Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 If an effects loop input on your amp needs line level signals what do you use to bring down stomp box effects to line level so you can use the effects loop input on the amp? http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 why aren't your effects line level? "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Wait! I thought Caevan said they where NOT line level???? gezz now I have to go look for the thread Bill! mayby I'm mixed up, see what happens when I work till 2:00 then try to post ..sholdn't do that! OT-- Hay I did a speech at Carnegie Mellon Univ. about a year ago on Rapid Prototyping and Rapid Tooling, are you anywhere near there?? http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesWithoutBlame Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios: why aren't your effects line level? I think the original question is a valid one. Stomp boxes aren't line level. Some of them can handly it but I have a Fender Prosonic that has an effects loop, line level (+10db) that kills my delay. It hits the ceiling and sounds terrible. In answer to the original question, yeah...you have to get ahold of something that can reduce the level, then bring it back up as much as possible back into the amp. It MIGHT work to have like a GE-7 graphic EQ, but use it to reduce signal, maybe another one or some sort of boost after the other effects to get it back up to the level expected at the power amp. I also bought (but haven't tried yet) something called a SPX-32 (I think it was called) made by Nobels, that might do the job. ==================================================== Check out my original music at http://www.soundclick.com/bands/jacker "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but not in practice." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by BluesWithoutBlame: Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios: why aren't your effects line level? I think the original question is a valid one. Stomp boxes aren't line level. Some of them can handly it but I have a Fender Prosonic that has an effects loop, line level (+10db) that kills my delay. It hits the ceiling and sounds terrible. In answer to the original question, yeah...you have to get ahold of something that can reduce the level, then bring it back up as much as possible back into the amp. It MIGHT work to have like a GE-7 graphic EQ, but use it to reduce signal, maybe another one or some sort of boost after the other effects to get it back up to the level expected at the power amp. I also bought (but haven't tried yet) something called a SPX-32 (I think it was called) made by Nobels, that might do the job. Thanks BWB, I can't seem to find the post the Caevan I thought said they might not be? I was sure I saw that? OH by the way I ordered a TASCAM CD-GT1mkII from Sweetwater yesterday based on your recommendations. I have seen them used before just never got around to buying one, so now I did, they are a great tool for sure thanks for reminding me!! http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 BWB, I can't seem to find a Google reference on a Nobles SPX-32? where did you find it, I want to read about it. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Robert Rennix Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Ebtech makes a two-channel line level converter that would probably do the trick. It's available through MF for $70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by jrob: Ebtech makes a tw-channel line level converter that would probably do the trick. It's available through MF for $70. Hay thanks! I'm going to go look now, thanks for the tip. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Well, there's a problem that I hadn't considered.... older effects are very usable in effects loops. Hell, that is what the effects loop was built for. It sure should handle the levels. But it seems that newer devices have output levels that can be all over the place. I've been finding references to +3dBm, +5, +10....that is really wrong. It is simple enough to follow unity gain for studio guys who understand the concept, but what the hell is a guitar player supposed to do? (I know, it would be just crazy talk to suggest that the output level control on any box be set anywhere under 11...) seriously, does anyone know why the gain of these newer boxes is so damned hot? Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 I was getting confused! I have never tried to use the effects loop on any amp I have ever had that had one. I thought maybe they where for rack effects that where made to go in the loop??? I just thought I might try some to see how they work, I want to run my Lexicon reverbs, I have an extra single rac space one from another PA, I thought it would be ok to try that?? http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesWithoutBlame Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by ellwood: BWB, I can't seem to find a Google reference on a Nobles SPX-32? where did you find it, I want to read about it. Sorry...I was "off by one", I just went downstairs and looked at mine and it is an SPX-31, Nobels. I bought it from a german firm, but I just tried the link and the page is not there anymore. They give reasons "either we don't still carry it on our online because not available anymore OR sold out" but the link was: http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_9999_prod.html And you could send them an email and ask them. There are very few that I could find of this kind of thing...it is actually a double effects looper with control for everything, input, send to loop1, send to loop2, return from each and output. I think it even mixes (parallel) turning a serial loop effectively into a parallel (cool eh?). I had a hard time finding mine, but look for anyone carrying Nobels, maybe even Ebay or something? It's MUCH smaller than it looks in all pictures I saw of it. It takes 12vdc. Good luck! And you really are going to enjoy the GT-1 I hope! I have the older model, so hopefully they upgraded some of the effects, though they are useable they weren't the best, but they do the job...mosly I just want to hear myself, maybe with a little OD or something. When you practice with it, try to "nail the beat" meaning...time it so you don't even hear the guitar part you are learning. I had to learn that, not to lag behind using the original for hints about what's next, etc. Good luck! ==================================================== Check out my original music at http://www.soundclick.com/bands/jacker "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but not in practice." