Stephen Fortner Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 Steve Fortner here, technical editor of Keyboard magazine. I think this may in fact be my first post on this forum. Want to get y'all thoughts about something for a how-to piece I'm working on. What do keyboardists do, in terms of their rig, technique, etc., that makes life difficult for our fretted bandmates? What do you wish keyboardists would get it together about? I've got my kevlar suit on, so fire away. I can take it! Stephen Fortner Principal, Fortner Media Former Editor in Chief, Keyboard Magazine Digital Piano Consultant, Piano Buyer Magazine Industry affiliations: Antares, Arturia, Giles Communications, MS Media, Polyverse
Guitarzan Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 they don't piss me off. but i think they are less likely to improvise than annoying guitarplayers like myself. but all in all i think they are pretty cool. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will
Bluesape Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 They tend to be more schooled than we are, more up on theory, etc, and they wanna play Elton John covers! Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
Tedster Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 Heya, Doc Evil... One thing that I've noticed about SOME keyboard players, is that a lot of 'em realize "Hey, I don't have to play in a band. I can make more money doing a piano bar gig". In other words, they don't "need us" as badly as we "need them". Puts them in a position to call the shots. Another thing (and this is most likely a direct result of the first thing)... Some (not all) keyboard players have a limited sense of "what is hip"...in other words, we auditioned a keyboard player once (or he auditioned us)...he seemed good, was playing some Little Feat, Dr. John boogie, some Yes type stuff..and we were going "Wow", and then he seamlessly starts playing lounge stuff, like "Feelings"... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
Guitarzan Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 all guitar players should be a little more keyboard player like and all keyboard players should have a little guitar player in them. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will
Squ Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 I don't like when they try to pretend like they're playing guitar. (Keytar, guitar samples, etc... ) Red Red Rockit
Eric Iverson Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 It pisses me off that they can do certain things easily on their instrument that are much harder on guitar! But that's not their fault! Seriously, I have always enjoyed playing with good keyboard players. The only time I've been annoyed with them is when they are condescending to me as a musician because I play guitar, not keyboard. Some of them I think consider us to be little better than musical cavemen! (Speak softly and carry a big club... or a sharp ax!) But once they see that I can read pretty well and know basic theory, they mellow out soon enough. (Note: I am NOT trying to reignite that age old debate about reading music!) In general I have found keyboadists to be gentlemen... maybe some of you have had more negative experiences, but I hope you don't come to hate the whole tribe! PS Not all keyboardists are PHD theory scholars. I played with one guy who read very little, though he did know what notes were in a C chord etc. But he had a great ear and sense of rhythm, usually could play something if you showed it to him once, and is a very fine singer and performer, and could sing beautiful harmonies. Not a virtuoso but he was handy with the arpeggio endings etc. He was fond of asking me and the sax player, "what key is this song in?" He could play it in any key without any sweat! Unfortunately we're not playing together any more, but I sure enjoyed it. Like other guys from a church background, though, it would never occur to him to do an improvised solo, though doubtless he could if he wanted to. I wish me and him and the sax player could have gotten into (short) three way musical conversation on stage and interchanges with the singers, but apparently that's terra incognita...
