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Does America Have a Malnourished Listening Audience?


Tone Taster

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Originally posted by Starcaster:

The Beatles wouldn't make it? Don't you remember recently that that one 'Beatles One' Greatest Hits CD was a huge hit? In fact: "The collection, released on November 13, 2000 (see 2000 in music), sold 3.6 million units in its first week and more than 12 million in three weeks worldwide, becoming the fastest selling album of all time and the biggest selling of 2000. The collection also premiered at #1 in the U.S. and other countries." There's no need to be so pessimistic.

 

The question really is, would they be allowed/have the opportunity to progress from "She Loves You" to "I Am The Walrus"? It's not likely, the industry doesn't work that way anymore.
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Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Because of the era of fast food, TV, and now computers/internet I think we are quickly creating a society of ADHD.

 

Personally I don't believe in ADHD. I think it is BS. We live in an instant gratification society. I swear if I see one more guy or girl tell me they have ADHD I am going to OD on ritalin (I hear it is a cool buzz--just kdidin)

 

I think this 'dumbing' is a result of us training ourselves to only respond to something if it comes immediatly. We have lost patience. Now with the internet this problem has expanded exponentially. People no longer have the attention spans they had. Remember everyone would talk about how TV was numbing people's minds? It has gotten worse.

 

Image is everything, and the music has to be completely accesible instantly or it won't be bothered with. Everything is like that now. Quick gimme gimme, ok bye.

Agreed. I don't think it's that much different from what it "used to be", but I think it more so now. And I honestly don't think it's the fact I'm getting old.

 

It's just the nature of the new era of communications.

"Without music, life would be a mistake."

--from 'Beyond Good and Evil', by Friedrich Nietzsche

 

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Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Yeah but certainly I meant if they had never come out, and weren't riding the legacy they have today.

Agreed. Starcaster: your post is NOT really a valid counter-argument, since the Beatles are hardly anything new. Rock isn't a new thing either.

 

The only big act that comes even ever-so-slightly close, in my opinion, is Radiohead, which IS in fact a huge success.

"Without music, life would be a mistake."

--from 'Beyond Good and Evil', by Friedrich Nietzsche

 

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Thats a good question Justus. Would everything from Revolver and later even been released in todays environment of stick with what got you there. Whats funny to me is that the recording industry in England was as commercial and conservative as anything today, how was it that the Beatles were allowed to break out of the 3 minute singles and an album every 3 months to writing and recording Sgt. Pepper as a concept album. I bet the executives were shitting in their pants thinking that the album would flop because it was different.
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Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

I beg this question because why is it that a majority of cats who write the more sophisticated music forms (and one that groove, btw) such as Marcus Miller, Scott Henderson, Richie Kotzen, Greg Howe, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Billy Cobham, etc . . .

 

Have to constantly tour Europe, South America?

 

Why do they always say they wish they could be playing in the States, but cannot afford to?

 

If America doesn't have a dumbed down listening public, then is it because the airplay promotion wizards want people to have their "McDonaldland" music in a box -- good to go in 2 minutes and 30 seconds and Both the kids and the adults like it?

Frankly, I find it insulting that you and others on this board are acting like other parts of the world are so superior to America simply because of THIS or THAT! It almost seems as though it is America bashing in disguise. America is NOT I repeat NOT made up of dummies, so try to take the insulting remarks somewhere else, OK?

 

Get a clue, not everyone in America is falling for what the music industry is trying to shove down the publics throat! And a LOT of people are starting to realize that most of what is being played nowdays in America is actually "copies" of hits that were big in the 60s and 70s.

 

What the music industry has done, is realize that there is a whole "new" generation of young people that never grew up with the beatles, led zepplin or many "classic rock" or pop groups and hit songs....so they use the exact same song that made money in the early years and then put some popular singer with a rap or hip hop beat to the lyrics and you have a ready made hit. Frankly, it makes me want to throw up!

 

But not everyone is falling prey to this, as there are some "old timers" that can remember what the originals sounded like. Like another poster said earlier....his daughter actually liked the "new" version of whatever sounded like the beatles...but as for me, I would rather have the original group.