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Most pedal effects units are instrument level, which is lower than line-level, right? If a pedal seems to have too hot of an output, chances are it is one like an overdrive or distortion that has a volume/output control on it than can be set to taste. Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesWithoutBlame Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios: Well, there's a problem that I hadn't considered.... older effects are very usable in effects loops. Hell, that is what the effects loop was built for. It sure should handle the levels. But it seems that newer devices have output levels that can be all over the place. I've been finding references to +3dBm, +5, +10....that is really wrong. It is simple enough to follow unity gain for studio guys who understand the concept, but what the hell is a guitar player supposed to do? (I know, it would be just crazy talk to suggest that the output level control on any box be set anywhere under 11...) seriously, does anyone know why the gain of these newer boxes is so damned hot? Bill Yeah...not sure. I like effects loops for delay, reverb. I have a Carvin MTS3212, Peavey Clasic 30, Fender Hot Rod DeVille and they all have effects loops that work just great. The Prosonic, was designed by a guy named Zinky and he went on to his own amp company. I sent email asking him about how to handle the +10 db loop, he wouldn't help or point me towards any solution. It is a known thing about the Prosonic (well..I didn't know til I bought it) and the idea was for rack effects. Have read on a Fender site that he apparently has said to fix it the real solution would be complicated, using a transoformer,etc. Just amazed that it wasn't even switchable though...when I bought the amp and was thinking of returning it, the music store sent me a -6db cable (just a cable with resistor in line) but that doesn't solve it, you end up losing too much volume then, and adjust the volume to get back up and back at too high levels. And when the signal hits 0db on the delay, it sounds terrible. It's really unusable. I haven't yet tried the SPX I bought for it, because I've been using my other amps and am not in that big a hurry with it. ==================================================== Check out my original music at http://www.soundclick.com/bands/jacker "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but not in practice." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesWithoutBlame Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by Caevan_O'Shite: Most pedal effects units are instrument level, which is lower than line-level, right? If a pedal seems to have too hot of an output, chances are it is one like an overdrive or distortion that has a volume/output control on it than can be set to taste. Yes... It think instrument level is usually either -10db or -20db even. Somewhere in there. +10db is HUGE...for pedals made for guitars. ==================================================== Check out my original music at http://www.soundclick.com/bands/jacker "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but not in practice." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Ok so most likely I don't want to run my Klon or the tube screamer through the loop,so there is no issue. The echo and tremlo and Ultra Vibe should go into the loop and probably don't have a hot input signal anyway? what about the compressor? I don't know where to run the compressor? http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I would try the Ultra Vibe (a Univibe stylee, right?) before the input of the amp, for the classic sound; The Klon and/or Tube Screamer before the input of the amp, trying them before and after the 'Vibe to see which worked best; the echo in the 'loop; and maybe the compressor first in line, before any other pedals, in front of the amp's input. Maybe experiment, but that's where I'd start. Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Ok I'm gonna try that! It says the Marshall has a variable level selection switch for the effects loop? maybe this is for using stomp boxes or rack effects? but it has to be set to one or the other. I've got to either put the DanEcho stomp or the old tape echo EchoPlex through the loop then..ok I'm gonna try and see how it sounds. On the old Fender it just everyting in the front! http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by BluesWithoutBlame: Originally posted by Caevan_O'Shite: Most pedal effects units are instrument level, which is lower than line-level, right? If a pedal seems to have too hot of an output, chances are it is one like an overdrive or distortion that has a volume/output control on it than can be set to taste. Yes... It think instrument level is usually either -10db or -20db even. Somewhere in there. +10db is HUGE...for pedals made for guitars. Izzzat why my DanEcho has a hi/low output switch ...duh?? http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Originally posted by Caevan_O'Shite: I would try the Ultra Vibe (a Univibe stylee, right?) before the input of the amp, for the classic sound; The Klon and/or Tube Screamer before the input of the amp, trying them before and after the 'Vibe to see which worked best; the echo in the 'loop; and maybe the compressor first in line, before any other pedals, in front of the amp's input. Maybe experiment, but that's where I'd start. Right Caevan! it's a Univibe thingie and thanks again! for the advice. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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