Interesting lack of distortion

[Gruupi]

I am not trying to argue, just add a different twist to the learn clean first suggestion. My whole concept of playing from technique to note choices changes depending on what sound I am using. I think its as hard to learn good distortion technique as it is a good clean sound. With distortion you really have to worry about dampening the unused strings, whereas with a clean sound it is less of a concern. I think technique and tone production should be studied and practiced in depth no matter what your concept of good tone is.

 

The notion that distortion only hides poor technique doesn't pan out for me. In fact I find it easier to play fast and clean with a clean sound right now than I do with a distorted sound.

 

I can't say I prefer the modern distortion to the old Cream era type, but thats just a product of growing up with that sound. Someone that grew up with EVH and later probably prefers more saturation, thats not good or bad, just what they like.

[MILLO]

Originally posted by Gruupi:

I am not trying to argue, just add a different twist to the learn clean first suggestion. My whole concept of playing from technique to note choices changes depending on what sound I am using. I think its as hard to learn good distortion technique as it is a good clean sound. With distortion you really have to worry about dampening the unused strings, whereas with a clean sound it is less of a concern. I think technique and tone production should be studied and practiced in depth no matter what your concept of good tone is.

That's why, in my INITIAL post (not the one you'll see a few posts above), I wrote that I FEEL THE NEED to practice w/ and w/o distortion. In order to ensure the best tone possible (in my world), technique has to be adjusted slightly depending on whether playing picked single-note passages, legato lines, sweep arpeggios, harmonic arpeggios, string skipping, double-stops, etc. W/ OR W/O OVERDRIVEN SOUNDS. If you can achieve EVH tone playing legato lines on acoustic, that's great, but then when translating that to the electric w/ distortion, part of the sound is the DAMPENING of the unused strings. If you don't practice that, it's gonna sound like crap.

[Gruupi]

Exactly Millo. So regardless of what your chosen tone is, as long as its well executed then it isn't a crutch.

[miroslav]

Nothing wrong with using distortion or any other FX.

But they CAN be used to conceal inferior playing...especially when FX get really piled on, as some beginners tend to do.

You knowthat "more is better" mentality.

 

The main point being that when you are just starting out and you still haven't mastered the basics...finger and pick techniquesscales and the ability to connect notes to form meaningful runs/licks...etc...

...you dont need gadgets to help you learn to play betterand they really cant provide anything in the way of technique improvement at that point.

 

 

Theres a reason why all good teachers start simple and then build up the complexity

rather than just throwing it all out there at the same time for the student to assimilate.

 

But.a lot of people want shortcutsthats becoming more and more the norm these days. No one wants to studyto make long-term investment that will only start to pay off in 10-15 years.

They want to be playing in a band and making records6 months after they first pick up an instrument.

So they almost always go for the gadgets right out of the gate.

[Gifthorse]

When I go back to electric, I find it a bit awkward at first because I am so used to the clarity of my acoustic.

 

I agree with you millo, good point. I mean about string noise. That is a very important aspect of electric. Guys like EVH and Steve Vai are masters of controlling string noise.

[Eric Iverson]

Yeah, but Allan Holdsworth and Eric Johnson have been known to use a lot of effects..

 

One solution is practice on acoustic a lot.. then when you play electric, you know you can play the part, and the effects are just gravy. Like a trumpet player or violinist using a mute....

 

Of course, that's not the real world out there.. lots of people hide behind volume and effects!

[MILLO]

Originally posted by Eric Iverson:

Yeah, but Allan Holdsworth and Eric Johnson have been known to use a lot of effects..

 

One solution is practice on acoustic a lot.. then when you play electric, you know you can play the part, and the effects are just gravy. Like a trumpet player or violinist using a mute....

 

Of course, that's not the real world out there.. lots of people hide behind volume and effects!

Yes. And they're also kings of smooth articulation and unused string damping or dampening or whatever the correct form is.

