Mode Question

[A String]

I don't know what's wrong with my memory lately but I can't figure this out...

 

Key of D, playing the notes:

D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D.

 

D major with a flatened seventh...Mixolidian? Then the same notes over the key of C is Dorian?

 

I can't believe I've forgotten this stuff. I used to teach it years ago...For some reason, it's just gone.

[dementedchord]

key of d needs a c# as well... yes as written it is mixolydian...remove the f# and its dorian...

[A String]

So what are the notes D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D played over the key of C?

[alittlebatty]

Yes,in D you have the mixolydian mode-all the notes are correct! But I'm not sure I'm following you on the "key of C Dorian" thing so I can't tell you on that. Explain,please grasshopper......

[A String]

If I play the notes D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D over a rhythm track with a guitar playing a "C" chord, what am I playing?

[mdrs]

?Whipping Post??

 

 

[Bbach1]

I thought a key was a key and the notes in the key are simply the notes in the key. The mode is dictated by the scale degree you start and end on. Therefore, the Key of D as you have it is simply a key of D with the 7th flatted. It is not mixolydian unless you start on the fifth degree which would be the A. Starting on the C# would be the Locrian mode.

If you are playing a key of C and starting on the D, it would be a Dorian mode in the key of C, but the key of C obviously has no sharps and flats, therefore you would not be sharping (is that a word?) the F. If you change the notes in the key, you are altering the key, no matter what mode you are in.

[A String]

Wait...I remember! It's Lydian right!

[Bbach1]

Originally posted by A String:

Wait...I remember! It's Lydian right!

No. It goes Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian.

[dementedchord]

ok.... here's your confusion....the keyis the signature....c- no shrps or flats g has 1 # d has 2#sok....?? simply playing from d-d doesnt make it the key of d.... if you take any key signature and play from any noe to its octave you havent changed the key ...you are however playing in modes.....so if you go from d-d with no alterations (key of c) that would be d-dorian... if you play d-d with 1 # (f#) you are in the key of g and d-d would be mixolydian.... if you have 2#s (f# and c#) you are in the KEY of d ( modal name incidently is IONIAN so for ny given key signature you can play modally from any pitch and it breaks down this way root to root is ionian 2-2 is dorian... 3 is phrygian (try this for latin flava)4 is lydian 5 is mixolydian 6 is aeolian (natural minor) and last but not least 7 is locrian ( also known as musica in diabolus (sp?) or scale of the devil) remember there will be a quiz on thurs.... good luck

[A String]

Hmmm...I seem to recall Lydian is a major scale with a raised 4th. If I'm playing a solo using the notes C,D,E,F#,G,A,B,C, it's a C major scale with a raised 4th...Crap...I can't believe how much of this stuff I've forgotten.

[Fumblyfingers]

Best I can figure it out on such short notice and with a head full of computer woes...is that you are playing the Lydian mode of a Major scale..

 

Lydian in C Major would be from F so you would have...

 

F G A B C D E F

 

which would give a note spacing of...

 

(T)-(T)-(T)-(ST)-(T)-(T)-(ST)

 

So if you did C Lydian you would have...

 

C D E F# G A B C

 

One sharp is the key of G Major which is one step around the Cycle of 5ths, a closely related key to C major. The F# would set up some interesting dissonance.

 

You would be playing a G major Scale over C Major, starting from C.

[Bbach1]

Originally posted by Fumblyfingers:

You would be playing a G major Scale over C Major.

Exactly. Well explained Obewon.

[A String]

So, is there no name for playing a G major scale over a C? It's just a G Major scale?

[mdrs]

If music ability is correlated with higher intellect, then how come I don't have any idea what you guys are talking about?

 

Please DON'T answer that question.

 

Roy Buchannan and I are going to completely ignore you for here on.

 

Don

[A String]

Here is an example of what I'm doing...

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=265626&songID=4104299

[Ricochet]

Originally posted by Bbach when I'm ready:

No. It goes Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian.

Long ago, I thought up a mnemonic to help me recall those:

 

I Don't Play Lousy Music, At Last!

[Fumblyfingers]

Originally posted by A String:

So, is there no name for playing a G major scale over a C? It's just a G Major scale?

In this case just call it C Lydian if you want.

 

It sounds good..that F# has a great flavour.

 

I mean rather than saying "I am going to play a G Major Scale over your C Major" it seems easier and quite accurate to say " I am going to solo in C Lydian "

 

I dunno, any modes experts want to weigh in here?

