?HOW TO MOD A LESLIE 145?

[mdrs]

I've got a beautiful old Leslie Model 145 speaker cabinet. I am a major Clapton fan, and especially like his use of the Leslie speaker cab to obtain that shimmering, almost spooky, chorus like tone that nothing else can really reproduce. Mr. Leslie was a genius, IMO. My 145 has never been modified in any way. When I play thru the "foot pedal controler", it sounds great, but the volume is very low. It is so quiet, that there is no way to play my guitar thru the Leslie and be heard in a band setting. I've heard that Clapton's Leslie is modified in some way....??I've heard that he uses a Marshall JCM 800 to drive the speakers in the Leslie cab??

 

Does anyone know exactly how Clapton's Leslie is modified? Can I use my Marshall JCM 800 100 watt to drive the Leslie? Will I need to replace the speakers to handle the JCM 800's 100 watts of power?? How do I get my Leslie up and running properly? HELP ME!!!

 

Thanks!

 

Don

[pollock]

When did Clapton do that?

[mdrs]

Hey Pollock....Clapton started using a Leslie speaker cab to create a chorus like effect when playing with Cream. Listen to Badge for one of the best examples. I think he actually got the idea from George Harrison.....where Harrison got it I don't know!! EC still uses it as a part of his live set up. He had it during his recent Cream reunion shows. I've heard that Eddie Van Halen used two Leslies on stage, one on either side of the stage. This apparently created a rather amazing "phase effect" from the two Leslies.

 

A Leslie is a lot like a chorus effect. But, rotating speaker cones and a rotating drum mechanically distort the sound waves. This creates a physical alteration of the sound waves, and the sound this creates is truely unmatched, at least for this type of an effect. Here is a link to an excellent article that goes into detail, explaining how a Leslie cab works;

 

http://www.theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/mystery/mystery.html

 

If anyone knows how to mod a Leslie, PLEASE HELP ME!!!!

 

Don

[mdrs]

There must be a Leslie fanatic out there......???

[disaster]

try asking these guys:

 

http://bborgan.com/bborgan_index.htm

[Ricochet]

Dude, I wouldn't mod a Leslie 145. It's too valuable as it is.

[Ricochet]

To amplify my last response a bit, I'd love to have such a Leslie to hook up to my Hammond, but they generally go for more than I can spare now.

 

I cringe when I hear such a question asked. It's as if someone proposed to take a 1958 Les Paul and mod it into a keytar.

[nursers]

Originally posted by Ricochet:

Dude, I wouldn't mod a Leslie 145. It's too valuable as it is.

Absolutely - couldn't agree more

[MidLifeCrisis]

The original tube amp and speakers are what give Leslie's their original sound. If you are going to mod it you are much better off just getting a Leslie simulation pedal.

Think of it the same way as replacing the neck and pickups on a 58 Les Paul. You would ruin the value and ruin the sound.

Sell the 145 and get a Les Paul and a leslie simulator.

[mdrs]

Hold on here guys.

 

A '58 Les Paul (assuming you are talking a burst with PAF's) is worth from $150,000 (if it's beat) and on up. A Leslie isn't anywhere near that. If you'll pay me that amount for my Leslie 145, I'll drive it to your house tonight!!! Sorry, I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but I paid something like $350 for mine a couple of years ago. The current book value for a model 145 in high condition, is $500. Believe me, I value it. But it is not the Holy Grail. I'd gladly use a pedal to replicate the sound of a guitar thru a Leslie. But, I've never heard anything that does come close. The live sound of a guitar played thru a Leslie cab is worth much more than $500 dollars, to me anyway. And, the "original sound" of a Leslie is really generated by the rotating speaker cones and "drum", that mechanically alter the sound waves.

 

Now, I don't think that the Leslie/guitar sound I'm after is derived from a un-modified Leslie. Clapton (and Eddie Van Halen, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Peter Frampton, etc etc) all play (or played) their guitar thru a Leslie as a part of their live rig. Unless I'm missing something (which certainly is possible!!), a virginal Leslie 145 is way too quiet to be audible when played along side of other guitars, bass, and drums, in a live setting. I've read an interview with Clapton's guitar tech where he aluded to the fact that Clapton's Leslie was driven by (if I recall correctly) a JCM 800?????

