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Does America Have a Malnourished Listening Audience?


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Originally posted by miroslav:

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

The radio stations give airtime to the music that the audience wants to hear.

...they tend to just follow programming lists that are NOT assembled by the audience.

 

If you exclude collage radio...the majority of US radio stations tend to follow programming formulas that are assembled bysomeone(?).

 

The majority of radio stations in the US are nothing more then a marketing tool used to advertise product...with some music in between. Thing isa lot of people like having the radio onand often its nothing more than background noiseand every so often, we hear songs we likeso we leave that station on.

Guess whatlisteners are very programmed here in the US.

 

Now that does not say that we don't have interesting music on the air in the US...but it does say that most of the radio stations here DON'T play their music choices because of what the audience wants.

 

Its a case of the chicken/egg syndrome...

I think a HUGE chunk of the US radio audience has learned to "like" what the stations are feeding them...and NOT the other way around, with the stations specifically following audience demands.

 

Theres a lot of good new music in the USno doubt about thatBUT, it often isnt found on US radio stations.

In the USits more about creating programs of known good musicstuff thats already been picked as good...and then they will play it to death until you start to hate it.

And if you listen closely to their daily programs you can easily hear the marketing in the mix.

;)

That may be as many contradictions as I've ever seen in a single post. ;)

 

How do you think the radio programmers choose the songs to put in the programming? The fact of the matter is that the radio stations make their money by selling advertising. In order for advertising to work, people have to be listening. In order for people to keep listening, the station has to play something the listener wants to listen to...otherwise, they just turn it off, the audience goes away, execs get fired, and the station gets a new face. The programmers make it their business to know what the audience wants to hear.

 

You HAVE to bear in mind that the VAST majority of radio listeners are NOT musicians. They are people that have a list of favorite songs they want to hear...over and over...THEY are the ones that the are the targeted demographic for the radio programmers. It's a moving target. They find a song that is immensely popular, and they milk it for all it's worth. They play it until nobody can stand it anymore and then they look for the next one. It keeps people listening and it sells advertising and everybody makes money.

 

Money is what it's all about. The record companies will not record something that they don't think will sell. They have to market the music to the radio stations. The radio stations are what sells records. Do you see the relationship here?

 

The consumer drives the whole thing. He (or she) decides what music sells records. The consumer is the target of the advertising that is sold to various companies and industries by the radio station. The radio station tells the recording industry what it wants to air based on what it's audience wants to listen to...because they HAVE to keep their audience listening in order to keep selling advertising. The artist records what the Record can get air time for. Sometimes it's a style of music that sells, and sometimes it's an artist that sells. So...the radio station is selling both music AND advertising. They have to PAY to play music on the air (royalties). When they air a new artist or style of music they are taking a risk with their revenue. They are usually pretty picky about who and what they risk their money on, because the audience has the final say.

"And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her."

~Paris Hilton

 

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Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

 

How do you think the radio programmers choose the songs to put in the programming?

The same way that most of the record companies choose what to promote.

 

They DON'T take a nation-wide poll to see what the majority wants to hear! :D

They have "experts"...and "expert groups" that decide what YOU want to hear.

 

Denial is a wonderful drug... :)

 

Go rent "The Matrix"...and pay close attention to the plot. ;)

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Originally posted by miroslav:

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

 

How do you think the radio programmers choose the songs to put in the programming?

The same way that most of the record companies choose what to promote.

 

They DON'T take a nation-wide poll to see what the majority wants to hear! :D

They have "experts"...and "expert groups" that decide what YOU want to hear.

 

Denial is a wonderful drug... :)

 

Go rent "The Matrix"...and pay close attention to the plot. ;)

Smooth...intelligent...and completely incorrect. But...you guys stay with your conspiracy theories...it gives you things to postulate over.

"And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her."

~Paris Hilton

 

BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!!

 

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Too many people think that what gets played on the radio is the status quo for everything. Let's not confuse economics with talent. Sponsers have more to do with what is played on the radio than talent, sophistication, musical depth, etc.