[Hardtail]

Originally posted by Fumblyfingers:

Originally posted by A String:

So, is there no name for playing a G major scale over a C? It's just a G Major scale?

In this case just call it C Lydian if you want.

 

It sounds good..that F# has a great flavour.

 

I mean rather than saying "I am going to play a G Major Scale over your C Major" it seems easier and quite accurate to say " I am going to solo in C Lydian "

 

I dunno, any modes experts want to weigh in here?

That's what I would call it. You're playing over the key of C with a raised 4th (F#) so it is C Lydian.

 

I'll do something similar like play B Dorian over the key of Bmin (Dmaj) which raises the 6th of a minor scale. It sounds kind of cool.

[mdrs]

yZe,,,,,please don't misinterpert my attempts at self deprecating humor as a knock on you, or any of the others who do know what your are talking about here. My comments were not meant to kock you at all. Chill baby!!

 

There have been studies that indicated that musical ability (also higer language skills, like the ability to speak several languages) are in fact correlated with higher intellect. Most observers would see this as commplement to talented musicians, and teachers, such as yourself. That's certainly the light in which I meant it.

 

My comment about me not understanding you, was the self deprecating humor...i.e. making fun of myself, not you!!! And, you are right. At this stage of my life, I really do not have any realistic or sensible desire to learn theory. I'm getting older, I'm very busy with my profession and practice, and family, and other passions that I pursue, as well as my guitar playing. So, even if I desired to learn theory, it's not very realistic for me at this point.

 

Finally, Roy was quoted as basicaly saying that learning to read music, and theory would only tie him down. That may have been true for him, since he was somewhat of a inovative music genius. But, it could have also been his cop out, since he never bothered to learn! Again, not a knock on those of you who have taken the time and effort to better yourselves by learning.

 

Jocularity can make life more fun and enjoyable. Dont' worry, be happy.

 

Peace brother

 

Don

[Tone Taster]

I just wasn't sure where you were coming from, that's all

 

you coulda put a mr. green there or something

 

I dig Roy, like anyone else, and I don't believe that reading music and theory is #1, either

 

One should be able to grab some chords, groove on some strumming, and maybe riff out on some blues.

 

As an instructor by trade, however, it is part of my gig to ensure people learn theory, technique as it applies directly to the axe in real live musical situations so it is not just a bunch of mental masturbation

 

No one can teach anyone how to play by ear, though. That is something one has to pursue themselves rigorously

[Justus A. Picker]

I wanna know what the rest of the progression is and where the Cmaj chord fits into it!

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Justus A. Picker:

I wanna know what the rest of the progression is and where the Cmaj chord fits into it!

The originator only gave us 1 chord and the scale he intends to use over it.

 

A String, is this a 1 chord vamp or are there some changes/key shifts?

[Justus A. Picker]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by Justus A. Picker:

I wanna know what the rest of the progression is and where the Cmaj chord fits into it!

The originator only gave us 1 chord and the scale he intends to use over it.

 

A String, is this a 1 chord vamp or are there some changes/key shifts?

Exactly. The context changes the way you view (hear) it.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Justus A. Picker:

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by Justus A. Picker:

I wanna know what the rest of the progression is and where the Cmaj chord fits into it!

The originator only gave us 1 chord and the scale he intends to use over it.

 

A String, is this a 1 chord vamp or are there some changes/key shifts?

Exactly. The context changes the way you view (hear) it.

Well, you could play through all 12 keys over the c-chord if you wanted to, but it would have to be done w/o sounding dorky

[Fumblyfingers]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

The problem when one "thinks" gmajor scale over "C chord"is that there may be a tendency to emphasize or infer without trying to; the G-B-D (1,3,5 of G major) over the C major chord

Not that you are wrong in any way, just different approaches...but I don't think a G Maj triad was inferred, rather the full G Major scale, starting from the IV th degree of the scale, C. This would be the Lydian Mode. Beside he did not even state what type of triad as he is only playing the root and 5th, C and G and the Lydian "flavour " is very nice.

 

See, it is easier to look ata scale IN LIGHT OF THE chord and NOT the chord inlight of the scale Maybe but in a way the chord is there because of the scale. Triads and chord's are built off the degrees of the scale as you know by following certain rules. Perhaps one could say it depends what sound,style or flavour you are going for.