[huafist]

I first learned to play on an electric - didn't have an amp, so I didn't have the issue of distortion. When I did get an amp and a stompbox, I went crazy w/distortion. Then I went to college. Classical guitar. Let me tell you, THAT changed my perspective big time. I realized I sucked haha. After playing that stuff for several years, I noticed a HUGE improvement in my playing, electric and otherwise.

So yeah, IMHO there's the danger of kids favoring huge amounts of distortion over technique, and not even realizing it. I guess the same argument can be made for the guys that play so fast the notes are barely distinguishable, thus making it nearly impossible to tell if a mistake had been made.

Is it intentional? Probably not, at least not for the most part. Is it a problem? Definitely IMHO.

[Wolfgangsta]

I don't think that players use heavy distortion to hide mistakes or inability as much as heavy distortion could cause a player to become a little sloppy. In my younger and less experienced days, I only played with as much distortion as my setup allowed. As I got better, I realized that I was a pretty sloppy player because all the distortion had obscured the sloppiness. Now, I practice on the acoustic more and use less distortion. Not coincidentally, my playing is much more precise (or less sloppy!). Anyhoo, that's my $.02.

[Eric Iverson]

Originally posted by Pappy P:

I use distortion sometimes (OK alot). I've noticed that it does coverup mistakes. I think a compressor and echo do the samething.

 

I practice as clean as possible so I can hear the notes.

 

It definately takes alot of practive to play clean. I've been rehearsing and recording a song with a clean tone. The recordings really pick up any flaws

 

However, I do love the sound of distortion and ovedrive for some songs.

 

Please tell me it's not a sin to use the amount of distortion you want because you like it and not because you are trying to hide something. (serious question)

No, it's not a sin. Effects and distortion have their place, as long as they're tools and not crutches!

 

And it's good to remember that you can get different tones by how you attack the strings, too. For example, Segovia got a wider palette of colors than anyone, and he used NO signal processing!

[Xplorer]

I agree that alot of people are guilty of abusing effects these days. The metal crowd (mainly the younger guy's) are often guilty of abusing distortion specifically. Most of you out there seem to agree that it is an effective way of masking sloppiness or poor playing abilities. I think that this is directly due to your experience (or lack of) with the music they are using the distortion for.

 

I play the same tunes as thes kids do, the only difference is that I use about 50% of the distortion I hear most people using. The result is a much better, and beefier sounding tone.

 

What I am getting at is this... If you were more exposed to the music, you would be able to tell if the playing was sloppy at all. A barrage of metal riffage to a jazz or blues guy is goiing to sound like chaos and noise whether it's played by a professional or a beginner.

 

I can understand the vocals in bands like Cannible Corpse and other "cookie monster" bands. Likewise, I can clearly hear the guitars. When "some kid" starts cranking out the noise at the local guitar store, I can also tell what he is playing, and if it's sloppy or articulate. I argue that half of you guy's don't have a clue about metal, and are making comments about it because you don't get it. It doesn't bother me if you think the music stupid. It does bother me to hear people going on about their own ignorance, talking about a biased opinion of a topic they don't even get nor wish to reasearch.

 

I don't think distortion can mask anything. If it's so noisy that you can't make out the guitars, than chances are the guy playing it is a beginner. I doubt he thinks he's fooling anyone with a disgusting tone, it would be quite obvious by his tone that he dosen't know what he is doing. I've heard alot of clips on You Tube of guys with varing playing abilities that all have shitty tone. But I still manage to tell the good players from the bad.

 

Distorion does not fool us true metal guys.

[doc taz]

Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios:

(see first page for the rest)

 

Have we lost all sense of proportion? Are we using noise to hide our poor playing?

 

Bill

Depends. A lot of the time lately, I've been plugging into my 'lil Fender Mini Twin, and playing it as quietly as humanly possible. That way, I can hear the guitar strings acoustically. Works great with my 7 string.