 

The same goes for touring, I suppose. The market will only support so many tours. It is great that Europe and South American are there to support those that find it financially futile to tour in the US. It is very much like your average city on a larger scale. What gets played in the large arenas? Recent history tells me that it is acts like U2, Elton John, The Stones, American Idols Live, Bon Jovi, Madonna, Kelly Clarkson, Kenny Chesney, Tim McGraw, etc. But many folks can find some great acts at the Blues club on the corner. Maybe even some acts that they like better than those playing at the large arenas.

 

The US is alot like those large arenas. The US is where the world of popular music is center stage. I'm sure it is very tough for artists who are highly respected but not mainstream to maneuver the corporate world of the US music industry. Even with tremendous luck, I would imagine it is very difficult.

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Originally posted by Hound Dog:

Too many people think that what gets played on the radio is the status quo for everything. Let's not confuse economics with talent. Sponsers have more to do with what is played on the radio than talent, sophistication, musical depth, etc.

 

The same goes for touring, I suppose. The market will only support so many tours. It is great that Europe and South American are there to support those that find it financially futile to tour in the US. It is very much like your average city on a larger scale. What gets played in the large arenas? Recent history tells me that it is acts like U2, Elton John, The Stones, American Idols Live, Bon Jovi, Madonna, Kelly Clarkson, Kenny Chesney, Tim McGraw, etc. But many folks can find some great acts at the Blues club on the corner. Maybe even some acts that they like better than those playing at the large arenas.

 

The US is alot like those large arenas. The US is where the world of popular music is center stage. I'm sure it is very tough for artists who are highly respected but not mainstream to maneuver the corporate world of the US music industry. Even with tremendous luck, I would imagine it is very difficult.

Now, THIS is all very true. :thu:

"And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her."

~Paris Hilton

 

BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!!

 

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Well Sas...so far all you've done is stated your opinion...

...I'm still waiting for the "proof". :)

 

My statements about "programming" and "expert groups" are facts.

There ARE individuals or small groups of individuals that decide what YOU want to hear...period.

 

Has anyone EVER actually asked you?

Do you know of ANYONE that was ever asked what THEY wanted to hear...???

 

It is all decided by speculationby the programmers.

 

The fact that they will also hit upon music that you do like...is only coincidence...it's NOT them thinking "Oh yeah, Sas likes these songs...so we better include them in the mix"... :D

 

 

Hey...it's no different than the TV stations deciding what YOU are going to like watching this coming season.

Its all based on speculation and formulasas to which programming will sell the most product...as in advertising of other merchandise (not music product).

 

That ain't no "conspiracy theory"...

...feel free to check all that out...

...go talk to some DJs...ARs...PDs... :thu:

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Originally posted by miroslav:

Well Sas...so far all you've done is stated your opinion...

...I'm still waiting for the "proof". :)

 

My statements about "programming" and "expert groups" are facts.

There ARE individuals or small groups of individuals that decide what YOU want to hear...period.

 

Has anyone EVER actually asked you?

Do you know of ANYONE that was ever asked what THEY wanted to hear...???

 

It is all decided by speculationby the programmers.

 

The fact that they will also hit upon music that you do like...is only coincidence...it's NOT them thinking "Oh yeah, Sas likes these songs...so we better include them in the mix"... :D

 

 

Hey...it's no different than the TV stations deciding what YOU are going to like watching this coming season.

Its all based on speculation and formulasas to which programming will sell the most product...as in advertising of other merchandise (not music product).

 

That ain't no "conspiracy theory"...

...feel free to check all that out...

...go talk to some DJs...ARs...PDs... :thu:

I'm sorry, dude..I think you are completely mistaken. I have seen no proof your you "facts" either.

 

Ever hear of Billboard? That's what drives the industry in large part. Here's the way it works:

 

1. Song gets airplay

2. Billboard tracks sales

3. Billboard ranks song on the Top 100 and Top 200 lists and reports sales to record industry and radio programmers

4. The more sales and the higher the position on the list, the more airplay

5. Sales starts to taper off, airplay reduced commensurately

 

 

That's sort of like the audience deciding what sells, isn't it?

"And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her."

~Paris Hilton

 

BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!!

 

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Originally posted by Hound Dog:

Sponsers have more to do with what is played on the radio than talent, sophistication, musical depth, etc.

Exactly! :thu:

 

And do you think that the majority of sponsors are focused on bringing you interesting/diverse music...

...or on selling their product...?

 

They also use "experts"...who use "formulas"...to decide on which will sell most product...

