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The Theory Thread Ideas


A String

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Ok guys, on the request of a few of you, I've added a Theory Thread. I've already started adding things.

 

A question for the beginners:

 

What stuff do you want to see here? I can't promise you that all requests will be added, as it's important to keep the thread uncluttered, but we'll see how it goes.

 

For the advanced players:

 

What stuff would you like to see, or think is important to have up there, for beginners? Once again, I can't promise every idea will make it, but there are several very basic principles that should probably be added...

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For beginners, we get asked about modes a lot (which you took care of already, although I have no idea why that is a beginner question), scales, and common chord progressions.

 

For more advanced folks, I'd like to see more on harmony and lead tones. I think most people, myself included, just sort of make up stuff that "sounds good" rather than thinking about the diminishments (is that a word?), the progressions, and the cadences.

 

But so far, I like it, Astring. :thu:

Shut up and play.
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Hehe Revolead, I was gonna suggest modes for the advanced players, but I see you sent me back to beginners class. Good start on the thread A-String. This will be a good reference tool. Something that I really struggle with on modal playing isn't just what notes are in the particular mode, but the real application of when to play these notes in the overall harmonic context. I am trying to use my ear and that helps, but Iv'e never seen much discussion in any of the theory books/lessons Iv'e seen on how and when to use modes. Maybe links to musical examples of what they sound like. I am surprised GPTV doesn't have all this basic information on file yet.
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Gruupi, as I said before, I agree with you. Modes are an advanced tool. Problem is that beginners get bored with minor blues and major scales, so they want to play Phyrgian metal or harmonic minor flamenco when they can't even play a B minor. It's insane. I only made that comment because we seem to get a lot of beginners asking about them around here.
Shut up and play.
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Yeah, revolead hits the nail on the head regarding modes.

 

I've been wondering, (I'll learn this in college in less than two months anyways :D ) how do you go about naming chords? And if that's much too complex, what do I have to learn before that? I've got intervals, major and minor scales down for sure, and the rest of what I know is informal, off-the-internet, incomplete etc.

 

As to what I mean by naming chords, how could I say, look at the notes in a chord, and name it that way? How do you tell whether it's an inversion of a chord or a different chord entirely?

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I think people ask about modes because they don't understand them, they seem mysterious to them and think they're missing out on like well I guess it is 6/7's of the music available to them to make.

 

Modes are just to scales what inversions are to chords. It isn't advanced and I'd bet people that ask about them, once they understand what is going on and that in all likelihood they aren't mising out on 6/7ths of the music available to them, would either realize they are using them already or that they are no big deal. Especially if the are working off visual memory and geometric patterns.

 

At the risk of appearing "shamelessly self promoting", I recommend looking at the other recent mode thread started by Bbach and the cycle of fifth's thread, for "useful" theory stuff, or at least interesting and that which comes up from time to time.

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http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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Good thoughts on modes also, musicalhair. I was taught of modes as scale "inversions" from day one, so when I picked up guitar (I played trumpet for years before), learning modes was the last thing on my mind.

 

A String - musicalhair reminded me we absolutely need something on chord inversions. When I learned about chord inversions in basic theory in college, my composing and songwriting expanded tenfold. Granted, I had been practicing inversions, but having someone explain all of it helps tremendously, especially since you can't even play many barre chords on guitar without using an inversion.

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Naming chords has two aspects of it. Looking at the chord "statically" and looking at the chord in it's musical context or where it was coming from and where it is going.

 

First and most easily you look for stacked thirds. If you are in the Key of C, don't think C D E F G A B C, think C E G B D F A C.

 

If you see these notes in a chord: B D G D, and you need to name it, rearrange the notes into stacked thirds. The B is a third below D (see the rearranged C scale above), but the G is a third below the B, So re-spelt in ascending thirds the chord is G B D with the other D just being a doubled note and for naming purposes is ignored.

 

F# B D G stacks up the same way with the F# as the Major 7.