 

I really need a setup where I can play both clean AND distorted at once... but at least doing this usually improves whatever I'm trying to work on. (Yeah, my Fender Deluxe 85 SS combo can do it, but I need a better setup, esp for the distortion part.)

 

I can understand the issues about distortion. For a lot of music, it is an important component. I don't think I'd listen to grindcore or death metal music without it, but it could be fun playing that stuff clean. I used to do acoustic thrash metal jams with friends in high school, where a drummer would play with bongos or cans. Hilarious.

 

Don't get me wrong, if I could get away with it, I'd play clean and unplugged forever. But to distortion gives me what I need sometimes. It's like trying to write with nothing but a quill pen and some parchment paper in front of you, yet we have all of this high tech stuff at our disposal.

 

Sometimes it's debates like this that make me want to quit playing. Who cares, really? Just play something cool already, and then I might show you the money.

[A String]

Originally posted by Dr. Taz:

A lot of the time lately, I've been plugging into my 'lil Fender Mini Twin... Works great with my 7 string.

Lucky bastard.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Using good tone playing metal is like putting perfume on a pig, it still stinks and makes fuzzy oink sounds, and the lyrics can't be understood by anyone except demented non musicians.

[Ricardo.]

Don't feed them.

[Gruupi]

......must.......feed..... I can't help it.......mmmuuuussssttt.....fffeeeeeddddd.

[MILLO]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Using good tone playing metal is like putting perfume on a pig, it still stinks and makes fuzzy oink sounds, and the lyrics can't be understood by anyone except demented non musicians.

Hahahahaaa.... This is so ridiculous, it is hilarious.

[doc taz]

Originally posted by A String:

Originally posted by Dr. Taz:

A lot of the time lately, I've been plugging into my 'lil Fender Mini Twin... Works great with my 7 string.

Lucky bastard.

Heh? One can score a Marshall stack... or a tiny Fender tweed that runs on a 9v battery or AC adapter. They sell for about $40 new. I don't know who makes this stuff, but the knob layout's the same as my Mini Twin.

 

Or is it the 7 string, or the fact that my hearing's still fairly intact, which it is.

 

Oh yeah, that last blurb by ellwood's hilarious. I don't think a jazz singer named Jane Monheit would care. She actually likes some hard rock/metal. Nor would electric/classical guitarist Kevin Gallagher , or even Alex Skolnick .

[Trucks]

I love distortion.... In fact I love Uber distortion... Theres no better way to ponder over the finer things in life while calmly hammering out muted chug chug chug's after a hard day at work. Its soul cleansing. Ive recently started learning some grindcore riffs, not because I like the cookie monster grindcore bands.. but because alot of them are quite technical and the techniques used can add flavour to any type of music.

 

I dont think you can hide behind your tone though... If you suck you still suck when highly distorted... It just sounds more distorted. For instance with insane amounts of distortion if you want to hit 2 notes and you fluff one of them you get a god awful clash of sound that makes you dizzy and may very well cause you to vomit.

[A String]

Originally posted by Dr. Taz:

Originally posted by A String:

Originally posted by Dr. Taz:

A lot of the time lately, I've been plugging into my 'lil Fender Mini Twin... Works great with my 7 string.

Lucky bastard.

Heh? One can score a Marshall stack... or a tiny Fender tweed that runs on a 9v battery or AC adapter. They sell for about $40 new. I don't know who makes this stuff, but the knob layout's the same as my Mini Twin.

 

Or is it the 7 string, or the fact that my hearing's still fairly intact, which it is.

It's that seven string of yours. Sweet guitar.

[Griffinator]

Originally posted by Ricardo_F:

Don't feed them.

Biting tongue....

[Xplorer]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Using good tone playing metal is like putting perfume on a pig, it still stinks and makes fuzzy oink sounds, and the lyrics can't be understood by anyone except demented non musicians.

