Tremolo bridges and tone

[revolead]

Mike Gug's thread made me think of this, and I've been meaning to ask you guys for months.

 

I have a Jackson DX-10D (pictured in my avatar) that I modded the crap out of. Anyway, while I never use the Floyd-Rose trem ever (I kinda suck with it), I left the trem as it came on the guitar, just sitting there, floating without any restrictions.

 

Having done this, I notice an overall difference in sound from my hardtail guitar, and although they are very different instruments, I can't get the kind of sustain out of hardtail bridges, even nice ones at the store, that I can out of this trem set up.

 

(1) Do the springs on the trem contribute to the sustain?

 

(2) Is there anything else that would be affected tonally by using a different bridge?

[mdrs]

You should get a lot of interesting posts here, revo...good question!!

 

vintage strats with a tremolo are typically worth several grand more than otherwise equal hardtails. The trem strats tend to sound more chimey and chorusy, and therefore are more valued.

 

I've heard theories that it's the springs that make the chime. But I've also heard it was the routing in the strat body creating a chamber which affects the sound. I've also heard some who swear that their strat sounds better with the back spring cover left off. I read somewhere that Steve Vai puts tissue's in the "spring cavity" on his axe to help the tone.

 

As for sustain, I've always felt that a hardtail in theory should have superior sustain, since the string "energy" is transfered more directly to the body of the guitar. Now this theory would only hold if the guitars are otherwise identical.

 

So many other things effect sustain...type of wood used (and even with the same type of wood some pieces have superior sustain compared to other pieces), pick ups, the size of the neck, and type of wood used in the neck, string gague, nut material, etc etc..

 

I'm looking forward to comments from other's "in the know"

 

Don

[The Geoff]

It's the Floyd-Rose - I've said before & I stand by this - they are tone killers.

 

My trem (original style) is screwed down hard with 5 springs too. It also has a massive oversize solid brass block that weighs about 2 pounds.

 

Works for me.

 

Geoff

[revolead]

You mean killer like a cool thing or killer like it kills the sound?

 

Also, Don, which part of PA are you from? I'm in Pittsburgh right now on an internship.

[Caevan O'Shite]

"(1) Do the springs on the trem contribute to the sustain?"

 

Mmmmmmmmmmaybe- they definitely impart a bit of a mechanical reverb-like ring and shimmer to Strat-styled guitars.

 

Usually, I hear folks complain that trems in general and Floyd rose-types in particular suck sustain away; and my own experiences have been too apples-compared-to-oranges, if you get me, to draw any real conclusions on sustain. The one whammy-bar equipped axe that I've had was fitted with a fulcrum-style Khaler- one with springs in the back, like a Strat's or a Floyd's- and it was also very massive compared to either of those, with lots of thick machined steel, so that contributed to sustain, but it also had active EMG pickups and a particularly sweet Warmoth bird's-eye maple & Brazilian rosewood neck, so as Strat-stylees go, it was gonna have a lot of sustain no matter what!

 

I could tell a subtle but very real difference between the fullness of tone and sustain of the 1st/High-E string if the bar- the handle- was removed; it always sounded best with it in place. Honest! I think it was the added mass, and again, this one was much more heavy-duty than most.

 

As for your Jackson, maybe you've just got a good guitar there, maybe a cut or two above par for that make 'n' model...

 

Do you notice this same sustain difference between these two guitars if you play 'em unplugged? If not, perhaps the combination of the guitar's wood and the trem-springs creates a particularly fertile ground for sustain-enhancing feedback...

 

"(2) Is there anything else that would be affected tonally by using a different bridge?"

 

Different materials will impart different tonal colorations, such as the vintage-y brightness of aluminum, fuller but still very bright tone of steel, the darker tone of brass, the steel-on-steroids sustain and sound of titanium... different amounts of massiveness in the overall design will make a difference, too. The chief thing is a design where all the different elements in a guitar are considered for a whole that works towards a concerted target tonal character. By themselves, one-at-a-time, little changes usually make for little differences.

[mdrs]

Revo...north of Allentown, south of Wilkes Barre.

 

Don

[The Geoff]

No, I mean tone killers, not a killer-tone!!

 

If I could speak American, I'd say 'They Suck, Dude!!'

 

But I can't

 

G.

[revolead]

"Do you notice this same sustain difference between these two guitars if you play 'em unplugged? If not, perhaps the combination of the guitar's wood and the trem-springs creates a particularly fertile ground for sustain-enhancing feedback..."

I suppose so, yes. One of the key things though is that the other guitar is 100% maple solid, so it has a very unique tone in and of itself and comes off as overly bright more often than not. It yields some sweet clean tones, especially through a cranked Fender tube amp, but it gets rather weak unplugged.

 

However, with the Jackson, I can almost feel the sustain in the back even when it's unplugged, so perhaps it was just a good cut. I did put quite a bit of effort into smoothing out the fretboard, new pickups, and adjusting the intonnation properly, so perhaps the extra TLC helps.

[revolead]

Originally posted by mdrs:

Revo...north of Allentown, south of Wilkes Barre.

 

Don

They just had a bunch of flooding up there. How'd you make out in all that?