 

Why major or minor. Compare C E G, and D F A. IT is two steps from C to E but only a step and a half from D to F. This shows the two kinds of thirds, the "minor" is a step and a half and the major is a step. So a chord (or a triad) is either major or minor based on the first third up from the root.

 

In the major scale the funny thing is as you stack up thirds "twice" to get a full triad or a chord, we get root, third fifth. Ok that isn't funny but the funny part is in the seven chords we have in any major scale, the "fifth" is always the same distance from the root except in one case (the B chord in the key of C, and similar "vii" chords in any major key). That root and "perfect" fifth is your power chord. The fifth above B in the key of C is a half step short of a perfect fifth (the "Tritone" or three full steps up from the root, built by two minor thirds). The perfect fifth is built up from the root via an minor and a major third stacked on top of each other or a minor and a major stacked on top of each other.

 

What is a dominant? If we stack another third on these triads we find another funny thing. Each time the minor triad gets another third stacked on top if it, you get a whole step below the root of the chord. D, F, A, C and your just a step down from the octave from the root of your chord which is a D minor 7. E G B D and you get an E minor 7. A C E G and you have an A minor 7. Two of the three major triads yeild a major seventh C E G B and F A C E are both major seventh chords. The G major triad has a problem. It is Forced into the same problem that the B triad in C has, that going up from B to the fifth only gets you a half step short of the perfect fifth. G B D F is a major triad with a "minored" seventh. We call this the "Dominant" seventh chord.

 

WE call it that because G is the Dominant of C. Now that we talked about the name of chords statically, we get into their "functions".

 

Each chord has a job. You can tell what a chord is and how to name when you see the job it does. Music has meaning, that meaning comes from the directions the notes move in and the directions they want to move in.

 

Getting into chord functions can get deep-- and long as in how much typing most be done.

 

I'll leave it at this.

 

in C we have seven chords.

 

C major the I or the Tonic, this is home. It is a good place to start and when you return to it, it should sound like you finished a paragraph in an essay.

 

G the Dominant. When playing in C and you get to a G, there is often a hightened tension, and specifically it is that the B wants so badly to slide up into C (home) and the D wants to slide up into E the third of C or down to C (home). How you build to this tension and resolve this tension is what music is all about.

 

The F major is called the subdominant. It is a tranistional chord. It doesn't sound like C or feel like it but it isn't creating any tension so much that needs resolving. It most often leads to a dominant chord.

 

Now, if we look a third down or up from any of these chords we realize that we have basically the same chord with a new root. A minor is like C major and subs for it, sometimes right after it, sometimes faking you out after a G dominant 7 in a "deceptive" cadence. G major wants to resove to C major right? When it doesn't sometimes you call it a deceptive cadence (especially when going to an A minor or dare I even suggest it an Ab major) In either even the A can be thought of as subing for the C

 

the D minor similarly subs for the F major. I blues we have I IV V and in jazz they talk about ii V I.

 

The E minor subs for C also, it is essentially a C major 7 without the root, and so it functions the same way. It feels almost like home. A chord change of C maj, E minor, C major, A minor, C major is like no chord change at all.

 

The B chord is inherently unstable, is screams for resolution. That "diminished" fifth, a half step short of a perfect fifth is harsh. It is so dissonnant to the uninitiated ear that it represents the furthest from "home" we can get. It's dissonance is the reason we play a G dominant 7, we want it to really drive home the resolution or the return home.

 

IF we can add the 7th to the G chord, and we can talk about major and minor seventh chords, we can add more notes to chords. The more we add and the more we leave out from what we have available to any chord, the more complicated it gets. At that point it often makes more sense to look at what the chord is doing and where the voices are going than it does to just look for stacked thirds.

 

*** I'm editing to fix something *** Ab, F, B, Eb may look like it is ... well a mess but it if you see it change into G E B D you might see it as a G dominant 7 b9 #5 changing to a C major 9. No roots at all in either chord, but I'm going by the "function" they are serving. *** more editing*** An example of "function" is that in the G 7b9#5 I'm calling the Eb the #5, but thatis because it is enharmonically D#. Calling it Eb was a choice I made so that I didn't have to call the D in the C chord a D natural. ***end edit*** Pulling an abstract example like that is not showing the context, but for now if you don't get it just trust that apparently odd chords like those could and often do function as I describe.

