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PLEASE HELP - Need wiring help on a complex rig


Duolos

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I am trying to run a total of 4 heads and 8 cabinets with an ISP pro rack G decimator, TC Electronics g-major, Peterson 450 strobe tuner with a GCX guitar audio switcher and the GCX ground control unit. I will only be using 2 heads at a time or even just one but there are 4 heads I want to use total. I may not always use effects but will use light effects most times. All the amps have effects loops and will be used as heads, not pre-amps. Can somebody help me wire this thing up the proper way so it can work without ground loops and so forth?

 

Much Thanks

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You need a single input/multi-output device, and I assume that you want it to be foot-switchable.... something like a Switchblade or Headtrip.

 

But here is my take on the rig as you propose it:

 

You have a lot of money tied up in this rig. I'd spend a little more time to wire it correctly and pass on the G Decimator.

 

My own view on effects... multieffects are convenient, but if you are looking for the best tone, and from your rig description, I gather this is what you are after, individual effects sound better to me. People like Teese, Fulltone, Analogman and many others are building really world class boxes. Oh, and if you choose to stay with the TC unit, it already has a tuner built in to it. So you could leave the Peterson in the home rig, at no loss in tuing ability. I replaced my own 450R with a Strobostomp, but I use all seperate effects.

 

I'm sure that there are other devices like the Switchblade or Headtrip, those just happen to be the ones with which I am familiar. You might be able to get a four channel buffered DA, or even use a headphone amp for this, but you would loose the foot-switchability, and there could be other issues involving tone.

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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wow you guys sure show a lot of love for this guy-he lost me @ 4 heads 8 cabs-

why in the world would you need that kinda gear and then NOT know or be informed on how to hook it all up in the 1st place?

:confused:

i guess thats what this forum is for tho'.

s :cool:

AMPSSOUNDBETTERLOUDER
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Bill's right about the tuner: use the Peterson to intonate and tune your guitars to begin with, but just use the TC's tuner during gigs, unless you're super picky and really can hear enough of a difference "live"...

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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Originally posted by stanner:

wow you guys sure show a lot of love for this guy-he lost me @ 4 heads 8 cabs-

why in the world would you need that kinda gear and then NOT know or be informed on how to hook it all up in the 1st place?

:confused:

i guess thats what this forum is for tho'.

s :cool:

I think if you need all that gear for a gig, and the venue is appropriate, your band should be able to afford having a tech to handle that stuff. If you are playing smaller gigs where you can't afford a tech (not to mention fitting 8 cabinets on stage) you don't need all that gear, or a dedicated tech.
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The point is I need help in wiring.....not why so much stuff, not where you playing for all that? You don't really need that...etc. etc. etc. I am looking for relevant help. 90% of the feedback I get has absolutely no relevancy towards the original intent of my initial post. The situation is frustrating enough as it is...
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Originally posted by Duolos:

The point is I need help in wiring.....not why so much stuff, not where you playing for all that? You don't really need that...etc. etc. etc. I am looking for relevant help. 90% of the feedback I get has absolutely no relevancy towards the original intent of my initial post. The situation is frustrating enough as it is...

Wow, yea, that will get ya lots of help :rolleyes::cool:
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Why is it so hard to help rather than criticize or question? I have posted this a few places and received positive feedback and help but most people question why those amps, how many gigs, how often,who do you think YOU are, etc etc and that makes no sense to me. For those who have provided sincere, genuine feedback, thank you very very much. To those who haven't, I am sorry to bother you and give you something to jump on.....
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I am trying to help, in my own way ;)

 

It's a legitimate answer to say, "hey you are frustrated with a complex rig, do you really need to go there?"

 

It's perfectly legit to advise you hire a technician. I lose enough time on technical issues to where my chops slip.

 

It's perfectly legit to wonder what the application is. I've seen guys in small clubs using dual stacks of amps, and pushing so much stage volume that they drown out the vocals and even the drums in the house sound system.

 

I suppose these are my own biases, and if it seems I'm taking it out on you, I'm sorry.

 

But my advice to honestly assess the need for a quad amplifier setup, while contrarian, is not a critique. It's an alternate solution to spending your time as an electrician instead of as a musician.

 

:wave:

 

And BTW Bill Park knows his stuff :thu:

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Very well, thanks for the feedback. I have chosen the 4 heads because of the sounds I can get. I wish it were easier and that I could get all of them out of 1 amp but I simply can't. I have received a lot of response on the Switchblade in place of the GCX stuff. I did get a diagram based off what I have now and need more cables and such to see if it would work. I fear ground loops. I was not familiar with the switchblade stuff too much but it sounds like they make wonderful stuff. Even though I possibly can do this with what I have, it may be better and easier to go with the switchblade stuff anyway. Again, thanks for the help and sorry if I vented unfairly. I would be happy to have somebody do this but I have yet to find anybody in my area who can. Once wired, the presets will be the next job. I would love to have somebody do it all for me and I just sit with guitar in hand and say yes or no...LOL.
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Final comment on your rig...

 

what I have found is that I can pick any amp and play through it, and find the amps that I like. That is why I own a pile of them for the studio... different sounds from each one.

 

However, when I stick anything in front of the amp, the differences begin to blur. And the mroe thinsg that I stick in front of the amp, the more blur. I particularly found that multieffects processors killed the differences that I might hear among amp choices and guitar choices.

 

So be careful about how much circuitry you allow to be inserted between your guitar and your amps.