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Originally posted by Squ:

Here we go again... insulting the youth... Nothing's ever as good as it was... Everyone's music is so worse than mine... the radio sucks so it must mean all music made by everybody who wasn't around in teh 70s sucks... It's not about the music any more... Not like the good ole days... blah blah blah...

Well if music from the 60s and 70s WAS so horrible, then why are music companies wanting to have the latest rap or hip hop versions of them?

 

It seems that the music they copy HAD to have some kind of selling power even today, or they would not even bother with trying to sell it....all over again in a new form.

 

 

But it sounds like you are the one that is insulting, because you act like something old has absolutely no value or meaning anymore. But I think the bucks the record companies are making from past hits with a new beat would prove that wrong.

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Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Corporate America becomes more and more separate from the working class America. It spoon feeds us. I agree picker.

That is a VERY important point in the discussion. There is a VAST difference in what "Corporate America" thinks and what "Working Class America" thinks. Good Point.

 

It is the commercialism that usually wins out though and usually the reason we have some of the music we have now.

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Originally posted by Starcaster:

Correct, my post is NOT really a valid counter-argument. I suppose in my angry internet haze I assumed that the statement was regarding the Beatles, not experimental music in general.

By the way....COOL PIC in your avatar!
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Originally posted by webe123:

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Corporate America becomes more and more separate from the working class America. It spoon feeds us. I agree picker.

That is a VERY important point in the discussion. There is a VAST difference in what "Corporate America" thinks and what "Working Class America" thinks. Good Point.

 

It is the commercialism that usually wins out though and usually the reason we have some of the music we have now.

Well, this is my opinion....

 

Yes, there is a difference. However, "Corporate America" certainly KNOWS what "Working Class America" likes. If not, they wouldn't be making a profit out of it... would they? One could even argue that the "Corporate" one takes what the "other America" thinks and expands on it, even to tell them WHAT to think and/or like. Some poeple follow these er... "instructions", some people don't. If a strategy doesn't work by not getting most people's attention, they'll change it. This is called "marketing".

 

Again, the vicious cycle... you'll try to sell your product by identifying the needs or desires of your potential clientele. You create a campaign based on these needs and/or wants, and expand on them to give them a certain flavor. It's business and marketing and how they work. I don't think there is anything new or unexpected here.

 

If you look at TV and magazine ads, you'll notice how many of them are not suggesting to buy their products by listing their advantages, but telling you SHOULD buy their product, or that you don't crap by not buying their product, or that those who don't own it somehow are at a lower level, or that you should be different and unique by buying their thing, etc.

 

Again, I'm not exactly complaining, just giving my opinion on how I think it works.

 

The important thing is to be 'aware' and try not to become a crazy consumer who'll do anything your TV set/internet/Rolling Stone or Vogue magazine will tell you to do.

"Without music, life would be a mistake."

--from 'Beyond Good and Evil', by Friedrich Nietzsche

 

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Originally posted by MILLO:

Originally posted by webe123:

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Corporate America becomes more and more separate from the working class America. It spoon feeds us. I agree picker.

That is a VERY important point in the discussion. There is a VAST difference in what "Corporate America" thinks and what "Working Class America" thinks. Good Point.

 

It is the commercialism that usually wins out though and usually the reason we have some of the music we have now.

Yes, there is a difference. However, "Corporate America" certainly KNOWS what "Working Class America" likes. If not, they wouldn't be making a profit out of it... would they? One could even argue that the "Corporate" one takes what the "other America" thinks and expands on it, even to tell them WHAT to think and/or like.

 

Again, the vicious cycle. It's business and marketing and how they work. I don't think there is anything new or unexpected here.

Actually "Corporate America" only THINKS they know what "Working America" likes! They DO NOT know obviously.

 

I would bet money that if you took a pole of how many people actually bought music because they actually liked it or it was the "only choice comercially available" you would probably find the latter choice to be the one they bought music for. NOT because they actually preferred that music.... but because it was what they were spoon fed by the music industry as "good".

