal position in a "waka-waka" type performance, or with annotated crescendo markings for things like a pedal sweep over the duration of an extended note.

 

What I'm interested in taking the notes of a piece and interpreting for a different performance. Like so...

[Dr. Ellwood]

Excellent answer! honest,thoughtful and introspective AND shows that you have the kind of desire guitar players need to become musicians. Most of the elements are there already, the love of the instrument from a mechanical prospective, they are indeed a thing of beauty and part of the equation that makes us want to play. As far as progressing on the instrument in a technical way, you know that anything requiring deep knowledge takes along time to achieve proficiency. It's almost as though you have approached the instrument in reverse, but that's not a bad thing really, you have worked on ear training and made some progress in the right direction, now you need to study music and apply it to the instrument. As far as playing in a band, that's not everybodys cup of tea for sure and it's another direction completely which has nothing to do with learning the instrument, although it helps the process along. You have stuck with the instrument for ten years, that should show you that you will continue to play for the rest of your life. You know it is one of those things that feeds on itself, the more you learn the more you realize how you can apply what you have learned and this takes you in directions you never thought you could go. For me it was just the challenge of applying what I had learned on piano to the guitar, so there was never a issue or a point where I had to make a decision whether to read SN on guitar it was a natural thing. Learning to read standard notation with a solid basis in theory opens up the whole world of music to you and makes the guitar come alive in your mind. These tools allow you to explore the instrument in a deeper and more satisfying way. I hope you will study the theory and reading everyday even if it is just for a half hour, it will give you a new respect for what the instrument can do for you.

[bernie sawford]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by bernie sawford:

Is it best to use Music or Tab when playing the Guitar? And why?

Both. Stop sitting there questioning things you know that will help you/not hurt and just do it

I'm not just sitting here, I am doing it, i'm just chewing over some thoughts and ideas that will expand my knowledge and advance my playing!

 

Hey thats profound!

Just what the forum is for?

[henrysb3]

Well, this discussion got me thinking, so I just opened my Sept. '06 Guitar Player to look at the tabs there in the lessons. The very first one I came across appears to have an error, not in the tab, but in the notation. It's in the AC/DC lick library #5 on page 94, from "Dirty Deeds". The tab shows identical triplets on the high E string of 7-4-0, which would be C-G#-E. The notation shows triplet one as C-G#-E and the next as G#-E-C#, which would not fit in. All the rest follow the pattern of the first tab triplets, moving up a half step each time. 7-4-0, 8-5-0, 9-6-0, on up to 18-15-0. Piece of cake with an SG, huh?

 

The moral is that you can't trust everything that's written down, do some ear training, too.

 

It's a neat little exercise, moving your left hand up the neck, pulling triplets and presumably giving your pinkie a work out.

 

Tab and notation are good tools, just different. I still have a hell of a time reading both clefs for piano. I often use fake books to get the gist of a song, then research it further if I want to really play it as it's written. I remember someone doing a hilarious description in a kind of George Carlin style of Standard Notation as torture.

[Zephyr]

hate to be a stickler here, but you said it started as C-G#-E (7-4-0), actually it would be B-G#-E.

[henrysb3]

Originally posted by Zephyr:

hate to be a stickler here, but you said it started as C-G#-E (7-4-0), actually it would be B-G#-E.

I didn't feel a thing. You're right. I'm going back an forth between the guitar and the keys. Not an excuse, just a mistake.

 

It's in E and I was thinking around all the sharps and somehow came up with B#, which is C.

[baronedo]

Both musical and tabulature notation are useful.

 

I find that tabs are particularly useful when you're trying to play a riff or solo but are not sure where on the fretboard it should be played. For example, if a piece was written and contains an E note, musical notation will not necessarily tell you where to play it on a guitar's fretboard since, due to the nature or the instrument, the same tonal note can be played in different places. For example, the same E note can be located at the 7th fret on the A string or the 12th fret of the Low E string. Musical notation will not tell you where to play this E note but tabulature will.

 

Also, due to the nature our our wonderful string instrument, you can reach a tonal note by bending a lower fretted note to a higher pitch (i.e. bending a 5th fretted A string D note up to an E pitch. Tab will tell you that the note is obtained via bending.

 

In summary, both musical and tabulature notation have their places.