Silly Chord Question

[Warthog]

OK, found another one this weekend: play an E chord and then slide it up to the sventh fret (muting the low E string). I know it's an E of some kind but again, why look it up when I know one of ya'll is ready to spit out the answer?

[Corner Pocket]

It's an A add 9.

 

The low E is muted,

The A string 7 fret is an E

The D string 7 fret is an A

The G string 6 fret is a C#

The open B string is B

The open high E string is E

[fantasticsound]

Is that a second inversion, rockincyanblues? I always forget if the 3rd in the bass is the 1st inversion and the 5th in the bass the 2nd inversion or if the straight voicing (1,3,5 from bass up) is considered 1st inversion.

 

You could define it straight by playing the A on the sixth string, 5th fret, too.

[Warthog]

Originally posted by rockincyanblues:

It's an A add 9.

 

The low E is muted,

The A string 7 fret is an E

The D string 7 fret is an A

The G string 6 fret is a C#

The open B string is B

The open high E string is E

A add9? I always thought that the bass string defined the root, so it would be some version of an E chord?

 

Now, to bust out the "Music Theory Made Easy" book I just bought...

[Corner Pocket]

I think, (and my classical theory memory is poor), that......

 

root - third - fifth = root position

third - fifth - root = first inversion

fifth - root - third = second inversion.

 

IIRC, you can only talk about these inversions when dealing with triads. The guitar lends itself to some very open voicings, and it gets a bit tough to define.

 

And in the above example, the 9th degree is added, in between two chord tones... so I'm not really sure what to call it, in terms of postition or inversion.

 

When I provide lead sheets or guitar players, 9 times out of 10 I just put down the chord name, and let them find their own voicings. The 10th time I will put in a little fret board diagram with the specific voicing I want.

[fantasticsound]

No, Warthog, the spelling defines the chord. The bass note defines the inversion. (Part of the chord voicing.)

 

C major

 

G

E

C

 

C major, 1st inversion (IIRC, third in the bass)

 

C

G

E

 

C major, 2nd inversion (again, IIRC. , 5th in the bass)

 

E

C

G

 

So the chord in question is an Aadd9 because:

 

• The spelling is A C# E (G) B (although the seventh is not present.
  
• Someone here mentioned the coincidence of the second scale tone and third, together (B, C# in this case) indicates a ninth as opposed to a sus2. I don't know if that's the defining characteristic, but certainly a ninth seems logical.
  
• This is a 2nd inversion because the 5th is in the bass.
  

[Corner Pocket]

Originally posted by Warthog:

I always thought that the bass string defined the root, so it would be some version of an E chord?

Not necessarily. The bass note is NOT always the root note, although frequently it is. Any chord tone is a valid bass note, as are any passing notes. i.e.:

 

Am - Am/G - Am/F# - Am/F - Am/E

 

The chord is still Am, but the bass note changes.

 

The reason your chord won't be heard as a form of an E chord is that there is no third for it to be heard as an E chord. There is neither a G or a G# in the voicing. The notes for an A major triad, (A, C# and E) are all there, as well as the 9th scale degree, (B), making the chord an A add 9

 

The argument could be made for an E6sus4 chord, if you see/hear the voicing as

E - A - B - C#,

but that will only make sense if the next chord resolves to an E6, (E - G# - B - C#).

 

Context matters when trying to name a chord. Especially when trying to determine if a chord is suspended, or not.

[Chad Thorne]

My brain hurts.

[Warthog]

You guys rule...thanks for the insight. Like I said, I'm still a pedestrian when it comes to guitar...

[D_dup3]

This may relieve (or not ) some of that pressure, Paddy O'F...

 

I've always preferred straightforward spellings for chords as opposed to symbols such as the triangle to which Phil referred in describing the minor chord with major seventh.

For that I'd put something like Cm maj7 or Cm7 (with a slash through the 7, a common indicator for extensions based on major 7ths rather than dominant 7ths...& which I can't figure out the HTML to portray here ).

