Play What You Feel? - Maybe NOT!

[Dr. Ellwood]

Another thread got me thinking of limits on the Play What You Feel syndrome. I have been in bands with other guitar players when playing arrangement problems come up. This is kinda the way it goes: on any given arrangement, I might say ..AHHH Herbie, please play this line this way, Herbie says, well, I can't but check this out it sounds better! I say NO play it like this, Herbie says well I don't know how too, but this sounds better, I say NO it sounds like shit with the rest of the band AND if you can't play it get the FU,,ck out of here. So Herbie can't and WON'T even TRY to play to a WHOLE band theme. Ever happen to you? or some variation in the same theme?

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Oh, crikey yes. And it's even worse when you are trying to write a song with your girlfriend.

 

I've had the most bizarre fights over some stupid inversion of a chord. Sometimes these arguments have gone on for days and days. And the worst thing is that, because we were writing a song from scratch, both of us were equally right. It's a real pain.

 

I also hate it when you turn up to a rehearsal with a song that's about 90% arranged and then people start to get picky about the various parts. Look what they done to my song, ma! and all that.

[Gruupi]

Sometimes you have to suggest things for people to play, but if you tell me to get the **** out, I will. Any person with self respect would have left that band. Lifes to short to have people force me to play what I don't want to. Whether he can or cannot play is an issue that you should have decided on before he was invited into the band. If you hired this guy to play for you and he refused to play, fire him and be done. But you certainly won't have any friends if you treat people like that.

[DC Ross]

I think any of us that have played with other people have encountered differences of opinion. The important thing to remember is that everyone else's opinions are just as valid as our own and to keep an open mind.

 

-d

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by DC Ross:

I think any of us that have played with other people have encountered differences of opinion. The important thing to remember is that everyone else's opinions are just as valid as our own and to keep an open mind.

 

-d

Well DC in these kinds of situations everybody is NOT created equal. It is my experience that if you allow too much latitude in arrangements you end up with a muddy mess and if you let these things be open ended, you pay the price on stage. Not everything is left to decision by committee, not when tight arrangements are needed.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Gruupi:

Sometimes you have to suggest things for people to play, but if you tell me to get the **** out, I will. Any person with self respect would have left that band. Lifes to short to have people force me to play what I don't want to. Whether he can or cannot play is an issue that you should have decided on before he was invited into the band. If you hired this guy to play for you and he refused to play, fire him and be done. But you certainly won't have any friends if you treat people like that.

Well I have tons of friends acutally. These situations usually happen before they are actually hired. Mostly it will happen in the second or third rehearsal after a audition. After you get the chance to work on the specifics of the material, these inabilities start to surface. So what has happened the guys has waisted everyone's precious time for rehearsal. It's not a good thing.

[Tone Taster]

I have honed in my skills as a "parts player" and come up w/parts on the fly BOTH in the studio AND Live. I have been complemented by musicians better than myself in this arena as far as playing consistent parts. If one has a problem with it, I find another part no prob or mimic what they gove me w/no disagreements.

 

So, there is a difference between "play what you feel" and "find a killer part based on discretion and musicianship"

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

If I wrote it, play it the way that I wrote it. Do I want to hear your variation? Sure. But if I don't feel it, play it the way that I wrote it. And guess what? I'll do the same for the songs that you write. Because I respect you.

 

Bill

[The Lone Chicken]

Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios:

If I wrote it, play it the way that I wrote it. Do I want to hear your variation? Sure. But if I don't feel it, play it the way that I wrote it. And guess what? I'll do the same for the songs that you write. Because I respect you.

 

Bill

[Billster]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by DC Ross:

I think any of us that have played with other people have encountered differences of opinion. The important thing to remember is that everyone else's opinions are just as valid as our own and to keep an open mind.

 

-d

Well DC in these kinds of situations everybody is NOT created equal. It is my experience that if you allow too much latitude in arrangements you end up with a muddy mess and if you let these things be open ended, you pay the price on stage. Not everything is left to decision by committee, not when tight arrangements are needed.

Let's talk about "tight arrangements"

 

A good arrangement takes advantage of the particular talents of the players available.

 

Zappa was famous for this - listen to the different versions of Peaches En Regalia from the various periods of Frank's live recordings.

 

Another excellent example is Duke Ellington. Duke's early music from the Cotton Club era took advantage of the unique talents of Bubber Mily, a distinctive trombone player who used a cup mute in ways not previously heard. Later, he didn't have Bubber anymore, but he had Johnny Hodges and Paul Gonsalves on saxophones, and the music changed.

 

So the smart arranger takes the time to listen to what a player has to offer, and works to that strength.

[MILLO]

I agree, Herbie needs to get th fuck out!!!!

 

"I play how I feel"... well, you must feel like shit!

[MadStrum]

I agree that you can't have everyone playing what they want in an arrangment, the song will likely be a big mess. Usually one person has to coordinate and compromise - probably the band's appointed arranger.

