New bootleg CD ring

[ha ha faa_Q]

Thought you might be interested in this - Bootleg CDs have been available here in Barcelona (illegally sold in the streets, often displayed on the top of a bedsheet) for years. But now there is a new ring going on. People (usually young Asian girls) walk into bars, cafes, Internet cafes, clothing stores - actually, just about anywhere they can - and sell the CDs directly. CDs typically sell for around two Euros ($2). If they don´t have what you´re looking for, they show you a list of thousands that you can have made for you to pick up at a later date. This has literally taken over the city. For the cost of a beer, one can take home a CD, packaged as though it were new (even including liner notes). I can´t think of one friend of mine here who buys CDs at music stores anymore - CDs in stores here usually cost between 25 and 30 Euros (roughly the same in dollars). Any thoughts? I´d be curious to hear what you think of it. -- Jimmy

[Rod S]

We have a big problem here in Brazil as well. Some smaller streets in downtown are full of the 'cds spread on a bedsheet' I still see people at CD stores, though. [quote]Originally posted by Jimmy Foster: [b] I can´t think of one friend of mine here who buys CDs at music stores anymore - CDs in stores here usually cost between 25 and 30 Euros (roughly the same in dollars).[/b][/quote]CDs are also prohibitively expensive here. In the order of R$25-35, where people usually make no more than 1:1 to the dollar, usually less. I end up limiting to about 2-3 cds a month, and I'm usually very selective about what I buy. I end up resorting to kazaa to try out to (Hold on your flames for a second) new music, since I got sick of buying crap. I haven't seen people actually selling stuff person to person, but the amount of email spam in the sort is amazing. I can order just about any software/music CD for about R$5 (music) or R$15 (software) and have delivered to my house. The police has been making some headway in stopping this, but it really boils down to people's choices. The market is this big because there's a demand. :freak:

[LiveMusic]

Oh, wow, that's terrible (for writers/artists). I just don't know what's going to happen with the rampant piracy from Kazaa alone not to mention CD duping like you mention. What a mess.

[Rod S]

[quote]Originally posted by Jimmy Foster: [b]People (usually young Asian girls) walk into bars, cafes, Internet cafes, clothing stores - actually, just about anywhere they can - and sell the CDs directly. [/b][/quote]Oh yeah, one more thing. It's funny you mentioned asian girls. This city got flooded with chinese people (they are calling it the chinese mafia), mostly young women in their late teens-mid twenties, selling fake merchandise/cheap jewelry on the streets. I don't remember ever seing this before. The newspaper also has new of stuff getting apprehended in docks and airports, but the stuff just floods in. More often than not, it seems, tied to drug traffic.

[doug osborne]

This problem of international piracy is an order of magnitude larger than that of internet file trading (inaccurately called piracy), yet the RIAA thugs refuse to put a fraction of their efforts into fighting this that they do into fighting Napster etc. Every record contract has a certain percentage of promotional product built in, paid for out of the artist's advance, that largely goes to lining the pockets of the record executives at the expense of the artists, yet the industry is spending large sums of money, trying to put college kids in jail, and trying to circumvent our constitutional freedoms, all to pad their bottom line. Putting more effort both economic and diplomatic into fighting piracy, not only of our arts and entertainment but of hard goods as well, would put much more back into the US economy than any number of bombs dropped on foreign countries, IMO, but the military/industrial complex has a stranglehold on US politics and economy.

[Dylan]

Maybe it's just me, but I see a huge difference between a kid who downloads music for himself vs. people who distrubute music for profit illegally.

[LiveMusic]

[quote]Originally posted by Pain in the Glaven: [b]Maybe it's just me, but I see a huge difference between a kid who downloads music for himself vs. people who distrubute music for profit illegally.[/b][/quote]In the eyes of the law, if you possess stolen goods, you are in trouble, right? Seems it used to be that way. Regarding your comment... you say you see a huge difference... meaning the kid doing it is okay or not so bad that anything should be done? I don't know your entire views, so I'm not picking on you (even if you disagreed, we'd just disagree)... but it seems to me that FAR too many people have the attitude that little johnny doing it is just fine. Problem is, it's enmasse. There's MILLIONS of little johnnys. And Uncle Bobs and Gramma and everybody and his brother doing it. Stealing is stealing, no? Sorry... but I keep going to back to... my brother and have created software for sale. People steal the software files, we ain't happy. A song is software; simple as that. People get the songs for free... that model won't work in the long haul. Eventually, who in their right mind will make music?

[the stranger]

If we all had any sense, we would buy these pirated copies of music and send $10 directly to the artists. We can cut the record companies right out of the loop.