...and too often, when they *think" they have a wining *formula*...they will then use it to death until their product sales drop off...

...And then they look for a new formula from the experts.

 

Guysthe focus isnt about bringing you great music.

If it happensits coincidenceor just a byproduct of the formula.

 

But againthats not saying that there isnt good music to be heardor that you cant find new/interesting stuff.

Its just not going to be on the mainstream radio stationsand to a degree, even on many niche stations there is a programming formula trend.

 

Much of the music that is consumed by the majority of the US buying public is music that has been programmed into their brainsas good or as worth buying, today more than everbecause there is a ever growing trend to be very fresh and very hipand then tomorrow, you have to find something new.

Its very much driven by the instant gratification trends that are growing rapidly and immensely in a good chunk of the younger crowd.

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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"Dumbing down", gentrification and homogenization are common traits in today's society, and are world-wide tendencies. Popular music is just one of the things these processes are affecting.

"Without music, life would be a mistake."

--from 'Beyond Good and Evil', by Friedrich Nietzsche

 

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I'm not going to get into "right-fighting" with you Miroslav. You will continue to argue, even when you know you're wrong, just to make sure you end up being "right". I've seen it time and again, even with the moderators, and I have no intention of getting into that. It's stupid and meaningless and a complete waste of time.

 

I know how the industry works, I don't need to argue the point with you.

 

I'll say it before you do (the passive-aggressive HALLMARK of a "right-fighter"):

 

"You can have the last word."

"And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her."

~Paris Hilton

 

BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!!

 

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Originally posted by MILLO:

"Dumbing down", gentrification and homogenization are common traits in today's society, and are world-wide tendencies. Popular music is just one of the things these processes are affecting.

I'll bet people like Leonardo DaVinci, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and a host of other great social thinkers throughout history have said essentially the same thing. ;)

"And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her."

~Paris Hilton

 

BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!!

 

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So does a song have to be complicated to be good? I think I know the answer to this. I think Sasquatches point is that in the radio market of today you have to cater to the formula.

 

It should have some of the following characteristics.

 

1. It should be short, 3 minutes or so.

2. It should be dancable.

3. The lyrics should reach a wide audience, there are several themes here like love or alienation.

4. With the advent of telivision the performer should be visably appealing or have some novelty to his/ their look.

 

I am not saying you have to have all of these qualities but most succesfull mainstream artists have them nowdays. As much as I like Allan Holdworth and similar artists, you aren't going to hear his songs on the radio cause they just aren't going to sell many hamburgers.

 

I think the F.C.C. has exasperated this problem by granting licenses to the highest bidder. It used to be that you had to worry about paying the electric bills and hiring good talent as your main expense. Now I think it is next to impossible to run a radio station that doesn't cater to a the main demographics as you can't afford the up front fees. Thank god that the internet is filling this niche so we can at least seek out some alternate music.

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Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

The bottom line is that the American audience is no "dumber" than the European audience and the European audience is no "dumber" than the American audience. It's just a different market.

Right...market!

 

That whole "dumber" thing is not my argument...

...just that the music you hear, really IS programmed for the purpose of selling other products.

 

Having lived in Europe...I also have to agree that there is a totally different mentality towards music than here in the states.

Often...the European audiences are much more open to a wider variety of music...and there is less of a trend to have very similar styles jammed into specific programming blocks, intended to attract a specific demographic.

 

In other words...the European audiences tend NOT to be as susceptible to the "repetition programming" approach that so many US radio stations utilize.

So the Euros will easily segue from a classical piece to a punk rock tune to some easy listening ballads, followed by some ethnic music...and finish it all off with good old R&R!

You NEVER...EVER...get that in the US.

It's more about drilling home the same nail...over and over...with the majority of people listening to just THEIR niche music...

...and in that regard, I guess you can refer to it as a "dumbing down".

 

But I can see that this thread is already headed to a typical "Yes it is"...No it isn't" debate...

...so I'm gonna' exist stage left and go play some of my own music in my studio! :cool:

 

You all have fun now, ya hear! :thu:

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

I'm not going to get into "right-fighting" with you Miroslav. You will continue to argue, even when you know you're wrong, just to make sure you end up being "right".

:D

 

And isn't that what you are also doing..?