 

That is a HUGE difference than just people actually liking the stuff.

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Originally posted by webe123:

Originally posted by MILLO:

Originally posted by webe123:

quote:

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Corporate America becomes more and more separate from the working class America. It spoon feeds us. I agree picker.
That is a VERY important point in the discussion. There is a VAST difference in what "Corporate America" thinks and what "Working Class America" thinks. Good Point.

 

It is the commercialism that usually wins out though and usually the reason we have some of the music we have now.
Yes, there is a difference. However, "Corporate America" certainly KNOWS what "Working Class America" likes. If not, they wouldn't be making a profit out of it... would they? One could even argue that the "Corporate" one takes what the "other America" thinks and expands on it, even to tell them WHAT to think and/or like.

 

Again, the vicious cycle. It's business and marketing and how they work. I don't think there is anything new or unexpected here.
Actually "Corporate America" only THINKS they know what "Working America" likes! They DO NOT know obviously.

 

I would bet money that if you took a pole of how many people actually bought music because they actually liked it or it was the "only choice comercially available" you would probably find the latter choice to be the one they bought music for. NOT because they actually preferred that music.... but because it was what they were spoon fed by the music industry as "good".

Well, in this case you presented, "Corporate America" is TELLING "Working Class America" what to like, and the "WCA" is responding by saying "yes".

 

I just think it's the nature of how things work, economically speaking.

 

Anyway, that's my opinion and/or experience ...from reading mags, books, and listening tomy students' arguments and impressions about music, hearing what people have to say about the various styles of music I've played or attempted to play, etc. It obviously "shouldn't" be your opinion. If I thought it SHOULD be yours, I'd be behaving like "Corporate America", to which I don't belong, as my bank account can attest ;) .

"Without music, life would be a mistake."

--from 'Beyond Good and Evil', by Friedrich Nietzsche

 

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Originally posted by webe123:

Originally posted by Squ:

Here we go again... insulting the youth... Nothing's ever as good as it was... Everyone's music is so worse than mine... the radio sucks so it must mean all music made by everybody who wasn't around in teh 70s sucks... It's not about the music any more... Not like the good ole days... blah blah blah...

Well if music from the 60s and 70s WAS so horrible, then why are music companies wanting to have the latest rap or hip hop versions of them?

 

It seems that the music they copy HAD to have some kind of selling power even today, or they would not even bother with trying to sell it....all over again in a new form.

 

 

But it sounds like you are the one that is insulting, because you act like something old has absolutely no value or meaning anymore. But I think the bucks the record companies are making from past hits with a new beat would prove that wrong.

Actually, I never said anything abou the music from the 60s or 70s sounding horrible, if you inferred it from my post somewhere you didn't chance the hugely sarcastic tone. I don't know how the hell you then came to the conclusion that I "act like something old has absolutely no value or meaning anymore." While this doesn't really matter: I love music from the 60s and 70s, those decades contain the majority of my favorite music. What I was saying was that good stuff is still happening and being created, and I was taking a poke at people who insult "today's music," basing their opinion on what they hear from Clear Channel radio stations.
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Originally posted by webe123:

so try to take the insulting remarks somewhere else, OK?

show me in the first post where a remark was made

 

I was asking questions

 

I guess you validated part of an answer based on your reading comprehension ability

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Originally posted by Squ:

What I was saying was that good stuff is still happening and being created, and I was taking a poke at people who insult "today's music," basing their opinion on what they hear from Clear Channel radio stations.

Well from your other post, it sounded like you were somehow against music from the early days because you only preferred todays music. Sorry for the mixup.

 

But as far as todays music, yes, it is true that good music is being created...BUT when you are talking about COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE music, then your choices are much more limited today than in the 60s and 70s and even up into the 80s.

 

I think people are pointing out the commercial stuff is really getting bad. Not that there is no great music today. I don't know where you get that from.

