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Composing for Other Instruments


Rhino Madness

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Following a bit on yZes recent post on pursuing more melodic content in ones playing, I would say that writing in an unfamiliar musical context (different style, different intended instrument, writing on a different instrument, etc.) can definitely favor different musical ideas (not necessarily more melodic but different and fresh).

 

I recently wrote a piece for guitar, cello and 2 violins ( Mothers.wma (3.3 MB) ). And I wrote the string parts on the keyboard, which is also not a comfortable instrument for me. And what came out is still me but it is also, well, different (Im sure there would have been more notes if I had written it on electric guitar :) ). And Im sure far from my metal days with this one.

 

I know some of you have reached a competent level on multiple instruments (I havent).

 

How about some of your stories about coming up with fresh ideas because of a different musical instrument or context?

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Playing on piano changes how I sound since I can't yet transcribe what I play on guitar to piano. Since I'm coming into the music theory game a bit later my playing is more geometric than strictly music-based so far.

 

And, when I compose/write music without being able to play the music on any instrument (I use a MIDI notation software to hear a bit of what I'm doing) the sound is much more different since it's purely based on more musical concepts than stream-of-thought improvisation and involves more harmonic elements.

 

I liked that Mothers piece by the way :)

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Thanks Starcaster.

 

While I would know enough to correlate the notes on the guitar to the notes on the piano, it would require quite a bit of work on my part, it's definitely not instinctive. It is one of my numerous goals to learn how to play the keyboard better and recognize the notes right away but that's still just a project, not a reality, so I just composed using my ears. Not being able to rely on any finger pattern or known scale pattern was a lot of fun (a challenge, sure, but not as scary as I would have thought).

 

So, if I understood properly, you sometime compose directly to music notation, without playing any instrument? That's really cool, the way classical composers used to do it (Beethoven even kept on composing when he was deaf). I can sight read and sing simple partitions so I should give that a try, too, sometime. Thanks again.

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I used to do a little writing at the piano, which does lend itself to different chord voicings than guitar, but to really break out after I have a basic idea of chord progression and melody, I'll write without any instrument at all and then learn the part.

 

I often re-arrange jazz standards and other material for my own amusement and education. It's easy to take a basic lead sheet and flesh it out to a full score for whatever ensemble of instruments I want. Somehow, it's harder to make that leap with my own stuff. Even if I reduce it to a lead sheet, I get hung up on particular voicings on guitar or whatever. Sometimes it helps to put things aside for awhile and "unlearn" the guitar-centric things so I can come in with fresh ears and a score pad to build out the tune.

 

Of course knowing the range and idiosyncracies of the instruments makes that easier.

 

Gary Garritan (of Garritan Personal Orchestra sound sample instrument) has an online lesson forum of Rimsky-Korsakov\'s "Priniciples of Orchestration" up and running. Go learn something :thu:

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Originally posted by A String:

I love the song! Very nicely done! Great arrangement on the strings too. Sounds like Something you'd see in a movie...Could be a new career for you?

Thanks for the kind words Craig. This is the first time that I stray from the typical rock band instrumentation and I admit to be genuinely surprised at the result and also at how it came out (writing on the keyboard).

 

As we all know, creating is always exhilarating and this time, the process itself made it even more so than usual.

 

New career? Well, that's very flattering for sure :o and I wouldn't close the door on that! Thanks!

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Originally posted by Billster:

I used to do a little writing at the piano, which does lend itself to different chord voicings than guitar, but to really break out after I have a basic idea of chord progression and melody, I'll write without any instrument at all and then learn the part.

 

I often re-arrange jazz standards and other material for my own amusement and education. It's easy to take a basic lead sheet and flesh it out to a full score for whatever ensemble of instruments I want. Somehow, it's harder to make that leap with my own stuff. Even if I reduce it to a lead sheet, I get hung up on particular voicings on guitar or whatever. Sometimes it helps to put things aside for awhile and "unlearn" the guitar-centric things so I can come in with fresh ears and a score pad to build out the tune.

 

Of course knowing the range and idiosyncracies of the instruments makes that easier.

 

Gary Garritan (of Garritan Personal Orchestra sound sample instrument) has an online lesson forum of Rimsky-Korsakov\'s "Priniciples of Orchestration" up and running. Go learn something :thu:

Ok, first Starcaster and now you Billster! Why didn't I think of writing directly to notation before :confused::D ?

 

The only times I've written in std notation were when I needed MIDI bass parts (before I had bass and keyboard available); but even then, I would write the bass parts on the guitar before transcribing them on the computer.

 

This is the first time that I actually feel compelled to try and actually write directly to std notation without any instrument! (Thanks for that :thu: ).

 

Sure, I came up with snippets of melody in my head before, but then I would find the notes on the guitar and it would become guitar-centric from then on.

