Does America Have a Malnourished Listening Audience?

[Tone Taster]

EDIT: The title has been changed by this poster in regards to a misstated premise as the result of reading through the posts.

 

 

I beg this question because why is it that a majority of cats who write the more sophisticated music forms (and one that groove, btw) such as Marcus Miller, Scott Henderson, Richie Kotzen, Greg Howe, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Billy Cobham, etc . . .

 

Have to constantly tour Europe, South America?

 

Why do they always say they wish they could be playing in the States, but cannot afford to?

 

If America doesn't have a dumbed down listening public, then is it because the airplay promotion wizards want people to have their "McDonaldland" music in a box -- good to go in 2 minutes and 30 seconds and Both the kids and the adults like it?

[skipclone 1]

ha, does a crutch click on the sidewalk?

Well I`m not sure America should be singled out only for having a huge crop of dummies-it`s a big place and expensive to move gear from one region to another. With all the slickness in N.Y. and L.A it`s easy to forget that there`s a vast hinterland where people don`t know those kind of artists well, and local radio probably wouldn`t play them anyway.

[Bejeeber]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Does America Have a Dumbed Down Listening Audience?

Yep.

 

Of course the artists you mentioned mostly appeal to other musicians.

 

I remember what it was like to never have played a musical instrument and to just listen to music for the feeling I got from it, no intellectual involvement, so I know what it's like to listen from a dumbed down perspective.

 

Back then the fusion stuff sounded like a bunch of unpleasant noise to me.

 

Then I learned to play, started listening to things differently, and fell in love with that style.

 

I'm probably not typical of the former fusion fan/player who no longer patronizes the genre, but it's funny how things can come full circle, as now the style holds no appeal for me, albeit for some different reasons than before (most of it no longer sounds progressive to me, and I get a distinct "throwback to the 70's" feeling from a lot of it.)

[Sauntman]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

I beg this question because why is it that a majority of cats who write the more sophisticated music forms (and one that groove, btw) such as Marcus Miller, Scott Henderson, Richie Kotzen, Greg Howe, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Billy Cobham, etc . . .

I have to admit, I had never heard of Marcus Miller until just recently. I saw him perform with "Clapton and Friends" through my cable provider Comcast and through their "On Demand" concert selection. They were playing what I would call jazz/funk and Marcus caught my attention. When he did his bass solos he got more applause out of the audience than anyone else in the lineup. I was wondering who and the heck that guy was, he was awesome. He did all the talking for the band in between numbers and I remember him introducing himself as Marcus Miller. So, he has added one more American fan.

[Tedster]

I remember years ago, working at a small college FM station on the US/Canada border. We'd get requests from both sides of the river.

 

Almost consistently, the Americans would request overplayed schlock, while the Canadians would request something a bit more interesting. Now, that could have been due to a small sample size. But, I think it is due to the crappy pablum US listeners are fed.

[The Big G]

Originally posted by Tedster:

I remember years ago, working at a small college FM station on the US/Canada border. We'd get requests from both sides of the river.

 

Almost consistently, the Americans would request overplayed schlock, while the Canadians would request something a bit more interesting. Now, that could have been due to a small sample size. But, I think it is due to the crappy pablum US listeners are fed.

I can understand where Tedster is coming from, so much samey music is pushed in the US and a lot of more diverse and interesting music is pushed away from the dominating commerical stations etc....

This is unfortunate for all music lovers in the US.

[Tedster]

So, what I'd like to know, G...

 

I've heard that radio in the UK for years was much worse than it was in the US...like only BBC1 and BBC2 to choose from...so...

 

How is it that you Brits have managed, given those circumstances, to turn out a lot of interesting music?

[The Big G]

Tedster

We have a few more than BBC channels, loads of differnt radio but I probably think its becasue we still go and take in lots of live music, also the in vogue music in the UK changes quite often so we end up with lots of people liking a variety of styles of music, but I think its really the live aspect that keeps us apart. i would say like anywhere this also rises and falls so we do end up with bland times, but these are short lived normally.

What say you on us Brits mate???

[Tedster]

I think I'm primarily talking about the older days. Based on what I'd heard, the UK government had some rather tight restrictions on radio. Glad to hear that's changed.

 

I was over there a little over a year ago...didn't have much time to listen to radio...but I'm looking forward to coming back. I had a blast.

[The Big G]

Originally posted by Tedster:

I think I'm primarily talking about the older days. Based on what I'd heard, the UK government had some rather tight restrictions on radio. Glad to hear that's changed.

 

I was over there a little over a year ago...didn't have much time to listen to radio...but I'm looking forward to coming back. I had a blast.