fantasticsound Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 I've had pretty good luck with keyboard players, but since you asked... As a soundman, my number one complaint with keyboard players is relative volume of patches. If I had a dime for every time a keyboard patch beat the crap out of me (and the audience) because the level was so much hotter (perceptably, if not on the controls) than the previous patch. Other than that my only complaint with keyboard players is when they complain about the sound quality of the keyboard provided by the hotel. You don't like theirs?? Bring your own dumba**! Again, these guys have been few and far between, but early in my career I dealt with them a lot, working for Opryland Productions on small convention entertainment bands at Opryland Hotel most every night. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd
Big Red 67 Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 Hum, keyboardists. I guess that the lack of improv is the greatest drawback. I agree with the patch issue, of course I have heard the same problem with a guitarist with a new line6 pod. And yes bring your own gear just in case! Big Red's Ride Blog
Dr. Ellwood Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 Our keyboard player is great in all ways,a great musiciaan, band member,loyal and allways on time has his parts learned and is a great performer. He keeps his equipment always up to date and stays current on all the keyboard technology but always has a ear to the bands overall sound, he's also a pretty darn good guitarist too, as well as a great sax player and harmonica player. I started out being a piano player and still get to play some things with the band and we switch off occassionally. He is a very good singer also and has done many solo acts in the past but he likes being part of a band. I have worked with lots of keyboard players in the past and always loved it. So here's our guy..meet Kurt! http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b48/ellwood1/Kurt-1.jpg http://www.thestringnetwork.com
King Kamehameha Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 I have gotten a headache from a single note played on a keyboard. Which is not to say from EVERY note on a keyboard. But sometimes they have an annoying sound. "My two Fender Basses, I just call them "Lesbos" because of the time they spend together in the closet."-Durockrolly This has been a Maisie production. (Directed in part by Spiderman)
A String Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 A lot of them seem to lack the ability to improvise. They can play amazingly with sheet music in from of them, but if you take it away, they are lost. The other problem I've had is what do you do, set list wise. There are some songs that don't need keys. With a keyboard player in the band, you either have to write in a key part for EVERY song, or you have to have him sit there with a grin on his face, doing nothing, every once and a while. Maybe that's where Triangle players came from... Craig Stringnetwork on Facebook String Network Forum My Music
Tone Taster Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 as far as negatives/pitfalls, etc . . In Jazz situations, it seems like they feel compelled to throw in every extension known to man In pop/funk/fusion situations, they sometimes get really cornball patches They are louder than guitarists mixwise alot (except in more rock situations, where it is a volume war) Sometimes their comping patterns are all over the place and they won't stick with a groove or a pocket Some of them are so used to solo gigs, that when they play with a band, they leave absolutely zero space for any other rhythm instrument and play the same way as at a solo gig but with the band. Other than that, I love working with really good keyboardists and alot of the music i like to needs them Evidently Mike Stern avoids using keyboardists
alfonso Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 Some of them (just some...) pretend to use ALL(!) of their fingers despite the existence of a bass, guitars etc.... Guess the Amp .... now it's finished... Here it is!
pollock Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 It pisses me off that I'll never be as good at keyboard as them. (The good ones that is) my band: http://www.blujavu.com www.myspace.com/blujavu
Billster Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Usual bandy things like showing up on time, know the tunes/having something to contribute, paying on time... Musically, (I think because the are more often than not trained instead of self-taught) a lot of them have the idea that by default they are the font of a band's musical knowledge, because keyboard players take lessons and stuff. A lot of guitar players take lessons too. Sometimes even drummers take lessons Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?!
henrysb3 Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 I'm kind of a three headed monster here, as I play guitar, keyboards, bass, trumpet and harmonica. I'm not a master of any of them, but have a level of competance on the first three that each role takes about one third of my playing time. One issue is that keyboards take a lot of space on small stages, sometimes nearly as much as a drum kit. Neil's observation about the volume differences between patches is something I have to pay attention to all the time. I only use a handful of patches, but the organ ones in particular tend to blast if you play at the same volume as a piano patch. As a keyboardist, you can really make friends with the guitar player by insisting on playing songs in F, B, Bb and F#. He not busy being born Is busy dyin'. ...Bob Dylan
SlyFoxx Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Damn newbie questions. (OK I play some keys too....read: I know the chords and can play them in time.) You play an instrument. Show up (on time), know when to play and (more importantly) when not to. Listen. Know your part. Get over the fact that you'll NEVER be as cool as the guitar player. (Me!) Since you don't have to tune or break/change strings...get off your butt and go get me a F'ing beer! make friends with the guitar player by insisting on playing songs in F, B, Bb and F#Yeah....you gotta auto transpose function! Must be nice! OK...I'll try and be even more helpful tomorrow when I sober up!