 

I did check the range of the various string instruments before writing my little piece here but that's as far as I went. Thanks for the Garritan link, that sounds great!

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Originally posted by Pappy P:

Three or four times, I've created a MIDI arrangement then recorded it with guitars leaving in some of the piano or organ samples.

 

The compositions definately have thier own uniqueness as compared to songs I've written strickly for guitars.

Yeah, my idea was to write on the guitar for a different instrument but writing on a different instrument for the guitar sounds like a really cool thing to do, too! (And I ended up writing on a different instrument for yet a different instrument, is that statement confusing enough or what? :) )

 

There are so many different permutations that will leave us out of our comfort zone and bring something new to the table.

 

Lots of ideas, thanks!

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Well, thanks guys, I'm gonna blush here :o !

 

I don't have anything else with string arrangements at the moment. It's the first time I do something like that but it probably won't be the last.

 

As for downloads, on a PC you can right-click the link and select Save As. I'm sure there exists something similar on the Mac. Feel free to do so (my treat, I love you guys).

 

As for the length, I originally recorded the guitar part as a standalone. With just guitar, it seemed the perfect length to stay on theme and not be too repetitive. But I've wanted for the longest time to dabble with strings and this piece seemed to beg for that, too. With the added strings, it's true that it seems to be over and out almost right from the start (but I'd rather have it that way than to extend my welcome :) ).

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Originally posted by Rhino Madness:

While I would know enough to correlate the notes on the guitar to the notes on the piano, it would require quite a bit of work on my part, it's definitely not instinctive. It is one of my numerous goals to learn how to play the keyboard better and recognize the notes right away but that's still just a project, not a reality, so I just composed using my ears. Not being able to rely on any finger pattern or known scale pattern was a lot of fun (a challenge, sure, but not as scary as I would have thought).

First off, I didn't yet get a chance to listen to your piece. Still, congrats on using using the tools at your disposal to create the sound you were after. :thu:

 

If you're having a hard time correlating notes on the guitar to the piano, you don't know very well the note names on guitar, piano, or both. I'm not trying to be insulting, just making an observation. Certainly it is possible to make music without knowing the names of the notes being played; a lot of gospel choirs learn everything strictly by ear.

 

On guitar (and bass, for that matter) it's very easy to learn, say, a blues scale pattern, and then just move that baby up and down the neck to transpose to whatever root we want to play. We don't need to know what the b5th is in A, we just jump over to the 5th fret on the top E string to grab an A root, then plunk down a middle finger on the next string down. (So, 6th fret on the A string, which is an Eb.)

 

There are patterns on keyboard, too, but they're a little different. For example, playing any two adjacent white keys will give you either a whole step interval or a half step interval, depending on which two keys you're playing. The patterns to be learned, then, depend on the key signature you're playing in. (In other words, a Bb blues scale will look quite a bit different than a the same scale in C.)

 

I'm a bit of a multi-instrumentalist myself. It's taken me a while to come to grips with how I think of music away from any instrument. The two key ingredients are ear and theory. Once you know what you want to play, it's just a matter of figuring out the interface on the instrument before you.

 

For example, either you decide you want to play a dominant 7th chord or maybe you're playing a major and you hear another note you want to add (and it turns out to be the 7th). If you're playing a barre chord on guitar off the E string, you can just lift your pinkie, right? We're so familiar with the guitar interface that this almost requires no thought. It just takes us longer on the keyboard because we're not as familiar with it.

 

Don't worry about it too much, just have fun with it. Maybe some time down the road you'll focus on your "learning the keyboard better" project and maybe some of what I just said will make some sense. As much as we musicians fuss about the "proper" way to approach music, it's more about the "proof in the pudding" end result, IMO.

 

Now, if you had a free violin at your disposal, would you have tried to learn that interface instead of the keyboard? (It could be an electric violin that you could plug into your recorder just like you do your guitar.) Why or why not? (This is similar to a question I face.)

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Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

(...) Maybe some time down the road you'll focus on your "learning the keyboard better" project and maybe some of what I just said will make some sense. As much as we musicians fuss about the "proper" way to approach music, it's more about the "proof in the pudding" end result, IMO.

 

Now, if you had a free violin at your disposal, would you have tried to learn that interface instead of the keyboard? (It could be an electric violin that you could plug into your recorder just like you do your guitar.) Why or why not? (This is similar to a question I face.)

It all makes sense already :) . You know how beginners on the guitar can tell you all the notes on the fretboard by going all the way back to the open string and coming back up fret by fret while mentally thinking of the notes at each step? That would be a good analogy of my current keyboard knowledge. I kind of know what I need to know, I just need more practice with it so it can become second nature (like on the guitar). And of course the musical theory can be applied to any instrument, only it takes more work for me on the keyboard at this point.