Yes there has been a large movement with DAB technology etc, but you are always welcome especially looking like a true American rock star Tedster

[Tone Taster]

Thanks for the posts, guys.

 

In response to one of the posts that only musicians dig fusion:

 

The foreign audiences who dig the fusion shows are composed of ALOT of NON-musicians.

 

Tedster may have confirmed one of my questions that a part of the reason could very well be a "blackout" by the bigwigs who just push the "happy meals", so that's whaty people will eat as long as they are fed it.

 

Further confirmation of that is when another posted that the audience composed of Americans dug lesser known Marcus Miller's bass solos more so than the icons he was playing with.

[picker]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Does America Have a Dumbed Down Listening Audience?

Yes, of course. And it's that way because the music scene in America is a salesman's dream and a musician's nightmare.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Wait a minute. Where do you get off saying that people who don't like the same music as you are stupid? That is basically what you're saying. To paraphrase your post:

 

"I dig all these cats, but they don't do well with American audiences, so since I like them they must be the greatest, therefore the American audience must be stupid."

 

Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe the American audience knows what they like to listen to and they don't much give a damn what you or any other musicians like, so they are not going to pay for something they don't want to listen to? Maybe these cats can't figure that out? Maybe they should be playing what the audience wants to pay the hard-earned money to hear, instead of what satisfies their musician wank-desires if they want to play for American audiences? Maybe it's just a difference in taste and doesn't make ANYBODY stupid or "dumbed-down"?

 

 

Just a thought....

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

 

"I dig all these cats, but they don't do well with American audiences, so since I like them they must be the greatest, therefore the American audience must be stupid."

Nice try and hyperbole, but the math doesn't add up.

 

 

All of these other nations buy and support these seemingly more "advanced" art forms as much as any other form.When Americans actually get to experience it live by some anomaly, they dig it and get more interested.

 

One example is Kurt rosenwinkel. He had to move from New York to Sweden just to work as a Jazz guitarist

 

Cobham had to do the same thing

 

Another fact is that the other Nations don't get the overwhelming marketing onslaught that America gets.

Kids here are getting it from the giddy-up in the public fool system

 

To say, "Americans know they just like apple pie, and that's it" doesn't line up with the above facts

[Bbach1]

Speaking of what gets played on the radio, I got the ultimate insult from my wife the other day. I was playing downstairs, probably playing over some midi files, and my wife drove into the garage. She got out of the car and thought some radio was left on in the garage so she went hunting for the radio only to discover it was my playing coming up from the basement.

What a slam! I sound like the radio! I'm not sure if I should just quit and sell my equipment or simply shoot myself and end it all. AAarrrrrgggghhhhh.

[Dr. Ellwood]

She's so right! no need to keep that Falcon then.. a donation to the collection here would insure it would be in good company.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

 

"I dig all these cats, but they don't do well with American audiences, so since I like them they must be the greatest, therefore the American audience must be stupid."

Nice try and hyperbole, but the math doesn't add up.

 

 

All of these other nations buy and support these seemingly more "advanced" art forms as much as any other form.When Americans actually get to experience it live by some anomaly, they dig it and get more interested.

 

One example is Kurt rosenwinkel. He had to move from New York to Sweden just to work as a Jazz guitarist

 

Cobham had to do the same thing

 

Another fact is that the other Nations don't get the overwhelming marketing onslaught that America gets.

Kids here are getting it from the giddy-up in the public fool system

 

To say, "Americans know they just like apple pie, and that's it" doesn't line up with the above facts

I haven't seen any facts or math in your post, other than there is a difference in taste.

 

What you are trying to say is that you know better than the audience what they should like and listen to because you might know more about music and I think that's a crock of shit. Just my opinion.

 

What the Europeans like to listen to isn't necessarily the best music or what everybody should be listening to. It's just what they like to listen to. That's the ONLY "fact". Maybe THEY are the "dumbed-down" audience?

 

PROVE otherwise, Counselor.

[Tone Taster]

And trust me, I dig skynyrd, hank, Rap, the rolling stones, some stuff in the TOp 40 and hamburgers just like any one else

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by The Big G:

I would say we brits / Europeans are far more advanced than you lot so na na na na sorry guys but its made me laugh

We gotcha guys beat on showering, deodorant and dentistry - No Doubt !

 

Who told some of those Euro-Ladies that hairy armpits and legs is good?

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

You can cast the aspersion...

Nope, not casting aspersions, just raising the bullshit flag. I do that once in a while.

 

 

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

It seems that ACCESSABILITY is the deal.