Continuing to argue just to make sure you end up being right?

 

I've seen more posts in this thread by other people that support my comments, not yours.

 

So much for me being all "wrong". :wave:

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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If the conspiracy theory goes as deep as implied, there are certain conditions that either indicate huge blunders or expose cracks in the theory.

 

One case is in the late 80's when "Hair Bands" ruled the roost. Almost overnight came the alternative wave.

 

With the "Hair Bands" you had a marketers dream. An almost endless pool of adequate supply that could be reasonable controlled, The members of which were mostly good-looking, young, "marketable" people who really only needed to be marginally talented. It was all a whole lot of fun. Record companies spent a lot of money promoting these bands.

 

Why would they almost overnight "decide" that we needed to listen to Pearl Jam, Nirvana and Soundgarden. Why would they then commence to drop their other acts like lead balloons, and try to instantly market these groups and those that followed, who by the way were largely made up of anti-establishment minded, self admitted outcasts or outcast wanna-bees, who were heavily into drugs and self destruction, and looked entirely different that the "status quo"?

 

Well they didn't. They just reacted to that unpredictable thing called "the public".

 

Record and radio companies could only dream that they could actually control the public's likes and dislikes. Yes there are great efforts to promote and maintain certain artists, but the fickle public is still ultimately in control. Every business person would do well to remember this.

 

The history of business if full of examples where somethings have had all the talent, backing support, sophistication and appeal to be a real success, only to fail to win the public over.

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Originally posted by miroslav:

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

I'm not going to get into "right-fighting" with you Miroslav. You will continue to argue, even when you know you're wrong, just to make sure you end up being "right".

:D

 

And isn't that what you are also doing..?

Continuing to argue just to make sure you end up being right?

 

I've seen more posts in this thread by other people that support my comments, not yours.

 

So much for me being all "wrong". :wave:

OK. You're right.

"And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her."

~Paris Hilton

 

BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!!

 

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Originally posted by Hound Dog:

If the conspiracy theory goes as deep as implied, there are certain conditions that either indicate huge blunders or expose cracks in the theory.

 

One case is in the late 80's when "Hair Bands" ruled the roost. Almost overnight came the alternative wave.

 

With the "Hair Bands" you had a marketers dream. An almost endless pool of adequate supply that could be reasonable controlled, The members of which were mostly good-looking, young, "marketable" people who really only needed to be marginally talented. It was all a whole lot of fun. Record companies spent a lot of money promoting these bands.

 

Why would they almost overnight "decide" that we needed to listen to Pearl Jam, Nirvana and Soundgarden. Why would they then commence to drop their other acts like lead balloons, and try to instantly market these groups and those that followed, who by the way were largely made up of anti-establishment minded, self admitted outcasts or outcast wanna-bees, who were heavily into drugs and self destruction, and looked entirely different that the "status quo"?

 

Well they didn't. They just reacted to that unpredictable thing called "the public".

And then they proceeded to create and promote bands and clones in this style and make a huge profit out of it. Same thing happened.

 

Now we have "Emo", the perfect marriage of boo-boo-I'm-gonna-kill-myself-and-I'm-so-deep-and-sensitive-and-can't-play-solos-or-complex-harmonies-90's-type-thing and 80's and 70's superfluous, insipid fun girl-let-me-get-under-your-pants glam thing. They're all readily packaged, sounding the same, made up pretty much the same way. Most of it, if you ask me, is pure bullshit, in musical terms. But it doesn't change the fact that it was refreshing as an 'alternative' to what was there DIRECTLY before.

 

The public helps create the "deadlines" for the cycles on these tendencies, but I think the ones that actually create these tendencies and solidify them are the producers and marketers--which is exactly what you said, but I guess your conclusion may be a bit different.

 

I think no one's to blame, it's a vicious cycle. It's a business whose clients are mainly kids that have flock mentalities. Good business dealing w/ the masses needs mass-marketing strategies. I guess it's always been that way and always will be that way. I call what's going on today in ROCK music "shopping-mall-anger-and-angst".

"Without music, life would be a mistake."