[Caevan O'Shite]

Originally posted by mdrs:

"I've heard theories that it's the springs that make the chime. But I've also heard it was the routing in the strat body creating a chamber which affects the sound. I've also heard some who swear that their strat sounds better with the back spring cover left off."

I believe that it's all of the above- the springs, the routed cavities, the varying characteristics from guitar to guitar- that makes the whole. It all contributes.

 

Originally posted by mdrs:

"I read somewhere that Steve Vai puts tissue's in the "spring cavity" on his axe to help the tone."

On my custom "super-Strat" stylee, I started loosely wrapping a bit of electrical-tape around each spring, to dampen some of the overtones, but not totally mute their ringing-out. I did much the same thing with a bit of black acoustical-foam under the strings behind the nut, as well. I did this to cut down on dissonant little zingy overtones that I would hear jumping out and adding unwanted harsh dissonance to chords and double-stops and the like from time to time, especially when playing with a very clean, bright, present tone. (The active EMG's picked up EVERYTHING that you could throw at 'em!) It was probably more of a matter for me than it normally would've been 'cause I was playing a lot of sus4, added4, 6, 7, 9, etc. types of chords, through headphones much of the time... At a jam, on a stage, etc., it wasn't anything that'd be very noticed, if at all.

 

Originally posted by Geoff Byrne:

"It's the Floyd-Rose - I've said before & I stand by this - they are tone killers."

If I followed revo's lead, he was stating that his Floyd-equipped Jackson actually has more sustain than another "hardtail" axe that he has...

 

But, in general, your's is the much more typical sentiment, Geoff!

 

I'd say, rev, if it ain't broken, don't fix it!

 

I wouldn't want to route my Les Paul and install a Floyd Rose, but if I had a guitar with a floating Floyd-stylee that happened to sound great in and of its onliest lonesome, I wouldn't change the bridge, either.

[mdrs]

Thanks for asking, revo. I made out fine. I live on a hilltop!! Many of our local towns were literally closed up, with the local roads shut down. The road I live on was closed for almost two days. Seven local counties are declared Fed. disaster zones. Aside from the thunderstorm that just passed by (like we need any more rain) I'm fine, thank you! Many many others were not so lucky as I was.

 

Don

[mdrs]

Revo, the only other thing about a trem that I, personally, don't favor, is the "instability" of the bridge.

 

I play rather aggresively, meaning I tend to hit the strings pretty hard. Most trems will give me a "wobbly" sound when I'm cranking out some heavy chordage, or lead. I've learned over time to adjust my "attack" to avoid this.

 

I personally prefer a hardtail, so I can bang away! For me, anyway, it's hard to beat a good L.P. with 11's on it......oh, and a plexi 50 watt doesn't hurt my tone too much either....

 

Don

[revolead]

Don, I've heard the same things from others, and normally, I don't do trems. But for some reason, this one is sweet and never comes out of tune. I have literally not looked at the axe for a week at times and come back, only to find she's still in tune. I've never had a more reliable guitar, and I play pretty rough at times too.

[Dr. Ellwood]

I have allot of Strats, most with trem that are all but one blocked. My hardtail Strats have more sustain than my blocked or unblocked Strats, the hardtails (not blocked but hardtail bridge) have better more pure tone and sustain, these are all comparisions into a clean non reverb fender amp. The backplates on all my Strats are off.

[mdrs]

Ellwood,

 

So, you prefer the tone of your hardtail strats to any of your trem strats???

 

Don

[Dr. Ellwood]

Yes Sir Don! If it wasn't so much hassle I would have ALL the factory trems taken off them and be hardtail on everything except ONE. The aluminum strat would keep it's trem, I need one trem equiped Strat but that's it.

[mdrs]

very interesting!!!

 

Don

[Gifthorse]

Fixed bridge guitars will have better tone and sustain.

 

Floyds kill the tone to an extent. There is a trade off. They are an excellent design if you want a bar that won't go out of tune.

 

I have said it before, the best Floyd design that I have used when I had a tremelo was the Kahler Steeler. It was designed with tone in mind and used higher grade steel for everything making the fulcrum points last longer and transfer more tone.

 

I was using a Schaller floyd before this and there was NO comparison. I don't use a bar anymore, and I am sure there is more stuff out there now that help to solve the problem.

 

If you are happy with your floating bridge then be happy with it!!

[Gifthorse]

When I say sustain, I am not counting using the bar to milk feedback..

[Guitarzan]

sure, in theory a fixed bridge should have more sustain, but like it has been stated there are so many other factors.

the main thing i notice in trem guitars is a thinner high E. with one exception. for some reason my pacifica has brutally big high notes. could be the honking solid steel trem block.

a vintage trem with an actual solid steel block and the bent steel saddles would be the ultimate trem for tone imho.

another vibration robbing culprit in floyds is FLOATING setup. when the bridge is solidly coupled to the body it can't move and vibrations will carry better. but float that puppy and you now have a movable anchor that will rob some of those vibes.

i do like floyds though.

[The Geoff]

I've had the benefit of having played several guitars of the same type but one being hardtail and the other Floyd-Rose (Mainly Ibanez, it has to be said) and my experience is that the hardtail was almost always (to my ear) fuller with better sustain.

 

G.