Another flag thrown here. We can get just about any music in the U.S. that Europeans can get. It's available. The radio stations give airtime to the music that the audience wants to hear. They are in business to make money. If they don't have an audience, they don't make money. They are not in business to please the musicians...it's the other way around in reality. The musicians only work if the audience wants to listen to their music. You may not like that, but it's a fact...THAT'S what a fact looks like for future reference.

 

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

You are denying the fact that people "like or know what they listen to" because it is what is being crammed down there throats via NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) through the agency of mass marketing

 

Yes. I am denying that. I think people are smart enough to know what they like to listen to and what appeals to them and what doesn't. I think it would take a pretty narcissistic viewpoint for a person to think that he might be superior enough to dictate their tastes to them....and to think that they would be stupid enough to conform to it. I think that it also takes a bit of paranoia to think that there's some big conspiracy to make people listen to a certain type of music.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by The Big G:

I would say we brits / Europeans are far more advanced than you lot so na na na na sorry guys but its made me laugh

We gotcha guys beat on showering, deodorant and dentistry - No Doubt !

 

Who told some of those Euro-Ladies that hairy armpits and legs is good?

Ooohh...you better watch that, Yze...I got in trouble for that in here one time.

 

I made some comment about the hairy legs and armpits....and about how they could AT LEAST braid it...

 

Boy, did that start a sh$$-storm!

[The Big G]

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by The Big G:

I would say we brits / Europeans are far more advanced than you lot so na na na na sorry guys but its made me laugh

We gotcha guys beat on showering, deodorant and dentistry - No Doubt !

 

Who told some of those Euro-Ladies that hairy armpits and legs is good?

Ooohh...you better watch that, Yze...I got in trouble for that in here one time.

 

I made some comment about the hairy legs and armpits....and about how they could AT LEAST braid it...

 

Boy, did that start a sh$$-storm!

Yes I am deeply offended.............

so what if my better half can plait her armpit hair, just because I get a kick out her having hairier legs than me, so what your problem !!!!!!!!! LMAO

[The Big G]

To be a little more serious, i do feel we allow a wider variety of music a public position than in America and that will be due in the most part to commercial pressure, as Squ says its all about making a profit. So in Europe in general yes they want to make money who dosent!! but to have a point of differnce can drive people to put on more obscure acts or events that a whole host of people enjoy and get into it. But as I said earlier in the thread in the UK as a % I think (i havent factual numbers) we have a stronger gig/live music culture which I hope we never loose. No matter the commercial pressure.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

We can get just about any music in the U.S. that Europeans can get. It's available. The radio stations give airtime to the music that the audience wants to hear.

Maybe, I can narrow down my position to just that of instrumental music in America. I by no means think that instrumental music will ever be aprreciated as much as vocal music or as more simplified song forms, etc . . .

 

Look at the American "smooth jazz" stations. Nearly Every last one of those artists were fuzed cats to the max and are writing some seriously watered down stuff because they know the A&R man will bring it to the table.

If they are making money, I applaud them because they are doing so honestly and I can only hope that at their live shows that they stretch out on some jams

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

I think people are smart enough to know what they like to listen to and what appeals to them and what doesn't. I think it would take a pretty narcissistic viewpoint for a person to think that he might be superior enough to dictate their tastes to them....and to think that they would be stupid enough to conform to it. I think that it also takes a bit of paranoia to think that there's some big conspiracy to make people listen to a certain type of music.

You are indicating that record companies and the execs have ZERO % to do with "suggesting" to people what they like through pushing stuff by "testing the market".

 

Yes, people buy it cuz they like it - no doubt about it.

 

But, if that is all that is made available in regards to what is instantly available and visible - then yes people will buy it.

 

There is definitely "narrowed" choices presented here in the Union

[Bbach1]

This is just another version of the old "has music gone too commercial" debate.

I think it can be agreed that the pop twenty stations are playing anything that can be made commercially successful and not worrying about what's is really good musically.

However, it does not take much digging to find good quality music in America. Satellite radio, internet radio stations, et all.

That being said, my 12 year old daughter loves what I think of as 'crap on the radio'. So who's to say what's what with that?

Being an old timer, a lot of stuff I hear just sounds like a lamer version of stuff I grew up with. My daugher called me into the computer room the other day and told me to listen to this group. She said I'd love it cause it was my kind of music. I can't remember the group, but they sounded like a watered down version of the Beatles. I told her I'd just go listen to some Beatles stuff.

She, of course, told me I'm weird.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Maybe, I can narrow down my position to just that of instrumental music in America. I by no means think that instrumental music will ever be aprreciated as much as vocal music .....

