OT: If you see me getting mighty, if you see me getting high: KNOCK ME DOWN

[fantasticsound]

First off, I have been a Dixie Chicks fan their entire career.

 

In 1997 or '98 I worked CRS (Country Radio Seminar), an industry convention with plenty of live performances. I had the wonderfully easy job of cable paging for a handheld cameraman just offstage.

 

The final performance was the New Faces show. Among the performers that year were Lila McCann, Sherie Austin, The Ranch (Keith Urban's previous band) and The Dixie Chicks.

 

When I read the names prior to the performance I thought, "How much dumber can you get than the 'Dixie Chicks'?? Must be the country, girl-group version of N'Sync, Backstreet Boys, Spice Girls, etc." I couldn't have been more wrong. Their performance was wonderful. I couldn't tell you what song they played, but it was obvious they possessed the goods to sing and play and the charisma necessary to be great entertainers.

 

The first three albums were all strong, with catchy, melodic hooks on more tracks than they had hits. They did raise some hackles with the video for Goodbye Earl, depicting them murdering an abusive SOB, played hilariously by Dennis Franz of NYPD Blue.

 

For the most part they made excellent music. They wrote a good portion of their songs on their last album, Home, but gleaned some amazing tunes from great songwriters in and out of Nashville. (Radney Foster and Gary Nicholson among them.) The songs written by the Chicks are as strong as those bought and paid for from others. The album hasn't a weak spot anywhere.

 

And the decidedly apolitical Vietnam War song, Travelin' Soldier could've been the anthem in support of the troops, regardless of their stance on the war itself. As we approached 1,000 dead, it could have had a huge impact against the continued deaths of servicemen and women. Without saying a directly insulting word the Chicks could've spoken volumes to the entire country with that song. Instead, Natalie opened her mouth and instantly insulted half the country who disagreed with her.

 

Ironic that opponents to the war in Iraq should be gaining strength and the Dixie Chicks are still held in such contempt by so many. I have no problem with Natalie Maines' opinion of the war. But I do object to her "screw everyone" attitude.

 

My wife and I bought the new album. I've listened to half of it and, while it is palatable enough, no song has come close to jumping out as strong the way every song on Home did.

 

I wish them well, and I'm proud of them for taking a stand they believe in, but I really think they do a poor job of representing that philosophy. A bit of tact to go with that passion would serve them well.

[Big Red 67]

I like the music. Don't care for the way they-she? handles the message. It turned me off, even if I agree, it turned me off.

[fantasticsound]

One other comment..

 

It was widely reported several months after the hoopla died down a bit that Maines said, "We are leaving country music."

 

That was a big kick in pants for country fans who did support the Chicks. Now they say they never left country. When I read that second statement I felt they lost all the integrity they claim to be showing by sticking to their guns.

[Guitarzan]

if i was one of the Dixie Chicks and had all that crap happen to me i would have acted alot worse.

if we all were to "pay" for our comments i shudder to think what would happen.

i have heard more idiotic comments and blatant lies from world leaders and apparently none of them have to "pay" for them.

this makes me wonder about the general population.

we are all human beings and not perfect.

what pisses me off is the low life media feeding this to the public. and of course all those who have such a pathetic life that they need to dwell on it.

[Gifthorse]

I forgot the scandal back in 2003. I mean I don't remember exactly what they did, and now it doesn't really matter to me.

 

I love them though. Most country stuff blows. They are all super talented musicians who can sing and play country like badasses. Thats all I care about. Forgive and forget.

 

Political parties and what they stand for is a bunch of BS in my opinion. Just a big illusion to keep us distracted from the big money controlling it all.

[Guitarzan]

you rock man.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

...Forgive and forget...

Except they don't forgive or forget, but they're asking everyone else to.

 

Like I said, I bought the album. I'm willing to look past their inability to keep the foot-in-mouth disease in check. I hadn't even heard the album was released before hearing how political they made it. So much for letting the music do the talking.

[Guitarzan]

What Natalie said originally wasn't that bad.

the response was insane.

if the chicks are pissed i understand.

if anything it was a good decoy for awhile to take the heat off of someone.

[skipclone 1]

Maybe they should run for office, where people don`t expect so much...

[A String]

Come on now, I know you guys can use more restraint then that.

 

This is a very iffy thread at best. I understand that it's a topic that you want to discuss and one which is right on the boarder of being political, so let's try to keep it on the music side rather then the politics side huh?

[Guitarzan]

sorry

musically the Dixie Chicks rock imho

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Personally, I think that musicians (and actors) should avoid discussing political or religous views...as should guitar related forums.

[Guitarzan]

i must say i love the new avatar Sasq.

[A String]

The question we should be asking here, is not if there messages are right or wrong, but if it's ok to voice your opinions this way.