 

So, if you think "C major scale, but substitute an F# for an F" ....why...why would someone decide to substitute an F# for F...what rule is being followed...why not play C maj and substitute A# for A? I mean in the heat of soloing is one really going to think like that? That is why I think the Modes are helpful in coming up with different approaches to soloing. Some prefer the scale as relates to the chord and some the arpeggio as relates to the chord...is that a fair way of putting it? Linear and vertical...both ways are good.

 

For Rock and closely related stuff it seems the modes make sense, especially to get someone started soloing over less involved changes. I could be wrong about this...this is just the way I learned it.

 

For those not famliar with the modes they are just the scales that are built from the different degree's of the Major scale.

 

C Major scale is

 

C D E F G A B C

 

Each note can also be called a Degree of the scale and is written by Roman Numerals

 

I II III IV V VI VII VIII which is the Ionian Mode or major scale

 

II - II of that same scale is the Dorian Mode..same notes, just the CMaj scale starting from D

 

III-III of that scale is the Phrygian Mode...same again

 

IV-IV is the Lydian Mode

 

V-V is the Mixolydian Mode

 

VI-VI is theAeolian Mode

 

VII-VII is the Locrian Mode

 

As you see all the same notes, different starting points. Also once plotted out on the finger board in 4 -5 fret spreads, these modes form very distinct patterns. Once you learn them you will have a grasp on how to improvise using the entire neck. Some guys hate this and tout learning the notes on the fretboard by heart so you can know what to play for any chord. Totally valid, but this way works also and is much easier and faster to learn in my opinion. It jumpstarts you.

 

So if playing an Am chord, or any extension of that within the C major scale..Am7, Am9, A m11, Am13, the Aeolian mode works very nicely. For a D minor chord, the Dorian Mode will work well etc etc etc.

 

To me though, the modes provide me with an organized method of setting up dissonances.

 

For example in the Key of C Major, you could solo or play a melody over a C maj chord using the Lydian Mode starting from F and you would avoid any dissonance as all the notes are in the scale. It would also give a different "flavor" than if you played using the Ionian mode, or straight Maj scale starting from C.

But if we use the Lydian mode starting from C, what we are doing is playing an altered form of the Major scale, with the 4th sharpened. This sharpened 4th sets up dissonance whenever it is used.

 

You could also play a C Maj arpeggio with or without extensions and you could also play a Vulcanian Intergalactic Dropped 15th Scale.... it's all good

 

--------------------

Life is short...live it!

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=452567 quote:

[A String]

See, that is how I was looking at it. As a C Major with a raised 4th which made it a Lydian sound.

 

One of the things I love to do is get a group of the same notes, hit a chord and play a solo over it. Then, hit a different chord and, still using the same notes, figure out how to make them fit. It really helps me to "hear" the scales (or modes in this case). It was something I started doing years ago when I first discovered "relative minors".

 

This is what I did with the example in my original post. I hit the "D" ("D" and "A") and played the D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D notes to give me a "Dorian" sound. I then hit the "C" ("C" and "G") and played the same notes (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D)(Listen to the clip in my previous post) to reveal a Lydian Sound.

 

My problem was, it's been years since I've thought of theory. For the life of me, I couldn't remember the order of the modes, in order to ascertain which modes, I had stumbled upon.

 

For another approach at the modes, you can look at them this way as well:

 

Major Modes:

-Ionian - The Major Scale

-Lydian - Major with a raised 4th

-Mixolydian - Major with a flattened 7th

 

Minor Modes:

-Dorian - Minor with a raised 6th

-Phrygian - Minor with a flattened 2nd

-Aeolian - The natural minor scale

-Locrian - Flattened 2nd and a flattened 4th

[mdrs]

If someone wanted an introductory explaination of what all of these modes, etc., are, where would one go? Is there an introductory book that explains all this? Where do you begin?

 

 

Don

[A String]

Here is another way to look at it:

 

Relative Modes of C Major

 

C D E F G A B C - C Ionian Mode (Major)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

 

---D E F G A B C D - D Dorian Mode

---2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2

 

------E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian Mode

------3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3

 

---------F G A B C D E F - F Lydian Mode

---------4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4

 

------------G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian Mode

------------5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5

 

---------------A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian Mode (Minor)

---------------6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6

 

------------------B C D E F G A B - B Locrian Mode

------------------7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

[Bbach1]

Originally posted by mdrs:

If someone wanted an introductory explaination of what all of these modes, etc., are, where would one go? Is there an introductory book that explains all this? Where do you begin?

 

 

Don

All over the internet. Just google modes. Not complicated stuff at all. If I can get it, anyone can get it.

As a side note, I caught on to your sense of humor right away.