Spoken like a true dumbass, thank you again for not involving intelligence in your completley ingnorent comments. They are at least amusing that way.

 

Originally posted by Tired.Old.Lemon

:

I dont think you can hide behind your tone though... If you suck you still suck when highly distorted... It just sounds more distorted. For instance with insane amounts of distortion if you want to hit 2 notes and you fluff one of them you get a god awful clash of sound that makes you dizzy and may very well cause you to vomit.

Bingo.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Xplorer:

Originally posted by ellwood:

Using good tone playing metal is like putting perfume on a pig, it still stinks and makes fuzzy oink sounds, and the lyrics can't be understood by anyone except demented non musicians.

Spoken like a true dumbass, thank you again for not involving intelligence in your completley ingnorent comments. They are at least amusing that way.

 

Originally posted by Tired.Old.Lemon

:

I dont think you can hide behind your tone though... If you suck you still suck when highly distorted... It just sounds more distorted. For instance with insane amounts of distortion if you want to hit 2 notes and you fluff one of them you get a god awful clash of sound that makes you dizzy and may very well cause you to vomit.

Bingo.

I noticed you used your SNOOZING face again, that must be a graphic example of your normal mental condition. Resorting to name calling again I see, that goes right along with stated mental condition doesn't it.

[Trucks]

You 2 crack me up! I think you should meet up for some fisticuffs. Get it all over and done with

[Xplorer]

Originally posted by Tired.Old.Lemon:

You 2 crack me up! I think you should meet up for some fisticuffs. Get it all over and done with

Good idea, but it wouldn't help. Ellwood will always be a closed minded musical biggot. And I will probubly always be annoyed by his attpemts to elvevate his own prefrences by belittling the preferences of others. He obviously needs a venue to constantly restate his disgust for heavy metal and heavy metal musicians.

[Xplorer]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by Xplorer:

Originally posted by ellwood:

Using good tone playing metal is like putting perfume on a pig, it still stinks and makes fuzzy oink sounds, and the lyrics can't be understood by anyone except demented non musicians.

Spoken like a true dumbass, thank you again for not involving intelligence in your completley ingnorent comments. They are at least amusing that way.

 

Originally posted by Tired.Old.Lemon

:

I dont think you can hide behind your tone though... If you suck you still suck when highly distorted... It just sounds more distorted. For instance with insane amounts of distortion if you want to hit 2 notes and you fluff one of them you get a god awful clash of sound that makes you dizzy and may very well cause you to vomit.

Bingo.

I noticed you used your SNOOZING face again, that must be a graphic example of your normal mental condition. Resorting to name calling again I see, that goes right along with stated mental condition doesn't it.

It's not a SNOOZING face, it's a BORED face. At least that's what it's intended to be. But good burn, you should treat yuorself to something nice for coming out on top on that one.

 

Come on Ellwood, your not fooling anyone. Why are you so threatend by the thought of people enjoying metal? It's ok to not like it, just try not to loose sleep over it.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Well, I have to say that the right turn into metal is not what I was refering to. I mean the average rhythm pop/rock guitar players sound is far more distorted than, say, Hendrix. Not even the solo/lead players, the rhythm guys. Pick any trendy/popy band and listen.

 

Metal is a whole different issue, at least from my point of view in the topic of this conversation. The distortion inherent in that particular sytle of music is a part and parcel OF that music. Not what I am refering to at all.

 

Bill

[Dr. Ellwood]

You are correct sir, I have noticed that too. I have a young band here that I help out with advice and equipment things sometimes and this is a problem for them. The thing is they are not into metal or punk at all and are more into the traditional rock sound and type of material although their material is for the most part originals. Their heros are the rock players of the 60's and 70's and so I got them to really listen close to the tone of these players. It cleand up their overall band sound allot and really brought out their vocals which are VERY good! Yeah that young band is really comming along great. The guitar tone they are using now is all they need and their rehearsals are so much more productive.