 

Personally, I think it's a style of music. There is a lot of music that covers religion (Christian Rock and Gospel etc.) and politics (Think CSNY and Bruce Cockburn.)

 

Music is an art form and is therefore about expressing yourself.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by A String:

The question we should be asking here, is not if there messages are right or wrong, but if it's ok to voice your opinions this way.

 

Personally, I think it's a style of music. There is a lot of music that covers religion (Christian Rock and Gospel etc.) and politics (Think CSNY and Bruce Cockburn.)

 

Music is an art form and is therefore about expressing yourself.

I agree 100% with that. Expressing feelings, emotions, and viewpoints is the crux of music or any sort of art form. That is perfectly fine and the way the world was meant to be. That way, if I sympathize with (or hold), for instance, left-wing political views, then I can choose to buy the albums, go to the concerts, watch the movies, read the books, etc. If my orientation is to the right, I simply don't indulge in any of those things. A perfect sort of freedom of choice.

 

Most people can overlook the political or religous leanings of the art and just enjoy it for the art. I can for the most part...the only people I have problems with and refuse to watch or listen to at all are Jane Fonda and Ed Asner, because of a 35 year old betrayal that I can't forgive....but that's a whole 'nuther discussion that doesn't need to happen in here.

 

Where these people go astray is when they use (abuse) their position...for instance when they are at press conferences to discuss their albums and use that opportunity to make inflamatory and disparaging remarks or to further a political agenda (attempting to force their views down my throat)....IMHO, if that destroys their careers, then they deserve that. They would have been infinitely better off to simply allow people to enjoy the art for the art's sake and take the political message if they chose to.

 

Sometimes these people just don't know when to shut their mouths. That doesn't mean they aren't fine musicians....but if you piss people off enough politically or with religion, they will no longer care whether you can play or sing.

 

By the same token, people in here have quite varied and very passionate personal beliefs and views on these subjects..often completely opposite. Because of the deep emotional aspects of these subjects, people will become angry when someone else is perceived as dismissing, putting down, or criticizing their views or issues or personalities that they hold as important. That will put members at odds with each other, with no good reason. Our religious and political views have absolutely nothing at all to do with guitars and guitar playing, and I would much rather remain friends with everyone in this forum.

[Corner Pocket]

Originally posted by A String:

Ok guys, Religion and Politics in the same thread? Let's try to steer this in the right direction so I don't have to close it.

and later in the same thread you said this:

 

"The question we should be asking here, is not if there messages are right or wrong, but if it's ok to voice your opinions this way.

 

Personally, I think it's a style of music. There is a lot of music that covers religion (Christian Rock and Gospel etc.) and politics (Think CSNY and Bruce Cockburn.)

 

Music is an art form and is therefore about expressing yourself."

 

So which is it? Is it about expressing oneself, or is it about exressing yourself as long as religion and politics are not involved?

 

Since A String and Bluesape have become mods, there have been a lot more thread closings and threats of thread closings. That is either because they are monitoring more closely than Myles and others, or because they have the "gift" of knowing what is appropriate for this forum.

 

NOTHING in this Dixie Chicks thread has gotten personal between forum members. Some posts have been less than civil towards TDC, but that's OK.

 

If music is truly an art devoted to expressing oneself, then discussing that music, and the tools used to create it must be given the same latitude that the music itself is given.

 

Now, what kind of strings do you thinkg The Dixe Chicks use on their banjo's?

[A String]

Originally posted by rockincyanblues:

Originally posted by A String:

Ok guys, Religion and Politics in the same thread? Let's try to steer this in the right direction so I don't have to close it.

and later in the same thread you said this:

 

"The question we should be asking here, is not if there messages are right or wrong, but if it's ok to voice your opinions this way.

 

Personally, I think it's a style of music. There is a lot of music that covers religion (Christian Rock and Gospel etc.) and politics (Think CSNY and Bruce Cockburn.)

 

Music is an art form and is therefore about expressing yourself."

 

So which is it? Is it about expressing oneself, or is it about exressing yourself as long as religion and politics are not involved?

 

Since A String and Bluesape have become mods, there have been a lot more thread closings and threats of thread closings. That is either because they are monitoring more closely than Myles and others, or because they have the "gift" of knowing what is appropriate for this forum.

 

NOTHING in this Dixie Chicks thread has gotten personal between forum members. Some posts have been less than civil towards TDC, but that's OK.

 

If music is truly an art devoted to expressing oneself, then discussing that music, and the tools used to create it must be given the same latitude that the music itself is given.

 

Now, what kind of strings do you thinkg The Dixe Chicks use on their banjo's?

There are rules here that were previously, not strictly enforced. The politics were moved to another area in the forum and that seemed to give people a place to vent.

 

Now that the political forum is gone, it is creeping back in here. Reif and I have been asked to discourage any and all religious and political discussions.