Basically, if one spells the intervals things are much more readable, although those sort of symbols are common as well.

 

The subject of bi-tonal or stacked chords touched on earlier is interesting & very helpful in ensemble playing where full barres are often a bit cluttered when mixed with other instruments.

I've not played a full barre chord, except in solo playing context, in years.

It's also handy as a way to avoid complex fingerings.

Even 9th chords often get the shorthand version...think of the "James Brown" 9th, which gets just the top 3 strings & which, without the support of bass, etc., could be a minor chord set a 5th higher (E9 = Bm/E).

 

Taking off from Al Chuck's minor chord with major 7th (which is really still a minor chord), here's a couple kinda oddball grips that may strike someone's fancy...

 

A chord with both major & flatted 7ths:

1st string = 3rd fret

2nd string = 2nd fret

3rd string = 1st fret

4th string = 2nd fret

5th string = open

 

A particularly piquant 1/2 diminished form:

2st string = 1st fret

2nd string = 2nd fret

3rd string = 1st fret

4th string = open

 

Pretty "unpretty", eh?

Well, when you spend some time playing a mix of PFunk & TMonk, they can be handy!

 

Here's something that may be more useful for most players.

Ever get tired of the standard diminished form?

Try this:

1st string = 3rd fret

2nd string = 5th fret

3rd string = 3rd fret

4th string = 5th fret

5th string = 3rd fret

6th string = 3rd fret

That can be a full or partial barre.

[Chad Thorne]

Originally posted by d:

This may relieve (or not ) some of that pressure, Paddy O'F...

Thanks, d. In truth I understand all this stuff but hate to think about it because it's so dense. It's a hellish experience for someone with ADD...Plus, I like blues and other genres that use relatively simple harmonic schemes. They speak to my heart and from my heart more, somehow. Complex chords and harmonic schemes affect me in a more cerebral or intellectual way; plus the ambiguous, unresolved nature of a lot of the chords makes me feel depressed and adrift. Does that make sense?

[Corner Pocket]

Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:

I like blues and other genres that use relatively simple harmonic schemes.

But, the beauty comes in when you get outside of the trap of the pentatonic vortex, and begin to explore the other 7 notes available. If you know what the chord is, and what job the chord is performing, then there are some pretty defined rules for what other notes will work, and why.

 

Some players, SRV and Jimmie Vaughan among them, know this stuff almost instinctivley. The beauty of a guitar is that it is pattern based. Once you know the fingering for a G major scale starting on the 6th string, you know the fingering for any major scale, staring on the 6th string. You also know the fingering for all 7 modes of the major scale. That doesn't happen on the piano.

 

I like to think of blues as deceptively simple. In a simple C7 - F7 - G7 blues, the notes as defined by the chords are:

 

C - E - G - Bb

F - A - C - Eb

G - B - D - F

 

Put together in a scale with C as the root note, you get:

 

C - D - Eb - E - F - G - A - Bb - B - C

 

That scale shows that the #9 is a strong note to re-enforce the scale. The #9 for C7, (D#/Eb), and the #9 for G7, (A#/Bb), are already part of the the harmonic structure, so it won't hurt the ears to put 'em in melodically.

 

Dominant 7 chords are unstable by nature, as they have a tri-tone in them, so you can't destroy the harmony with any notes you play. Some notes are better choices, but all notes are valid.

 

How valid depends on the message you are trying to get across. #9 notes are "safe", because they are part of the scale. b9 notes are less safe, but can be very effective, when used with taste and discretion.

[Phil W]

Nice post rcb!

Playing a C blues scale over a C blues (which I guess everyone has done) takes you to all sorts of strange harmonic parts.

d - I take your meaning. I like to use a triangle for major sevenths just because it is one less piece of information for the brain to process as you read a chart. It's mot very intuitive and the first time I saw it (years ago) I was non-plussed.

Great chords d

[Chad Thorne]

Originally posted by rockincyanblues:

Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:

I like blues and other genres that use relatively simple harmonic schemes.