[Dylan]

The difference, Duke, is that the kid isn't going to be selling entire works for money. He is only downloading music for his own pleasure. I'm not saying either is right, but stealing for profit is much worse. Would you consider someone who tapes TV shows on a VCR to be contributing to piracy? How about taping music from the radio?

[Anifa]

[quote] CDs are also prohibitively expensive here. In the order of R$25-35, where people usually make no more than 1:1 to the dollar, usually less. [/quote]Why are the costs of retail CD'S so expensive? Granted, I realize that shipping costs to foreign countries are more expensive than domestic rates, but not so much as to pull $25.00 - $35.00 a pop. These prices seem ridiculous.

[Rod S]

[quote]Originally posted by Anifa: [b]Why are the costs of retail CD'S so expensive? Granted, I realize that shipping costs to foreign countries are more expensive than domestic rates, but not so much as to pull $25.00 - $35.00 a pop. These prices seem ridiculous.[/b][/quote]Honestly, I can't give you a straight answer, but here's a few issues. - Taxes are higher here for products. Income tax is lower, but I think you do get more screwed in the end than in the US for instance. - Exchange rate. The exchange is about 3:1. It's weird, because CD prices don't really fluctuate too much with exchange rate. I think prices have been inflated from the beginning as a 'protection' against exchange rate fluctuations. However, if this was the only issue, than cds from brazilian bands would be cheaper, which they aren't. Which comes to my last issue. - Pricing strategy. A lot of the cds are pressed here in Brazil, so it's not an exact formula of just converting the prices in dollars to the amount charge here. Mind you, the prices I mentioned are for `common` cds, recent releases or popular cds. I did go to a store once to pick up some jazz cds, and only two cds came out at about 100 (Monk and Bill Evans, I think). Needless to say, I didn't buy them. The only reason the whole `indie` thing hasn't really exploded here as it did in the US is price of gear. But I think it will, and they will be able to undercut the prices of commercial cds big time. The recording industry is in big trouble here (as far as local talent), funny to see articles in the newspaper here reflecting the same issues that are discussed in this forum from time to time.

[Anifa]

I see! So if a Brazilian were to visit the USA and purchase recording gear or a few CD'S, would these things be trapped up in customs and then disallowed? It's interesting to see how other governments operate

[Rod S]

[quote]Originally posted by Anifa: [b]I see! So if a Brazilian were to visit the USA and purchase recording gear or a few CD'S, would these things be trapped up in customs and then disallowed? It's interesting to see how other governments operate[/b][/quote]They limit to US$500 per person for goods purchased abroad when returning from trips - which is not much as far as recording gear. You get taxed 100% of the purchase price above that amount. Yuck. The laws are more flexible if you live abroad and return with this equipment (which is what I did). As long as it doesn't look like you're bringing stuff to resell (like 5 identical items), you don't get taxed. I had about $10,000 worth of gear, no hassle. When equipment comes to Brazil thru the import channels, you end up paying about 60% import taxes. When you put is sales commision, gear ends up being expensive. Since stores are usually operating on small stock and sales are small in quantity, you pay the premium. Which is the part that pisses me off. I do understand taxing goods heavily when it's competing with the local market, but it stinks when this is not the case. We do make things like PA Equipment, eqs, crossover, speakers, decent mixers, but everything else is imported. I work for a company where we import about 60-70% of what we sell. The laws are crazy. Well, you end up playing by the game, and do with what you have. No point complaining to much - specialy since I'm well off compared to most amateur musicians I know.

[Dylan]

[quote]Originally posted by LiveMusic: [b]In the eyes of the law, if you possess stolen goods, you are in trouble, right? [/b][/quote]Right. [quote][b]Regarding your comment... you say you see a huge difference... meaning the kid doing it is okay or not so bad that anything should be done?[/b][/quote]I didn't say that little Johnny is right or shouldn't be punished. BUT, there needs to be different punishments for people who download music for personal use vs those who SELL and distribute pirated CD's for money.