 

Pier.

[Hardtail]

Lee,

 

I'm assuming that the scenario you laid out for us is an example of a band you were in where you were the band leader (and each band member knew it) and you guys were working with the objective of playing tunes live.

 

Because.... if this was just a jam session with some buddies on a Saturday afternoon, you need to lighten up.

 

Seriously, being the old Devil Dog that I am, I basically do the job the way it's supposed to be done. If I have a different way of doing it, I'll bring it up. If it sounds like shit, I don't have to be told more than once.

 

Hmm.... I guess that's the way I live life in my real job too.... for the most part.... I can be a little stubborn sometimes.

[Bbach1]

Really really interesting stuff. Personally, I think you should take all the freedoms you want when playing, just not when playing in a team event. There, you should work with and fit in with the team. It works that way in every aspect of life. In your family, in team sports, etc. There are times when you can express your individuality, and times when you must compromise and conform for the sake of those around you and to reach a common goal. Or else, you should get the f*** out.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Billster:

 

So the smart arranger takes the time to listen to what a player has to offer, and works to that strength.

[Pappy P]

I think you must have a "serious about music" attitude when you are playing on stage.

 

I've not had a lot of experience playing in a band, but I always try to perform as directed by the band leader.

 

I think if you are in a group you should work together on your arrangements and make it work, but if you are in a band, especially a working band, the leader is the leader.

[Eric Iverson]

It's an interesting challenge for all of us. To play what we think and feel, in light of the fact that other people in the band think and feel, too.. contrary to popular belief.. and then again, if you're playing for an audience, they think and feel, too! Now I know for some people, that's a revelation!

 

I concur that mutual respect is the way to go, and you gotta give a little to get a little, within reason of course! But once people know you aren't a totally self-absorbed *(&(, they're usually much more likely to work with you and accept your ideas!

[BluesWithoutBlame]

We have both problems in our group. Experienced folk ought not be told what to play. Amend that, experienced folk who practice in the off hours, and who work out their parts..should not be told.

Once in a while okay.

 

Other folks in our band, don't practice, screw up the songs by playing too much, with bad tone, sometimes awash in reverb (not for effect...not to get a Jimmy Reed sounding guitar...just cause, they don't bother about tone/effects settings) or too trebly, or too loud and need to be told.

 

Hard sometimes to tell the difference. Or make a rule about it.

 

I tried to explain to the group, the single biggest thing we could do to help...act like we were all famous musicians doing an all-star benefit. I tried saying, "if you had Eric Clapton, BB King, Buddy Guy, etc. etc., rehearsing some songs for a show, I can guarantee they would be more respectful in their exchanges than we seem to be."

 

Trying to say...some things are taste (usually okay if the person is talented, and/or has tried many different things and settled on one sound/solo/etc. after working or thinking about it) and some things are just WRONG (usually the guy that just throws things out there...way over his head ability-wise, and improvised there and then...mainly because he hasn't practiced the song or doesn't know WHAT to play there).

 

It's tricky. I can use reverb, I think I use it judiciously. I can live without it too. The other guitarist uses too much (it is awash in it...sounds mushy, doesn't have it's own soundspace in the mix) often is too loud, often has one tone all night (I tried suggesting the tone control and volume on his guitar ought to be moved once in a while or they might "freeze up"...I know, not very respectful is it?) and sometimes noodles instead of sticking to what he needs to play.

 

I know...thing is, respect also needs to be earned. By work. I can respect a guy that has tried, and come up with a way he thinks is the best. I may disagree, and if I can come with good reasons why (like say...playing all over the place leaves no place for other instruments. Can resolve it that that number is only a trio number, or make space) we can discuss it and come to an agreement.

 

But a guy that doesn't practice, NEEDS to, is not that good, has no business disrespecting the rest by barfing a lot of meaningless notes in the middle of a song. At that point it is not a "artistic vision" but simply laziness.

 

Saying "I am not able to do that" because of technical lack of ability...okay, there are two ways around that. Either the person practices to get it right, OR you change the part to something they can do. Okay, third would be have a temporary thing to do, while they work on it, but they have to make progress.

 

I think after a certain ability is attained though, suggestions ought to be general ("could you do that a little more over the top next time?" or "could you leave some more space fo rthe keyboards in that solo at the end?") or very few specific. Because if ability is there, then either you like that instrument for how they play or they ought to move on (or you ought to).'

 

But when it is mixed with ability AND folk with a lot of limits, the ones that just aren't that aware/good do need to take guidance.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Bbach of Bismarck:

Really really interesting stuff. Personally, I think you should take all the freedoms you want when playing, just not when playing in a team event. There, you should work with and fit in with the team. It works that way in every aspect of life. In your family, in team sports, etc. There are times when you can express your individuality, and times when you must compromise and conform for the sake of those around you and to reach a common goal. Or else, you should get the f*** out.

[Eric Iverson]

Re: the smart arranger takes the time to listen to what a player has to offer, and works to that strength.