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Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by webe123:

so try to take the insulting remarks somewhere else, OK?

show me in the first post where a remark was made

 

I was asking questions

 

I guess you validated part of an answer based on your reading comprehension ability

Gee throw insults instead of try to be civil? How stupid. YOU are the one that said AND I QUOTE:

 

"If America doesn't have a dumbed down listening public"

 

....now it sounds to ME like you are trying to be insulting at all americans and do it under the guise of..."gee I was only asking questions!" Yeah, with a little dirt thown in! It sounds as though you have an axe to grind. But I guess your reading comphension does not let you see that!

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Okay, so I was an asshole, and I'll try not to be from here on out.

 

I guess I am wrong. We really have this true free-market economy and it really is people's freedom of choice.

 

Market manipulation premises tied in with big corporate credit write-offs are for those "on the fringe" conspiracy cooks.

 

If you don't think America really hasn't been dumbed down in more than just musical respects, you should see what an 8th grade final exam for math looked like in the late 19th century

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Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

If you don't think America really hasn't been dumbed down in more than just musical respects, you should see what an 8th grade final exam for math looked like in the late 19th century

Ok. And how many people in the late 19th century even made it to the 8th grade?
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Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by Hard Tail:

Ok. And how many people in the late 19th century even made it to the 8th grade?

Don't know, how many?
I'm just saying that unless you were rich during that time, you didn't stand much of a chance to make it to 8th grade to even take the math test.

 

Now, if you want to be a smart ass, go ahead. It's your thread.

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Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Okay, so I was an asshole, and I'll try not to be from here on out.

 

I guess I am wrong. We really have this true free-market economy and it really is people's freedom of choice.

 

Market manipulation premises tied in with big corporate credit write-offs are for those "on the fringe" conspiracy cooks.

 

If you don't think America really hasn't been dumbed down in more than just musical respects, you should see what an 8th grade final exam for math looked like in the late 19th century

If you are being real in your apology, why are you STILL acting like an ass?

 

Also, I still think you have some sort of axe to grind with America. What is your problem with America anyway? How is it that it is the ONLY country in your spotlight? You mean you can't think of another country that does not have problems? You must be living in a fantasy world.

 

I am sure there are other countries that have FAR worse problems than just what america has. You want to talk about education? It is non-exsistant in some parts of the world. "dumbed down"? Well at LEAST we have a standard that we "dumbed down" from! Some countries do not even provide basic education! Get a grip!

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we live in a world where it is hard to go anywhere without running into a stupid person. hell, i have seen a few today when i was out.

there were some on TV last night.

is it an invasion?

here is what i do (after i am done rambling like an old man)..

i go to the store when i am looking to buy something new. i know what i like and i look for what pleases me.

i am not really concerned what disposable CD's the "mindless" are buying.

i am more concerned of what I want.

i think the Video has done more damage than anything.

but it has created lots of sales.

i don't think any paticular country has cornered the market on stupid people.

so relax.

i sometimes think my area has a large number of them though. :D

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Originally posted by Hard Tail:

I'm just saying that unless you were rich during that time, you didn't stand much of a chance to make it to 8th grade to even take the math test.

That makes sense, I just didn't infer that from your previous post

Originally posted by webe123:

 

Also, I still think you have some sort of axe to grind with America. What is your problem with America anyway? How is it that it is the ONLY country in your spotlight?

Because there are Americans producing some great music which falls upon deaf ears throughout the states (due to market manipulation) but is in high demand in other parts of the world.

 

We are supposed to be a free market, but if that were true- we should be able to press our own CD's, contract via a P & D deal (pressing and distribution) w/ a major and then tale out a corporate loan to pay off an independent promoter who gets it on the air

 

You cannot TOUCH an independent promoter unless you are signed up w/the big boys.

 

If that doesn't happen, you get no airplay

 

If you think that is free market, go for it.

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Originally posted by Guitarzan:

we live in a world where it is hard to go anywhere without running into a stupid person. hell, i have seen a few today when i was out.

there were some on TV last night.

is it an invasion?

here is what i do (after i am done rambling like an old man)..

i go to the store when i am looking to buy something new. i know what i like and i look for what pleases me.

i am not really concerned what disposable CD's the "mindless" are buying.

i am more concerned of what I want.

i think the Video has done more damage than anything.

but it has created lots of sales.

i don't think any paticular country has cornered the market on stupid people.

so relax.

i sometimes think my area has a large number of them though. :D

Well, I think there are far worse problems though, than having a stupid entertainment industry that pumps out crap songs for the public to put up with.