[Deathtoallwhoopposeme]

[quote]Originally posted by LiveMusic: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Pain in the Glaven: [b]Maybe it's just me, but I see a huge difference between a kid who downloads music for himself vs. people who distrubute music for profit illegally.[/b][/quote]In the eyes of the law, if you possess stolen goods, you are in trouble, right? Seems it used to be that way. Regarding your comment... you say you see a huge difference... meaning the kid doing it is okay or not so bad that anything should be done? I don't know your entire views, so I'm not picking on you (even if you disagreed, we'd just disagree)... but it seems to me that FAR too many people have the attitude that little johnny doing it is just fine. Problem is, it's enmasse. There's MILLIONS of little johnnys. And Uncle Bobs and Gramma and everybody and his brother doing it. Stealing is stealing, no? Sorry... but I keep going to back to... my brother and have created software for sale. People steal the software files, we ain't happy. A song is software; simple as that. People get the songs for free... that model won't work in the long haul. Eventually, who in their right mind will make music?[/b][/quote]Sorry Duke but although you are right, Stealing is Stealing, you are not seeing the point and over-simplifying the situation...Here's an analogy of what's going on: If it were Food or Water, or Milk and the controling interest was making the Food or drink available at Enormously high mark up and it was prehibitively expensive for many people to buy, what do you think they would naturally do? They would turn to the Black Market..I'm not saying it's right or wrong, i'm just saying this is what human nature would cause to happen. This is what is happening to recorded music and the Music industry is screwing themselves, the Artists and ultimately the consumer for their artificially jacked up CD prices. People want their music and it has been demonstrated...they want it for a fair price or they will get it elsewhere..That has also been demonstrated. The Record industry also has failed to seize the opportunity to get the computer literate MILLIONS across the world, used to and behind a LEGAL, Legitimate and Easy to use method for downloading their music...Again, the Public spoke, and they chose not to listen..Again, the public turns to alternative means and in the absence of any legitimate means to get their music on the web, or preview it before they download it, the turn to alternative means and have gotten used to it. Now, Illigal downloading is RAMPANT and as a result of the Record industry's total lack of even trying to give the public what they desired, pretty much accepted as OK in society. It's the Music Business's Fault this all happened. They could have jumped on it in the beginning and had a legal, legitimate business model in place and maintained a sizeable percentage of their lost revenue. This is the law of supply and demand at work it and a texbook outcome of what happens when the public is ignored....Hopefully this will be the beginning of a new paridigm for this industry, and it will correct itself....To the benefit of the consumer...The Buying Public and the people....People will support the industry if it's fair priced.....In this Case, the public has spoken..the industry has yet to listen...the more they try to prosecute and fight the very public that is supposed to support them, the more backlash there will be...The Industry will go down. Inventive, independent outlets will spawn and give the public what they want and it will be reinvented......

[KenElevenShadows]

On most of the streets in Peru, there are plenty of bootleg CDs (many CD-Rs) of English and North American pop and rock (Beatles, Britney, Queen, Nirvana, Christina Aguilera, Ricky Martin, etc.). They are in stalls up and down the street, usually, and many of them are compilations. In Thailand, on many of the south islands, you can simply walk into a place and they will burn you a copy of compilations. In these places, they have a wider selection, including the above but also having a lot of electronica, chill, downtempo, ambient, and other kinds of modern electronic music and more heavy metal. You can also get a lot of this stuff in Bangkok, too, from the street vendors.

[Slowly]

What if, you could only download a file size equal to or less than files that were converted from wav. on your pc. That way, you would have to contribute in order to share. Kcbass

[Virtual Jim]

[quote]Originally posted by Doug Osborne: [b]This problem of international piracy is an order of magnitude larger than that of internet file trading (inaccurately called piracy), yet the RIAA thugs refuse to put a fraction of their efforts into fighting this that they do into fighting Napster etc. Every record contract has a certain percentage of promotional product built in, paid for out of the artist's advance, that largely goes to lining the pockets of the record executives at the expense of the artists, yet the industry is spending large sums of money, trying to put college kids in jail, and trying to circumvent our constitutional freedoms, all to pad their bottom line. Putting more effort both economic and diplomatic into fighting piracy, not only of our arts and entertainment but of hard goods as well, would put much more back into the US economy than any number of bombs dropped on foreign countries, IMO, but the military/industrial complex has a stranglehold on US politics and economy.[/b][/quote]1. RIAA = Recording Industry Association of [b]America[/b]. Here in [b]America[/b], this practice is not a threat, but internet file-copying services are. 2. For all this talk of lining the pockets of major label record executives, what are you doing to support the bands? Are you going to their shows and buying their merch? Are you buying independently released CDs? Do you ever praise a record label when they allow virtual-listening parties for new releases? 3. Living in DC, I'm much more worried about another plane flying into the Pentagon, another Anthrax scare, or another sniper than I am about money lost to file-copying. The federal gov't's primary role is the physical protection of her citizens.

[pigknuckles]

This is not surprising. The RIAA blew it 15 years ago by not agreeing upon and implementing a suitable copy protection scheme for CD's before inexpensive CD recorders came to market. It's much too late now. Also nearly impossible to prosecute enough bootleggers effectively to make much difference, especially internationally. I can't think of anything else easier or considered more generally acceptable to steal/copy than recorded music. It seems music delivery must change in the near future in order to have much value.