 

You are indicating that record companies and the execs have ZERO % to do with "suggesting" to people what they like through pushing stuff by "testing the market".

 

Yes, people buy it cuz they like it - no doubt about it.

 

But, if that is all that is made available in regards to what is instantly available and visible - then yes people will buy it.

 

I agree that instrumental music will never be as popular as vocal music with the general public. Although, at different times through the past 75 years or so (since nearly everyone has had access to some broadcast media, be it radio or television), certain styles of instrumental music have enjoyed tremendous popularity. Such artists as Chuck Mangione, Herb Alpert and several Bossa artists have been enormously popular...but it does tend to wane. Nothing in history, except Classical music, has retained a strong following like mainstream Rock and Roll has. That is because it is easy to relate to for the average person, and it's easy to identify what you are relating to because it is in words that can be memorized along with a simple melody.

 

 

Music is much like food, if you think about it. If I like chocolate, I'm going to try different kinds of chocolate and settle on a favorite. That doesn't mean I'm not going to eat different kinds once in a while just for variety...

 

If I just don't like chocolate, no amount of advertising in the world is going to sell me a Hershey Bar. The advertising execs can "suggest" until they turn blue, I'm still not eating that Hershey bar. They have some power of suggestion over me within the realms of my personal taste.

[The Big G]

If I just don't like chocolate, no amount of advertising in the world is going to sell me a Hershey Bar. The advertising execs can "suggest" until they turn blue, I'm still not eating that Hershey bar. They have some power of suggestion over me within the realms of my personal taste. [/QB]

 

Sas I am not disagreeing with you but would you say the advertising exec's get to you via your musical instruments or other intertests, I am sure you play what you like but they certainly do a good job of convincing most of us that a fender is a top notch guitar, and in my opinion they are good guitars, as good as they say mmmmmh maybe maybe not. I think we may all get sucked in every so often by them and music is no different at times.

What do you think???

[Justus A. Picker]

People like what they're familiar with and what get's beat into their heads. Repetition does make the heart grow fonder, to a point.

 

People that are/were exposed to a wide variety of music at an earlier age tend to have more diverse taste as they grow older than those who grow up with a steady diet of top 40.

 

In other words, it's not just the medias fault, blame the parents too.....

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Sasquatch51:

The radio stations give airtime to the music that the audience wants to hear.

Which radio stations do that?

 

Yeah...there are some niche stations...BUT...even they tend to just follow programming lists that are NOT assembled by the audience.

 

If you exclude collage radio...the majority of US radio stations tend to follow programming formulas that are assembled bysomeone(?).

Often...all of the affiliated stations across the country will receive their similar programs from the same source...and they will be playing that programming at pre-determined times of the day...depending which demographic they are targeting.

 

The majority of radio stations in the US are nothing more then a marketing tool used to advertise product...with some music in between. Thing isa lot of people like having the radio onand often its nothing more than background noiseand every so often, we hear songs we likeso we leave that station on.

Guess whatlisteners are very programmed here in the US.

 

Now that does not say that we don't have interesting music on the air in the US...but it does say that most of the radio stations here DON'T play their music choices because of what the audience wants.

 

Its a case of the chicken/egg syndrome...

I think a HUGE chunk of the US radio audience has learned to "like" what the stations are feeding them...and NOT the other way around, with the stations specifically following audience demands.

 

Theres a lot of good new music in the USno doubt about thatBUT, it often isnt found on US radio stations.

In the USits more about creating programs of known good musicstuff thats already been picked as good...and then they will play it to death until you start to hate it.

And if you listen closely to their daily programs you can easily hear the marketing in the mix.

[mdrs]

I always heard that in general, european nations tend to value musicians and musicianship more than in the States. Also, I get the feeling that there is more of a tradition in many european countries of nice pubs, where family and friends can gather and have something to eat, a pint, and LISTEN TO LIVE MUSIC. Don't get me wrong...I'm staying here in the good old U.S. of A.!! But, our bar scene seems vastly different than those I've experienced in europe. Also, our current "music industry", in my opinion, is some horrible cookie cutter machine out of a freakish Orwellian music novel!!

 

Waxing poetic, ain't I??

 

There are plenty of dumb people to go around!! And, the dumbness knows no national boundries!! But, dumb people can value, and enjoy music, and musical talent. I just think that our culture here in the USA has changed to where it doesn't foster musical talent or diversity. "One size fits all", get yer fast food, and get out of the way, the next SUV wants to hit the take out window......

 

Don