 

This thread has some very valid, non-political, points that can be made. To discuss a person's right to sing about politics is fine, as long as you are not discussing the actual politics involved and whether or not you agree with the politics.

 

Sas hit the nail on the head when he said:

"people in here have quite varied and very passionate personal beliefs and views on these subjects..often completely opposite. Because of the deep emotional aspects of these subjects, people will become angry when someone else is perceived as dismissing, putting down, or criticizing their views or issues or personalities that they hold as important. That will put members at odds with each other, with no good reason. Our religious and political views have absolutely nothing at all to do with guitars and guitar playing, and I would much rather remain friends with everyone in this forum."

 

I hope you understand that we are not trying to run a censored forum here, we are just trying to keep all of our friends as friends.

 

If you do have further issues, please feel free to PM me and I'd be happy to discuss your concerns.

[Pappy P]

How many Banjos do the Dixie Chicks have. I thought Marty was the solo banjo, but maybe she is the lead Banjo.

 

Did they create the Electric Banjo for her. I don't remember ever seeing one before she played one.

[Corner Pocket]

Originally posted by A String:

There are rules here that were previously, not strictly enforced. The politics were moved to another area in the forum and that seemed to give people a place to vent.

 

Now that the political forum is gone, it is creeping back in here. Reif and I have been asked to discourage any and all religious and political discussions.

 

This thread has some very valid, non-political, points that can be made. To discuss a person's right to sing about politics is fine, as long as you are not discussing the actual politics involved and whether or not you agree with the politics.

 

Sas hit the nail on the head when he said:

"people in here have quite varied and very passionate personal beliefs and views on these subjects..often completely opposite. Because of the deep emotional aspects of these subjects, people will become angry when someone else is perceived as dismissing, putting down, or criticizing their views or issues or personalities that they hold as important. That will put members at odds with each other, with no good reason. Our religious and political views have absolutely nothing at all to do with guitars and guitar playing, and I would much rather remain friends with everyone in this forum."

 

I hope you understand that we are not trying to run a censored forum here, we are just trying to keep all of our friends as friends.

 

If you do have further issues, please feel free to PM me and I'd be happy to discuss your concerns.

I noticed the rules sticky after I posted. It's new today. Sorry.

 

There are musical discussions.

 

There are political/religious discussions.

 

There are discussions about political/religious music, and the politics/religion of music.

 

Political/religious discussions probably don't belong here. But as politics/religion relate to the art and presentation of music, they absolutely do. Yes this is a Guitar forum, but in a broader perspective it is a music forum, and music is a big word and a bigger world. I see little advantage to setting up rigid walls to this virtual room.

 

As long as a recipe thread is important enough to be made sticky, then I see nothing wrong with this thread, or the long departed "Drugs in music thread", (I still think recreational drug users are taking an unneccessary risk).

 

I will now post a new topic or two.

[A String]

Originally posted by rockincyanblues:

As long as a recipe thread is important enough to be made sticky, then I see nothing wrong with this thread, or the long departed "Drugs in music thread", (I still think recreational drug users are taking an unneccessary risk).

The recipe thread will be coming down soon.

 

As I mentioned, there is nothing wrong with the thread currently and that is why I didn't close it. There were a few direct shots made so I felt the need to say something just to help keep the edge off.

 

This isn't about OT threads, it's about discussing political views. If a thread looks like it's heading that way, I mention it. If it swings that way, I discourage it. If it continues, I am forced to shut it down.

 

Really, it's not like I'm being a "Quick Draw" here, I let the Neil Young thread run for many, many pages before shutting it down. This thread is still up and running (Although, as I mentioned, I don't think any lines have been crossed yet).

 

Shutting down a page is an absolute last resort. Not an easy out.

[Shoes]

Originally posted by Pappy P:

I can blow off most the crap in that article and roll my eyes.

 

But how can you donate money with strings attached and wonder why they wouldn't want the money?

Why should domestic aid be any different than what the government does with your hard earned tax dollars when it hands out foreign aid?

 

It's pure partisian politics and played for a news system blinded by self interest rather than ethics.

 

This morning I was listening to an American woman journalist who's 80+ years old still active and apparently blackballed by the Bush administration for continuing to ask the same questions about legitimate reasons for current military actions. (questions that go unanswered as we all know)...

She explained how the control of government over the media plays the populous to a tune that's just as effective and manipulative as it was during the height of the cold war.

A steady diet of selective truths strainded through a net teaming with death, lies and corporate persuasion and never feeling an obligation to the general public who put them in office.

 

You are in fact supporting every single thing that was explained about the manipulation and its victoms (the American public) and how this places corporate control clearly in the front of the car while everyone else is in the back.

 

You're not asking a question you are decidedly making a thin statement regarding the "Chicks" as a springboard for a political commentary.