[Virtual Jim]

[quote]Originally posted by pigknuckles: [b]This is not surprising. The RIAA blew it 15 years ago by not agreeing upon and implementing a suitable copy protection scheme for CD's before inexpensive CD recorders came to market. It's much too late now. Also nearly impossible to prosecute enough bootleggers effectively to make much difference, especially internationally. I can't think of anything else easier or considered more generally acceptable to steal/copy than recorded music. It seems music delivery must change in the near future in order to have much value.[/b][/quote]Oh yeah! I mean, they did such a great fucking job on digital audio tape! Woo hoo! I mean, EVERYONE has a DAT player, and boy is it hard to make copies of those suckers! I have a portable one, one in my living room, one in my computer, one in my car... Get a clue.

[Dak Lander]

I'm dating myself severly here but most of you know I'm an old bastard anyway. This cd pirate stuff ain't nothing new. There were tens of millions of cassette tapes pirated and sold, along with 8 track tapes. Hell, I bought a whole shit load of vinyl (records, platters what ever you want to call them) while on leave in Kaoshung in the early 70s. Twenty five cents a pop wasn't too bad when a record was going for over five bucks. In those days there was a quality difference, more so than the difference today, or even with the cassettes. The end all of the situation is just this: No matter how cheaply music is produced in a viable medium, there are those that want it for less and if they can't get it for less they'll get it free, some how, some way. Ain't no differant thang....

[Alndln]

Maybe if we make our CD's out of Kryptonite, the bad guys and chineese chicks will faint when they go near it. :eek:

[doug osborne]

[quote]Originally posted by DC_Jim: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Doug Osborne: [b]This problem of international piracy is an order of magnitude larger than that of internet file trading (inaccurately called piracy), yet the RIAA thugs refuse to put a fraction of their efforts into fighting this that they do into fighting Napster etc. ...[/b][/quote]1. RIAA = Recording Industry Association of [b]America[/b]. Here in [b]America[/b], this practice is not a threat, but internet file-copying services are.[/b] Piracy and bootlegging (fake Levi's and Calvin Klein Jeans, fake Tiffany jewelry, fake Warner Bros. CDs for sale on the streets of Shanghai or New York), is in economic terms, one of the biggest economic problems in the US. It's a threat because there is no international cooperation to establish standards for enforcement or a revenue stream. This is so, in part, because the RIAA/ClearChannel picks easy targets, based on their lack of competence, political connectedness, and clearer immediate benefit to executives whose jobs are inherently tenuous. [b]2. For all this talk of lining the pockets of major label record executives, what are you doing to support the bands? Are you going to their shows and buying their merch? Are you buying independently released CDs? Do you ever praise a record label when they allow virtual-listening parties for new releases?[/b] I'm not quite sure why I'm being attacked here...I am a local artist, I go to shows, I spent hundreds of dollars in the last few weeks on pre-recorded music. Record labels owe me far, far more after 25 years of ripping me off as an artist and a consumer than I owe them in some kind of compliments (bitter :freak: ?) [b]3. Living in DC, I'm much more worried about another plane flying into the Pentagon, another Anthrax scare, or another sniper than I am about money lost to file-copying. The federal gov't's primary role is the physical protection of her citizens.[/b][/quote]For political reasons, the government has not done a wonderful job at protecting our citizens over the last few years, and for political reasons, they haven't been protecting our artists, either. It's a rich-get-richer scenario in both cases. Trading an audio file on the internet is a completely different animal than selling a pirated or bootlegged cd or dvd on the street. ON TOPIC: International piracy of US products (music and otherwise), is an important concern for our federal government, and one of the things I wish our tax dollars were being spent on.

[Joachim P. Dyndale]

A former teacher of mine is the conducter of a choir called "Oslo Gospel Choir". He also writes/arranges/produces most of their songs. They were actually the artists who sold the most CDs in Norway during the 90's as a whole! No one in the world sold more CDs in Norway during the 90's than Oslo Gospel Choir. That's pretty amazing... Anyway, he once told me about this time when they were on tour. They had a concert in a church in Poland. After the concert he was available to sign CDs and such... A lot of people came to him with bootleg CDs asking him to sign them! He didn't know what to say. That's just crazy. It shows that a lot of people just don't even consider that fact that bootleg CDs are illegal. He eventually just decided to smile and sign the CDs. In some countries, mostly countries with lots of poor people, this kind of piracy is extremely common. That's scary.