 

Real complicated naming of chords by function will have be for another time. It only really matters for analysis or for playing jazz.

 

I'll spell check this later.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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I think there are some excellent ideas here. I suggest that someone might want to cut/paste some of the in-depth discussions TO the new thread that where covered in the past. I would like to show new players all the neat possibilities for solos contained within the barr chord structures, I think new players have a tendency to move the length of the fret board searching for lead patterns when those patterns are beneath their fingers within the chords themselves, minimal movement to accomplish the same thing. [EDIT] sorry I see you are already doing the cut/paste idea.
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Thanks for putting this thread together A String!! This is awesome.

I know that something I'm struggling with right now is recognizing modes that players are soloing in. Perhaps I'm getting too caught up in modes and really don't need to know this but it seems to be important, doesn't it?

I'm also trying to put solo's together using several positions to cover a lot of the fret board.

Any help with this would be great.

 

Jason

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I'd like to see a more guitar-centric discussion of inversions, but here's a theory-only explanation.

 

From a purely theoretical standpoint, inversions are simple to explain.

 

First you need to understand triads and 7th chords. For example, C E G is a C major triad, and C E G B is a Cmaj7 7th chord. (See the discussion on triads and 7th chords for more information.)

 

An inversion just changes the order of the notes in a chord -- from lowest to highest pitch -- in a specific way.

 

To invert the C major triad, we move the C -- the root -- up an octave, giving us E G C. Now the E -- the 3rd -- is in the bottom or bass position.

 

We can invert the triad again, raising the 3rd up an octave, too. In this example we'd have G C E, with the 5th (G) now in the bass position.

 

The first example of inversion is called -- ta da -- first inversion (E G C). The other, G C E, is second inversion. If we try for a third inversion with a triad, we end up where we started, C E G, or normal form.

 

This can be represented numerically as well, with 1 representing the root , 3 for 3rd and 5 for 5th:

 Normal form:  1 3 5
1st inversion: 3 5 1
2nd inversion: 5 1 3 

With 7th chords, there are four pitches so you can have a third inversion.

 Normal form:  1 3 5 7   C E G B
1st inversion: 3 5 7 1   E G B C
2nd inversion: 5 7 1 3   G B C E
3rd inversion: 7 1 3 5   B C E G 

Now, from the "chord naming" discussion, it is possible that the same notes used in an inversion can also name a different chord. For example, Am7 in first inversion is C E G A, which is also a C6 chord. So, which is the proper notation for those notes? It depends on how they are being used in the song.

 

So, the next time you see a TAB or sheet music with guitar chord symbols, and you see the fingerings for a C6 chord but it is labeled Am7, you'll know it's not a typo but really Am7 in first inversion.

 

In a more general sense, a voicing is a particular arrangement of chord tones. Inversions are a kind of voicings. For the C6 chord, maybe the 5th isn't played by the guitar -- C E A -- but by another instrument. At that moment in time a C6 is being played by the ensemble, but the voicing given to the guitarist is C6(no 5). If you're looking at a score you'll probably see C6. If you're looking at just the guitar part, it may say C6(no 5) or may still say C6 and give the voicing with a guitar chord symbol.

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Things change here all the time but this is one of the best innovations I've seen since the Ask Myles thread (& considerably easier to navigate).

Ao many of these topics get discussed repeatedly but not all the site's commenters are there for each rehash so relevant ideas often get missed in some cases.

:thu:

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Hey Big Red, what do you want to know about modulations? Reason I ask is that I can go on and on about considerations for modulating when one is composing, but if you're wondering about like recognizing it while playing something or something ... well along the lines of interpretation when encountering it or something, it would be a different thing to type out.