 

Soon enough the public will be in the trunk and you really won't be able to distinguish yourselves from slaves.

 

 

I always liked how Kevin Neelon opened with "... and now the fake news"!

 

Who knew it would become the standard across America.

 

Hopefully there's no confusion as to where I'm coming from.

Kill this thread and everything like it before our forum starts to look like another media outlet for political crap.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Pappy P:

How many Banjos do the Dixie Chicks have. I thought Marty was the solo banjo, but maybe she is the lead Banjo.

 

Did they create the Electric Banjo for her. I don't remember ever seeing one before she played one.

Electric banjos have been around a lot longer than Marty has.

 

This was far from the beginning, but I worked with several players 11 years ago playing electric banjos on gigs. I don't like 'em, though. IMO, they tend to reinforce the idea that a banjo is a "plinky" sounding instrument with no tone. Of course, even with quality acoustic banjos many sound engineers don't reinforce the beauty in the instruments timbre. But I digress...

 

After giving the new album a second, more attentive listen, I like all the songs I've heard. I still think it's much weaker than Home, but it's still good.

 

Oddly enough, the only song that approaches a breakout is Not Ready To Make Nice, which also doesn't seem nearly as caustic in describing the events of the past few years as the Chicks, the media and interviewed radio program directors would have us believe.

 

I still have to audition So Hard, about infertility. My wife wasn't impressed. I'm holding my hopes up that it's better than she suggested, though.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Guitars are like shoes. But louder.:

Originally posted by Pappy P:

I can blow off most the crap in that article and roll my eyes.

 

But how can you donate money with strings attached and wonder why they wouldn't want the money?

Why should domestic aid be any different than what the government does with your hard earned tax dollars when it hands out foreign aid?

 

It's pure partisian politics and played for a news system blinded by self interest rather than ethics...

Whoa! First of all, read A-string's comments on political postings. All due respect, Guitars are like shoes. But louder, your post was way over the line.

 

But more to the point, the actions of the Red Cross were not at all political. They were, in fact, continuing their policy of being apolitical, neutral. They are not in any way connected with the government, so please do not make comments that suggest they are.

 

I agree that our government makes aid decisions based on politics and that is sad. But the Red Cross' decision was not. If the Chicks cared that much about helping through the Red Cross then they could've donated anonymously. That's their or their management's decision.

[Guitar55]

Dear moderators:

 

This thread is about music as a vehicle for the promotion of political views. It is not a political debate. I suggest that you please maintain some restraint and don't theaten to close a thread where there has been no personal attacks at all. No need to invoke the Forum's version of the Patriot Act. :-)

 

Thanks,

Dennis

[Guitar55]

I've seen some comments that musicians add nothing to society and others that say musicians should steer away from politics. So which is it?

 

If YOU held some strong beliefs and had millions of people lstening, what would YOU do?

[Shoes]

I'll apologize for not making clear my dislike of how money is used to grease the trigger finger or the soup ladle.

 

The Chicks making public the specifics regarding a donation is exactly like the government aid.... it's opposition party aid. I won't argue that they were trying to drag the Red Cross into something political. I also never said the Red Cross was political.

 

If foreign aid was made of food and education we'd spend less on bullets and body bags.

 

It's all posturing and this forum isn't a good place for any of it.

I attacked the media and my hope that this place doesn't get "used" in the same way.

 

 

If YOU held some strong beliefs and had millions of people lstening, what would YOU do?

 

...tell them the truth.

[A String]

Originally posted by Guitar55:

Dear moderators:

 

This thread is about music as a vehicle for the promotion of political views. It is not a political debate. I suggest that you please maintain some restraint and don't theaten to close a thread where there has been no personal attacks at all. No need to invoke the Forum's version of the Patriot Act. :-)

 

Thanks,

Dennis

It's not about personal attacks. Politics are not welcome on this site. Period. If you make a harsh remark about one side or the other, someone gets upset. It's better that it is not brought up at all. If this thread continues too much farther down the road in the direction it's currently headed, I will pull it. I'd rather have folks here pissed off at me then at each other.

 

Shoes, for the sake of keeping this thread going, could you restrain from posts containing political views.

[alittlebatty]

I have to say I totally agree with guitarzan on my opinion of this whole thing.

Never ceases to amaze me how often a woman of a strong mind & opinion speaks out and then is called "a fat assed bitch" or worse by some in this so called modern enlightened age.....

[Big Red 67]

I don't really care about what was said, the tone of the expression took the air out of the music for me.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Originally posted by Batgirl7:

Never ceases to amaze me how often a woman of a strong mind & opinion speaks out...

What's that got to do with the Dicksee Chicks? Ouch!...Oooh....Owww! I wuz just kiddin' Owww...stop throwing stuff at me....I wuz kiddin' I tell ya!