 

Well, Duke Ellington sort of made a career out of that! "Concerto for Cootie" not "concerto for trumpet"...

 

Seriously, it's great when that's the prevailing mentality.. not always possible of course, and I suspect if a new guy came on board the Duke Ellington Band, they'd hand him the arrangement and say, "Here, play this!"

[Billster]

Originally posted by Eric Iverson:

Well, Duke Ellington sort of made a career out of that! "Concerto for Cootie" not "concerto for trumpet"...

 

Seriously, it's great when that's the prevailing mentality.. not always possible of course, and I suspect if a new guy came on board the Duke Ellington Band, they'd hand him the arrangement and say, "Here, play this!"

They'd write some new stuff and turn over the songbook. Why play the same songs ad infinitum? Yes, picture a day where the Rolling Stones don't play "Satisfaction"

[Tedster]

This very theme was the origin of the famous filmed argument between Paul McCartney and George Harrison in "Let It Be"

[Gruupi]

I guess the two extremes would be playing for Paul McCartney or playing for Miles Davis. Both end up with good results but from different angles. Paul is gonna say play this part exactly like I imagined, he has a vision for the song and his track record for producing great arrangements is unquestionable. Miles is gonna say, don't play it like you did before, he wants to be inspired by what you play every single time. I think most of us realize that leadership should be somewhere in the middle ground between these two extremes. I would never play for Paul McCartney, my goals for playing music just don't fit that mold. I doubt I have the creativity or musical knowledge to have played with Miles, but I lean more towards that direction.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Well I don't like unplanned for unrehearsed surprises at a gig! I see no need for unleashed random freeform playing when I am responsible for the product I sold to the customer! Players can be as loose and eclectic as they want in somebody else's organization! Chances are I won't have to think about their loose playing again because they usually aren't working!

[Billster]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Well I don't like unplanned for unrehearsed surprises at a gig! I see no need for unleashed random freeform playing when I am responsible for the product I sold to the customer! Players can be as loose and eclectic as they want in somebody else's organization! Chances are I won't have to think about their loose playing again because they usually aren't working!

Thank you Mr. Jukebox.

 

How do you feel when you see a show by the original artist?

 

Do you want to go to a concert and see the artist play exactly what was on the record, or do you prefer when they take it out of the box a little?

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Billster:

Originally posted by ellwood:

Well I don't like unplanned for unrehearsed surprises at a gig! I see no need for unleashed random freeform playing when I am responsible for the product I sold to the customer! Players can be as loose and eclectic as they want in somebody else's organization! Chances are I won't have to think about their loose playing again because they usually aren't working!

Thank you Mr. Jukebox.

 

How do you feel when you see a show by the original artist?

 

Do you want to go to a concert and see the artist play exactly what was on the record, or do you prefer when they take it out of the box a little?

Yep that's me alright (I don't see that as a negative at all) on the original writer/performer taking HIS material out of the box - I guess that's up to him.

[Billster]

See, I was smiling when I said that.

 

The question was what YOU want from a concert performance.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Oh ok, sorry I did not answer your question ok what I like to hear is how close to the recorded version they can get, because I know for sure how difficult it is to do. For instance, I am always amazed in a Floyd live concert how close they get to their recorded version. The Beatles in their later years, with all their studio techniques going strong, I always wonder how they would pull it off live. I don't really like them just jamming over their changes, because any band with experienced players can do that. Hell I can do that with no problem at all, but that's not the issue.

[Pappy P]

The way the question was posed sounds pretty simple. It's Elwood's band. He wants the song played a certain way.

 

I imagine he could find someone else willing to do the job.

 

I always seem to get fired when I try to make the boss play things my way.

 

Part of being a musician, is playing someone else's music.

 

That fellow will have plenty of opportunities to play his vision someday, if he works real hard and listens to the man that is.

 

You've got to respect someone that is serious about music.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Pappadopalus:

The way the question was posed sounds pretty simple. It's Elwood's band. He wants the song played a certain way.

 

I imagine he could find someone else willing to do the job.

 

I always seem to get fired when I try to make the boss play things my way.

 

Part of being a musician, is playing someone else's music.

 

That fellow will have plenty of opportunities to play his vision someday, if he works real hard and listens to the man that is.

 

You've got to respect someone that is serious about music.

The main point with me is that my band is a organization that entertains and plays music for people. It is a service organization and it has from it's inception been about promptness,quality, musicianship and solid business concepts. We take allot of pride in providing a good nights entertainment and do everyting we can think of to make the audience like and want to promote LIVE music. Everyone that is a part of this band knows it's charter and we don't have five soloists, we have musicians that know how to interact with each other to make a overall group sound that is well done in every way. My guys are responsible people who love to play and like to be compensated well for their hard work. None of us are stars, we are a band that is proud of the product we create. There is a leader and that is me, I get to be the leader because I make good decisions, the proof is in the puddin!!