 

That is why I adressed the last post I made to ZeCounsel. I felt it was necessary to set the record straight. If he wants to complain about americans being dumbed down, then he also ought to take a look at countries that don't provide decent basic education or enough food to feed their people. That to me, is far worse than just an entertainment industry gone crazy.

 

On the other hand I do agree that people in general are not the "mindlesss zombies" he portrays them to be. Yes marketing has it's say, but at the end of the day, it is really the indivudial that makes the decision.

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Corp doesn't need to know what America wants. They suggest to us what we want through marketing campaigns. You can sell anything, any idea, if you have a medium like TV or the internet, and clever enough tactics.

 

YOu can brainwash a whole society with TV or the internet, if it is manipulated in the right manner "the masses are asses"-Thomas Jefferson. You can also market music that way. I am not going to sit and say there are no talented bands, or nothing creative in today's music. There are, but the industry just wants to replicate success.

 

One band gets signed, 20 more get signed cuz they sound or remind one of the first one that got signed. They know this isn't as risky and it has worked in the past, so that is what they do.

 

I wonder sometimes if they wouldn't want a more talented group to be successful because then it would be harder to replicate!!? I dunno just speculation.

 

There are phenomenons though. Bands that make it despite the odds. Like Phish for example. They are HUGE and they aren't really promoted much or talked about on mainstream radio. That is a rarity, and not something to bank on..

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Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by Hard Tail:

I'm just saying that unless you were rich during that time, you didn't stand much of a chance to make it to 8th grade to even take the math test.

That makes sense, I just didn't infer that from your previous post

Originally posted by webe123:

 

Also, I still think you have some sort of axe to grind with America. What is your problem with America anyway? How is it that it is the ONLY country in your spotlight?

Because there are Americans producing some great music which falls upon deaf ears throughout the states (due to market manipulation) but is in high demand in other parts of the world.

 

We are supposed to be a free market, but if that were true- we should be able to press our own CD's, contract via a P & D deal (pressing and distribution) w/ a major and then tale out a corporate loan to pay off an independent promoter who gets it on the air

 

You cannot TOUCH an independent promoter unless you are signed up w/the big boys.

 

If that doesn't happen, you get no airplay

 

If you think that is free market, go for it.

I guess you never heard of the INTERNET have you? There are independant groups, if you would read up on it that are passing by the major labels for their own distribution where they get a lions share of the profits!

 

And some have been a major hit with fans.

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Originally posted by flagshipmile:

Corp doesn't need to know what America wants. They suggest to us what we want through marketing campaigns. You can sell anything, any idea, if you have a medium like TV or the internet, and clever enough tactics.

 

YOu can brainwash a whole society with TV or the internet, if it is manipulated in the right manner "the masses are asses"-Thomas Jefferson. You can also market music that way. I am not going to sit and say there are no talented bands, or nothing creative in today's music. There are, but the industry just wants to replicate success.

 

One band gets signed, 20 more get signed cuz they sound or remind one of the first one that got signed. They know this isn't as risky and it has worked in the past, so that is what they do.

 

I wonder sometimes if they wouldn't want a more talented group to be successful because then it would be harder to replicate!!? I dunno just speculation.

 

There are phenomenons though. Bands that make it despite the odds. Like Phish for example. They are HUGE and they aren't really promoted much or talked about on mainstream radio. That is a rarity, and not something to bank on..

But you are talking commercial groups and commercial ways of advertisment....years ago there was no internet and absolutly no way an artist could get himself heard other than a major record deal.

 

But with todays technology, all of that has changed. There are Groups that can make and market their product online with no need for the major labels. Also it gives the band more control over their own product, because you have NO CONTROL or very little say if you sign a major record deal.

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