Big Red 67 Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by SlyFoxx: You play an instrument. Show up (on time), know when to play and (more importantly) when not to. Listen. Know your part. Get over the fact that you'll NEVER be as cool as the guitar player. (Me!) Since you don't have to tune or break/change strings...get off your butt and go get me a F'ing beer! Yeah....you gotta auto transpose function! Must be nice! OK...I'll try and be even more helpful tomorrow when I sober up! Okay we solved the problem of what the keys player should do when he isn't playing, get beer. hehe Big Red's Ride Blog
GuitarPlayerFL Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Hmmm...I'm a keyboardist in training so I'm treading the line but.... Guys that take over at least 1/2 the stage with their rig. Guys that insist on using a real Hammond and real Rhodes....and insist you help them move it all. A Jazz/Chord Melody Master-my former instructor www.robertconti.com (FKA GuitarPlayerSoCal)
Rampdog Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Hammond B3's... Helping to lug those beasts up stairs, into trucks, down long halls, lifting up onto stages, all the room they take up...I love the sound they have but my back will never be the same... But there's nothing like a full keyboard sound behind ya.... If it ain't fun...why do it...? http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=778394&content=music
picker Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Keyboarders don't bother me at all. All the ones I've worked with have been good guys. Now horn players, that's another story... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
Tone Taster Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by GuitarPlayerSoCal: Guys that insist on using a real Hammond and real Rhodes....and insist you help them move it all. For that sound, I will help them move anyday. I love hauling equipment. I like the functional strength workout
A String Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by yZeCounsel: I love hauling equipment.Man, where were you when we were loading our PA stacks up and down stairs? Craig Stringnetwork on Facebook String Network Forum My Music
Tone Taster Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by Picker: Now horn players, that's another story... Horn Players, They just stand around while the songs playing, and then just solo - then go back to standing around - - And still want to get paid !!!!
Dr. Ellwood Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by yZeCounsel: Originally posted by Picker: Now horn players, that's another story... Horn Players, They just stand around while the songs playing, and then just solo - then go back to standing around - - And still want to get paid !!!! Yeah! best ones are also keyboard players-harmonica players and poke in sax parts for added measure!! like our guy, no standing around then! http://www.thestringnetwork.com
Tedster Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by guitarzan: and all keyboard players should have a little guitar player in them. Especially if they're a lady keyboard player. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
Eric Iverson Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by yZeCounsel: Originally posted by Picker: Now horn players, that's another story... Horn Players, They just stand around while the songs playing, and then just solo - then go back to standing around - - And still want to get paid !!!! If they "just solo", it might be because no thought was given to arrangements where they might contribute to the band sound in that way. And a good horn player can play harmonies to vocals, and might even be able to come up with a nice harmony part to a guitar part! (Just mentioning the possibility!) I don't think any musician comes to a gig hoping to only do a short solo on every fifth tune, and then stand around twiddling their thumbs! Horn players love music and playing music the same as we do! But what are they going to do, noodle aimlessly behind vocals and guitar solos?? Sit down with the guy, pool your resources, and come up with a better situation for BOTH of you!
picker Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by yZeCounsel: Originally posted by Picker: Now horn players, that's another story... Horn Players, They just stand around while the songs playing, and then just solo - then go back to standing around - - And still want to get paid !!!! Worse that that is when they refuse to stand around between horn breaks, but rather do fills everywhere they shouldn't. I worked with a sax player once that just had to get 50 cents in when he should have tried for 5. What's more, he was the last to join the band and somehow came to the conclusion that it was his band, and we were all sipposed to do what he said. Between that and him constantly harping on how many thousands of dollars he had tied up in his horns, I got sick of him really quick. But, the last straw was when he mixed down the CD we recorded, because he was the only one who could be there that night. Guess who was out in front of everything with a great sound, while everything else was in the bcakground with a flat, dry tone? There may be horn players out there with great skills and better attitude, but I am leery of them all these days. Let 'em play jazz. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
Flemtone Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 My only problem has been, as a bass player, playing with a keyboardist with an excessive left hand. The bassline is covered already. That's what I get payed for. We've been lucky to have several keyboard players over the years in the Flemtones, and none of them have had this problem, but I've done a pretty wide variety of side-gigs and 'hired gun' work, and it's tough to get the idea across to many keys players that there are actually other musicians on stage that cover various parts. I can see the problem, as I play piano in my copious free time ( ), to help me keep up with theory and chord construction (always looking for a different bassline for a given chord progression). The left hand just kinda 'comes with the territory'. Some keyboardists take this to extremes, though. In a Motown song with a simple driving bassline, why would a keyboardist try to run a Vic Wooten bassline with his left hand? Perhaps a Bungee cord might impress a little restraint. I had a keyboardist at reahearsal one time that said "That song's a breeze. I could play that with one hand". My response? "Please do!" Tie your left hand behind your back. I'm working this side of the street! peace, Tim from Jersey Play. Just play.
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