 

I am a committed vintage amp and guitaraholic. I would never violate a true vintage piece, such as a '58 LP. I do appreciate you expressing your opinions. But, moding a Leslie is not sacrilege.

 

I'm fairly sure that modding the Leslie would just involve changing the speakers to ones that would handle a higher powered amp, and simply using a free standing amp (like a JCM 800) to drive the new speakers. I'd think that the Leslie would easily be put back into it's original condition by putting the original speakers back in, and hooking up the original on board amp. But, I really don't know for sure. I'm hoping someone out there will know about this, and post the info!!!

 

Thanks!

 

Don

[Steve Nathan]

Are you using a TrekII preamp? You need a TrekII UC-1A COMBO PRE-AMP

I have a couple of 122s (one is a modded 147) that I frequently hook up with the TrekII and It screams. I also have let Dann Huff use it a number of times to play guitar through, and again, it has tons of volume. Maybe you are using the wrong input jack.

Additionally, I am familiar with the sound Clapton got on all of those old records and it never sounded to me like a modded Leslie. The sound would be drastically different with a Marshall front end and replacement speakers. A big part of what makes old leslies sound so good is the inefficiency of the speaker. Also, back then (for historical perspective) guitar players often would plug in to the RCA input jack on the volume pedal of a B-3, to get that sound.

What your suggesting to do to your 145 would be like taking a vintage Fender Concert or Deluxe, discarding the old blue jensens and replacing them with new Eminence Screamers. It might be louder, but it will sound like sh*t.

My last suggestion would be to replace the tubes in the 145. Try Svetlana 6550s. They'll give you more volume and a really nice crunch when you push them.

[mdrs]

thanks, Disaster. That's a great web site.

[mdrs]

Thanks for the reply, Steve. I do have a Trek II UC-1A pre amp pedal. Maybe the tubes in my 145's amp are shot?? I think I'll bring the amp to my amp tech guy, and have him check it out for me. And I will check out the Svetlana 6550s.

 

You are the man, Steve. Thank you so much for the info.

 

Don

[Mr. Nightime]

Whatever you do, DON'T MOD THE LESLIE!!!

If you want a good guitar Leslie, hunt down a Leslie 18. They connected to the guitar amp, and had a forward mounted speaker into a drum. that's more likely what you hear when you hear a guitar through a Leslie. Find an organist that can treat the 145 right and sell it to him.

 

Another way to go is the Motion sound stuff. I've heard guitar through mine, and it has that Leslie sound. All without carving up a classic amp. After all, you wouldn't carve up a classic Marshall 100, would you?

[Dave Pierce]

Originally posted by mdrs:

The current book value for a model 145 in high condition, is $500.

I don't know where you got the "book value", but I'll give $600 for high-condition 145's to all comers.

 

I'll keep the best one for myself, and make a nice profit selling the rest for what they're actually worth, which is probably more like $1200-1500.

 

--Dave

[mdrs]

Hey Dave,

 

The "book" is the Vintage Guitar Price Guide 2006. I bought my 145 from a friend, who runs one of the bigger Guitar Center stores. He is also one of their Vintage "experts". It was one of two he personally owned. I'm pretty sure I paid him about $350, and that was about two years ago. Maybe I should buy the other one he has???

 

Don

[Ricardo.]

Does this end it?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leslie-Speaker-145-Vintage-Tube-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ7422008755QQihZ016QQcategoryZ64430QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Final price: $666

[mdrs]

Ronnie....thanks for the advice. I'm hoping my only real issue with my 145 is ??old tubes, or some other amp issue. I'm going to bring the amp to my amp tech, and see what he thinks.

 

Are there any other people out there who feel that a Leslie model 145 is worth over a grand??

 

Don

[mdrs]

Hey Starcaster....I'd say that pretty much sums it up!!

 

Don

[Ricochet]

Originally posted by mdrs:

But, moding a Leslie is not sacrilege.