But, the beauty comes in when you get outside of the trap of the pentatonic vortex, and begin to explore the other 7 notes available. If you know what the chord is, and what job the chord is performing, then there are some pretty defined rules for what other notes will work, and why.

Well, again, it's not a trap if you enter it willingly, and can come out just as willingly. I KNOW the chords; I've studied at Berklee and New England Conservatory, and a great deal on my own. I've looked at, e.g., the Lydian Chromatic concept. This is not an intellectual shortcoming on my part, it's a decision based on what works for me emotionally, music being an emotional medium. And, again, there is not always "beauty" for me in harmonically dense music. I experience anomie, existential angst, and agita when I listen to some of it.

 

Some players, SRV and Jimmie Vaughan among them, know this stuff almost instinctivley. The beauty of a guitar is that it is pattern based. Once you know the fingering for a G major scale starting on the 6th string, you know the fingering for any major scale, staring on the 6th string. You also know the fingering for all 7 modes of the major scale. That doesn't happen on the piano.

I agree with your "beauty of the guitar" statement. I submit, though, that if you break down what SRV and JLV do it is mostly blues-scale driven. ("Lenny" comes to mind; the melody and chords are very jazzy, but when SRV solos he goes right home to the blues.) - The "beauty" of a guitar being pattern-based is also a trap, IMO; makes it way too easy to learn a scale and just go widdly-widdly on it all evening...

 

I like to think of blues as deceptively simple...

Yes. It's modal music; the complexity, the artistry come from what one can make of the relative few notes furnished by the mode. Once you start using, e.g., b9s, chromatic runs, you're veering into jazz, which is o.k. and there's room in the blues for it. My position is that it's not necessary to add those elements to make compelling music out of the blues. (In the interests of full disclosure I frequently use 6s and 9s in my blues, pushing me - if I'm not careful - into Dorian territory...)

[D_dup3]

Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:

Originally posted by d:

This may relieve (or not ) some of that pressure, Paddy O'F...

Thanks, d. In truth I understand all this stuff but hate to think about it because it's so dense...

I feel exactly the same way... which is just one of the reasons I advocate straightforward spellings.

 

Keep in mind that this stuff needn't be so "complicated" if you approach it with the idea that memorizing all the names & "rules" is secondary to just hearing the pitches & having some idea what sounds good or is effective in various contexts. I bet you have better abilities in that way than you might allow.

Everything else is just nomenclature for describing verbally or textually what's an aural art.

[Phil W]

I guess it's an oversimplification but when I first started in music I tended to think of most concepts as tension and release in lots of intersting ways. I think I need to get back to that more naive approach a little sometimes when I read my posts.

When I play live, it's much more intuitive of course but in practice, theory is useful and when posting on a board I do tend to get carried away with theory as - well you can't listen to posts I guess. Also, part of me just loves theory and analysis - my brain never hurts - but sometimes I like to just play and switch the theory parts of the brain off.

[Chad Thorne]

Originally posted by d:

Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:

Originally posted by d:

This may relieve (or not ) some of that pressure, Paddy O'F...

Thanks, d. In truth I understand all this stuff but hate to think about it because it's so dense...

I feel exactly the same way... which is just one of the reasons I advocate straightforward spellings.

 

Keep in mind that this stuff needn't be so "complicated" if you approach it with the idea that memorizing all the names & "rules" is secondary to just hearing the pitches & having some idea what sounds good or is effective in various contexts. I bet you have better abilities in that way than you might allow.

Everything else is just nomenclature for describing verbally or textually what's an aural art.

Thanks again, d! I actually have great abilities. I can blow over changes like nobody's bidness, parse "Satin Doll" all day long, and actually have some great grips for extended chords on guitar that I found without reference to a chord diagram book (I play lefty and it's just a pain to have to turn shapes around!). The problem isn't with my brain; a lot of this stuff just leaves my heart cold. (When I was a kid, way before I even played an instrument, I used to make fun of the sound of a ride cymbal in bop!)

 

Blues is really my crie de coeur.