 

Just in general, always be aware of other keys any chord you're playing might coexist in. Often you'll get at least eight measures of a melody or a chance to establish the main theme before people start tweaking things. Often you'll see chromaticisms sneak into the chords you're playing to go along with the melody being changed. These may not really lead anywhere and might just end up being like "half candences" hanging out on shakey harmonic ground at the end of a melodic phrase, only to go right back "home". It is very often playfully done in a lot of Guiliani studies and stuff from the classical era.

 

These things develop melodically the same as any other aspect of melodic development would. Like look at any melodic line. When a melodic phrase ends on the tonic, you have a real feeling of closure and if that is supported by the chords then you really feel like an idea if finished. Often when a melodic phrase ends on the third or the fifth, you can interpret that as being something like the end of a sentence but not the end of a paragraph. The more away from the I chord of a key the melodic phrase ends, the unsettled the music usually feels. Bringing in chromaticisms or hinting at new keys can often be done in the same manner. It doesn't always mean a commitment to a new key for any length of time.

 

When a real overt modulation occurs, look for common chords (from the old key to the new key) and for chromaticisms in the chords creating an unstable harmonic setting. This instability can be used and pushed into the audiences' ears in a lot of ways, diminished triads and diminished seventh chords (same thing as a dominant 7 b9 chord with out the root), and various dominant types of chords (in harmony books the stuff about neopolitan, german italian and french 6th chords is really just getting really specific about the spelling of these destabilization techniques) all set up the establishment of the new key which is most often "cadenced" into.

 

In Baroque music they don't often do any of that bombastic stuff to hammer your ear into accepting a new key. You'll often see sequences shift into new keys seemlessly. Here is a sequence: C A B G A B G A, B G A F G A F G, A F G E F G E F

 

In Baroque music it was considered distasteful to repeat a sequence more than three times, so I'll stop there. In that sequence we stay in C-- it may sound like crap I'm just typing it as an example-- but we could have done it this way: C A B G A B G A, B G# A F# G# A F# G#, A F G E F G E F; or C A B G A B G A, B G A F# G A F# G, A F# G E F# G E F#, or anything. The sequence is a great modulating device because it takes advantage of our ear's acceptance of things it has heard already. Once you have a sequencable pattern you can repeat it up or down and you can repeat it with a key or repeat it "interval for interval" which often forces it into a new key at least briefly. The other voices have to go along for the ride regardless of key change or not.

 

Sequences and breif trips into other keys without really establishing them is common in all baroque music especially fugues and sonatas, classical sonatas, and everywhere else. The B section of the jazz tune "Have You Met Miss Jones" is a killer example of skipping through keys quickly.

 

I don't know if this gets what you want, but say more about what you want and I'm sure someone will hook you up.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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Cool stuff, MH! A cool reminder that there ARE more ways to modulate than just going to the fifth of the new key! I wish I still had my college theory textbook; I may have to look for one at the library, or even, God forbid, BUY one.. (yes I'm kidding).

 

One great tune to study seamlessly going from one key to another is "All The Things You Are". Gotta tape those changes sometime soon.

 

Is it just me, or is the propensity of some church bands to modulate seemingly on EVERY tune, two or three times, sort of overdone?? I remember one tune that modulated 6 times! Give me a freakin' break already!

 

Then again, better modulate than never....

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I'm glad you dug it. Cadencing in is still probably the best we if you're like composing a song and really need to go to a new key. Bridges and solos and ending are real effectively done that way, sneaking in would defeat the change of mood that the key change is often all about.

 

When I was typing out the part about using sequences, I thought about the idea that one could get into polytonality via sequences. If were writing for two voices, I'm sure you could see how you could run one voice off into a new key while not moving or moving elsewhere with the other.

 

But dude, you sold your college text books?!?!?! Nooooo!

 

Changing keys six times in a song might be needless, but the best use of these kinds of ideas is when you only realize it when you're trying to learn the song. I think if someone says wow that was a cool whole tone run, then I've sort of not done it right-- I'd rather sneak that stuff into people ears withou their noticing it, and if the melody and phrasing is right then noone will think it is "jazzy" or "out" or "odd" or anything.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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