Yes, I think it is. Doing what you're proposing would irreparably destroy its character. They're not being made any more, which means a lot more to me than whether one can afford to throw away the money they paid for it. Look into the new rotary speaker systems from Motion Sound and others, which are being made more to the specifications you seem to be looking for.

 

Yeah, I'd pop $666 right quickly for a nice one. There hasn't been one in this area that went for under $1000 in a long time. But I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for one that had the speakers replaced.

 

Now, there are lots of other Leslie types designed for use with other organs like Conns and Thomases, etc. (which have little or no market value themselves these days and little interest to players) that might have great potential as guitar Leslies. But I sure hope you'll leave a nice Hammond Leslie as it is.

[Dave Pierce]

Ah, my bad. I was thinking of the value of a 122.

 

Hmmm. I didn't realize a 145 could be had for so much less. I might think about grabbing one! Of course, then I'd have to haul the damn thing to gigs.

 

--Dave

[mdrs]

Dave,

 

I think I'd have to hire Atlas Van Lines to bring the Leslie to gigs!!

[Steve Nathan]

Hey I came back to see what the response was and noticed in my post where ZI had said

I have a couple of 122s (one is a modded 147)

. Just to clear that up, I have not hot rodded anything. I did have my 147 amp converted to be the same as a 122 amp. Once on a session, my 122 went down and I realized if I'd had another 122, I could just swap the amps until the first was fixed, so I went ahead and made both amps the same.

[mdrs]

Hey Rico,

 

Are you the purity police, or what? Try some more cheer in your heart, man. I'm simply trying to find out how Clapton, Van H, etc. are able to get "that tone" out of their guitar played thru a Leslie. I don't even know that any modifiction is necessary. It may be that I just need to mic the Leslie, and play it thru a PA. The point here is that I do not know. That's why I started this thread.

[mdrs]

The funny thing here is that I've been playing and collecting guitars and amps for a long time. I'm talking over 40 years. And, I've only ever modified a Mexican Strat, by putting some WCR replacement pick ups on it!!! I am an absolute fanatic about caring for and preserving my guitars and amps. So, some of the "sentiment" I seem to have attracted is really quite ironic!!

 

Oh, and Dave....when I brought my Leslie home, it took two guys and myself to carry it down a flight of stairs, and get it into my pick up. I did manage to get it into my basement, where I suspect it will stay for the indefinate future!!

[Ricochet]

Purity police? No, but it breaks my heart to see a classic bit of gear ruined. Wish I had one myself. I'd take good care of it.

 

Yeah, I know, "It's mine, and what I do with it's my business."

[B3Nut]

FWIW Leslie speakers are still in production, they have the 122A, 122XB (for 11-pin digital organs) and the 147A in the tube line, and the 771 (11-pin, solid-state) for single-channel solid state. They also make multichannel Leslies for later digital organs. They're produced by Hammond-Suzuki. They aren't quite as warm as the old ones due to the veneered MDF cabinets instead of the old veneered plywood cabs, and they use a different motor control scheme, but they still sound great. They aren't cheap, however.

 

I'd keep the 145 stock. If it's not loud enough with the preamp pedal driving it, something is broken. It won't get Marshall-stack loud but a 145 going full steam will part your hair, and I don't mean maybe.

 

Todd in Beerbratistan

[PBBPaul]

Originally posted by B3Nut:

a 145 going full steam will part your hair, and I don't mean maybe.

 

Todd in Beerbratistan

I'll second that. Our keys player uses one and I hold him fully responsible for my bald spot.

[mdrs]

Hey Todd, Thanks for the info!!

 

I've managed to get to 50 without developing any bald spots. But, from what I've heard listening to Clapton play thru his Leslie, I'm willing to risk a bit of hair loss!!

 

Sounds like I need to take my Leslie back to my amp tech buddy and have him check it out.

 

Thanks man!

 

Don

[Guitar Geezer]

BTW, on the Cream Reunion DVD, you can see the Leslie sitting back there next to that line of Fender Bassmen

 

 

TOOOOOOO COOOOOOOL