--from 'Beyond Good and Evil', by Friedrich Nietzsche

 

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I'd rather be wrong, then I get to learn something. The companies pay to get new songs or bands on the radio still. So, the audence isn't dumbed by that. The audence is dumb by it self. A human is smart, humans as a group are dumb. The age of the average buyer is fairly young. The one that kills me is that "dumb..dumb..dumb" rap song. Just something that is killing me to listen to a kid saying that over and over and over and over.
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Because of the era of fast food, TV, and now computers/internet I think we are quickly creating a society of ADHD.

 

Personally I don't believe in ADHD. I think it is BS. We live in an instant gratification society. I swear if I see one more guy or girl tell me they have ADHD I am going to OD on ritalin (I hear it is a cool buzz--just kdidin)

 

I think this 'dumbing' is a result of us training ourselves to only respond to something if it comes immediatly. We have lost patience. Now with the internet this problem has expanded exponentially. People no longer have the attention spans they had. Remember everyone would talk about how TV was numbing people's minds? It has gotten worse.

 

Would the Beatles make it in today's market? I dunno, they may be too sophisticated. That is a sad thought really.

 

Music is just novelty to alot of young people now. Image is everything, and the music has to be completely accesible instantly or it won't be bothered with. Everything is like that now. Quick gimme gimme, ok bye.

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Here we go again... insulting the youth... Nothing's ever as good as it was... Everyone's music is so worse than mine... the radio sucks so it must mean all music made by everybody who wasn't around in teh 70s sucks... It's not about the music any more... Not like the good ole days... blah blah blah...
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Originally posted by Squ:

Here we go again... insulting the youth... Nothing's ever as good as it was... Everyone's music is so worse than mine... the radio sucks so it must mean all music made by everybody who wasn't around in teh 70s sucks... It's not about the music any more... Not like the good ole days... blah blah blah...

No! Not youth, the youngsters that get in my face and repeat, "dumb..dumb..dumb". It is my intolerence. It just drives me nutz! :mad:
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there was a time, in the late 60's early 70's, when most really good bands could have a decent chance to make an album or two, and tour a bit. The record companies would give them their "shot" at making it.

 

With that spirit, there was much more of a variety of music available, both on record, live, and on radio. It was a wonderful time for a young person in love with music to grow up in. Folk, metal, hard rock, bluegrass, roots blues, country, real jazz, prog rock, modern classical (Copeland), southern rock, etc. etc.

 

You have to work harder today to get exposed to a variety of music, and musicians.

 

Don

Don

 

"There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by."

 

 

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Squ....it's not today's youth who's at fault. It's the culture, the music industry, economics, etc.. Every generation must make the best of it's situation. If anything, it's simply not fair that you younger folks aren't treated better! :mad: You deserve better!! :thu:

 

Buck the trend, learn the old stuff, then make it new and your own. That's what I'm talkin about...... :thu:

 

Eric Clapton made a career of re-inventing stuff....in a rather brilliant way!!!

 

Don

Don

 

"There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by."

 

 

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The Beatles wouldn't make it? Don't you remember recently that that one 'Beatles One' Greatest Hits CD was a huge hit? In fact: "The collection, released on November 13, 2000 (see 2000 in music), sold 3.6 million units in its first week and more than 12 million in three weeks worldwide, becoming the fastest selling album of all time and the biggest selling of 2000. The collection also premiered at #1 in the U.S. and other countries." There's no need to be so pessimistic.

 

How much young people is it a novelty to? I don't know the percentage. I don't know when it will change. All that can be done is to pay heed to the people that are advancing the music. And, if they can do it in such a way so that the "moron masses" (A Great Kat phrase) approve, more power to them.

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Originally posted by Squ:

Here we go again... insulting the youth... Nothing's ever as good as it was... Everyone's music is so worse than mine... the radio sucks so it must mean all music made by everybody who wasn't around in teh 70s sucks... It's not about the music any more... Not like the good ole days... blah blah blah...

If you actually read the thread most of the "insulting" comments are directed towards the industry. The industry's main concern is commercial product that will appeal to the broadest possible base, a McMusic product.

 

There is plenty of good music being made by young artists but the McMusic that is being aimed at the broadest cross-section of the youth market is, for the most part, bland palatable drivel. It was the same in the late 60s'/70s', mainstream pop-rock that charted was, for the most part, pretty gruesome and forgettable. It's the same today, the high charting drivel will be forgotten, the good stuff will endure.

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