 

As far as learning on the actual violin and/or cello, I'd love to but I know it would realistically take many years before I could play and record it in an acceptable way (and there's nothing wrong with that either but I chose to concentrate elsewhere). I find it easier to get "instant gratification" from the keyboard where it's possible to get something out of it without spending years of practice. Time is always an issue.

 

Thanks, I appreciate your comments.

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Originally posted by scatterbrain:

what a cool song rinho,you should try some percussion in with it.nice one bro :cry::thu:

Thanks!

 

Percussion... mmh... more cowbell maybe? ;):D

 

I guess I could add some accents with percussion but I'm afraid it would loose some of its intimacy.

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I agree about the writing for other instruments being really good and mind-expanding. Ultimately you start creating your own palette. That is why orchestration books are so useful (even more so than arranging books I think). Counterpoint is also seriously worth studying from as many angles sources as possible.

 

Rimsky-Korsakov's book is great because he really talks about the sounds and the effects he gets and draws from his own stuff which clearly shows what a master he was at ochestrating/arranging. I don't have it in front of me but if I remember correctly the stuff on voices is really insightful. In fact I'd call his book really insightful.

 

But for the nuts and bolts of instrument ranges and playable/unplayable I like Technique of Orchestration by Kennan and Grantham. That is really influenced by that book being the first one that I bought on the subject, followed by the Cecil Forsyth book which for me really conveyed the personalities or idiosyncracies of the instruments. I didn't really get anything out of the Berlioz book, but then I had already read the others at that point.

 

The Kennan book now comes with a CD. A lot of arranging books (like the Sebasky book) come with CD's but an Orchestration book is worth doing before an arranging book.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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Thanks for the extra resources musicalhair!

 

The link that Billster provided above goes through the Principles of Orchestration by Rimsky-Korsakov and adds audio examples along the way. It definitely looks now like that would be a great place to get started.

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Originally posted by Big Red 67:

I can't save it by any means that I can figure on my Mac.

I'm not a Mac person but try these steps:

 

Macintosh

 

1. Locate the link for the file you want to download.

2. Move the cursor so that it is over the link.

3. Click the mouse button and hold.

4. In the mini-menu that pops up, select "Save this Link as..."

5. In the box that pops up, select the location where you want to save the file.

 

If this doesn't work, I'll email you the file tomorrow.

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Originally posted by Rhino Madness:

I'm not a Mac person but try these steps:

That works, Rhino. :thu:

 

Holding the control key down while clicking on the link also brings up that popup menu. (The control-click is roughly the equivalent of the right mouse button in Windows.)

 

Taking a quick listen now myself ...

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Nice job!

 

I agree: percussion isn't necessary. It has a nice "string quartet" feel to it. Maybe some minimal hand drums, like bongos or congas. I like to sneak in some triangle, too, but you have to be careful not to overdo it. A little guiro (the fish with grooves) or claves might fit, too.

 

When the strings entered, just the texture of violin against guitar reminded me of a local group, Tone and Niche . They have a lighter, pop feel, though.

 

I know it's not the same, but have you tried ebow or an effects unit like the BOSS GT-8?

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WOW! Thats really good Rhino. I like how you let the dynamics rise and fall throughout the piece. Made me anticipate the next passage even more. Very good piece!

Avoid playing the amplifier at a volume setting high enough to produce a distorted sound through the speaker-Fender Guitar Course-1966

 

 

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Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

(...) When the strings entered, just the texture of violin against guitar reminded me of a local group, Tone and Niche . They have a lighter, pop feel, though.

 

I know it's not the same, but have you tried ebow or an effects unit like the BOSS GT-8?

I listened to a few Tone and Niche songs from their web site: I really like the way they use all these instruments to create different textures. It's a nice change from the more typical band formats.

 

I'm not familiar with the GT-8 but have been intrigued by the e-bow for quite some time; I just can't seem to get myself to spring for one :( . A friend just told me he got one so I'll try and borrow it one of these days and see if I can get converted...

 

One thing I like to do on electric is to fade in the notes by picking with the volume rolled off and bring in the sound with my pinky wrapped around the volume knob: it gives an attack somewhat similar to that of the violin.

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Thanks for the good words Greg and Gruupi!

 

One thing I really envy the violin family from a guitar player's point of view is its ability to vary the volume up and down at will during infinite sustain.

 

The note can peak early, lower its volume and then dramatically rise again; or it can peak anywhere in the middle of its sustain. When you add that capability to the independant control of the intensity of the vibrato, the emotional expressiveness is amazing.

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I also like the moment the strings enter. Another thing I like is towards the way you add a higher timbre around th 2:11 point. I don't know if you changed synth patches or something at that point for the ending or what cauzed what I'm hearing there but I liked it.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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