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Thanks for the input and that is very true...I love a straight rig with just guitar an amp. For certain things I like a little effect but not a lot of effect and not a lot of the time. I absolutely love the tones I am getting without the effects from these heads. So to clarify Bill, you are saying I will have better "pure" tone by using a chorus pedal for example rather than the TC chorus by itself...??? If so, and it would make this whole thing easier, I am for it....LOL. But then be arned I am going to be asking you for pedal suggestions.....LOL
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Originally posted by Duolos:

...you are saying I will have better "pure" tone by using a chorus pedal for example rather than the TC chorus by itself...???

I haven't tried the TC, so I can't say for certain. I can only tell you that, after following the recomendations of others I tried out pedals by Fulltone and others, and I ended up buying individual boutique pedals, and replacing my multieffects boxes and my 'regular' pedals.

 

Perhaps if I tell you what I use, it will help you to see if any of my recomendations relate to your needs. I chose a mid-price solution. You can go with amps like Divided By 13 and some of the other high dollar choices... see Miles and his collection of just amazing amps. I went with a THD UniValve. I have a bunch of vintage guitars in the studio... really, too many to list. But my primary axes are modern guitars... a Gibson 336 with Duncan P-90s, and a custom-made Pellow with Duncan 57s. I use the Fulltone Deja2, Clyde, and '69; a Reverend Drivetrain; a Radial British Tonebone; a Mr Echo; and a Peterson Strobostomp. These all have real bypass setups, which seems to be a big issue in not eating tone.

 

I have a lot of money tied up in ADCs and DACs in the studio, and I'm not real excited about running my guitar through cheap ADCs and DACs that exist in most multieffects devices. I can use them for convenience, but that is a sonic compromise. You seem to be trying to build the ultimate sounding rig, and that is why I'm making these suggestions.

 

When I was searching for a chorus pedal, the good folks here often recommended that I check out the Fulltone Deja pedal. (I forget it's exact name...) I opted for the Deja2 which provided foot pedal control, and also has the ability to get a very Hendrix-swirrly sound.

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Seems like you could reduce this to 4 heads and 4 cabinets. What are we talking? 4x12's?

 

(32) 12' speakers is pushing a lot of air. You are going to be hard pressed to get a decent tone without pushing an airports worth of dB's.

 

I understand that a lot of the questions seem irrelevent, but it helps for people to know specifics in order to really help.

 

I think the majority of us are thinking that you are making the setup more complicated than it needs to be.

 

What are the heads and cabs?

 

If you give us a list of your gear (detailed), anyone of us could draw a diagram. Thing is, with this type of setup is that there are a multitude of ways you could hook all that up.

 

Here is another device that could help (it ain't cheap, but it's nice).

 

http://www.radialeng.com/di-jd7.htm

 

Q: Can I use a foot switch to control the JD7 so that it can be used live?

A: No. The JD7 was not intended for live use as few if any guitarists (except at the very high end) that would ever use more than two amps on stage at any time. This being said, there are some professionals that employ JD7s on stage in conjunction with custom effect board switchers. To address this need, we offer an ABY foot pedal in our Tonebone series called the Radial JX2 Switchbone that is a pared down version of the JD7 for live use. It allows one guitar to drive 2 amplifiers.

http://www.tonebone.com/tbone-jx2.htm

 

---

 

It still seems like if I remember correctly, the GCX is designed to do what you need to do.

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Now, is it possible for you to mic any or all of these amps at gigs,

 

OR provide a direct-send from a device like an H&K Red-Box or a GT Electronics Speaker Emulator-

 

-and have some effects (delay/echo, reverb, modulation like chorus or flange) added at the board, through the PA?

 

Or do you need to have the effects that you want in front of the amps or inserted into their effects-loops and heard through their respective speakers?

 

Answering some of these questions may help lead to some viable ideas...

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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I really appreciate your help and information. I am a metal head through and through. I will list what I play as well to give you some more info etc. I play Les Pauls, PRS, Gene Baker's primarily. The TC piece is a very nice multi piece. I have tried the radial pedals which are nice but for gain they don't touch the heads themselves. I have the radial british, Soldano supercharger, Bad Cat extreme, I have the basic Boss pedals. I use Diezel, Bogner, Engl, Framus, Mesa, with a Splawn Quick Rod soon. With these high gain heads, I get the hiss and white noise so thus the ISP decimator....which killed the noise and didn't touch my tone on a one or two amp setup with the radial switchbone.

 

The effecs are basically for clean type tone and leads...for cleans I like the tones Mark Tremonti gets and he uses the TC piece. I like Marty Friedman's lead tones. Style wise, Lamb of God, Nevermore, Arch Enemy, BLS type tones are my rhythm type tones I like. A little chorus, delay, reverb, flanger from time to time is all I desire. 90% of what I need is straight from the amps. Hope this helps:-)

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Here is the gear list for this rig. Again, I will only use two heads at once max if not just one head so the most speaker cabs in use at once would be 4 max.

 

Bogner Uberschall

Bogner Ecstacy Classic

Diezel VH4

Diezel Herbert

Bogner Ubercab straight cabs 6

Bogner vintage 30 straight cabs 2

Isp decimator pro rack g

GCX Guitar audio switcher

GCX ground control switch board

T.C. Electronics g-major

Peterson 450 Strobe

Sennheiser wireless

Monster or Mogami cables

 

I have many other heads but these are my favorites.

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WOW, you're picky! (Not necessarily a bad thing in itself, but as you're finding, it can be troublesome, too, right?) I'd think that you could cover a LOT of ground with that Diezel VH4 (that is their four x channel-switching monster with four or five effects-loops, isn't it?). The four channels have been aptly described as "Fender/Hiwatt, AC/DC, EVH, high-gain-Meltdown"...

 

I'm thinking, get your switching between amp-inputs figured out, maybe have that Peterson tuner between the guitar and amps/switcher-input, and have your "special" effects for clean-tones and solos added at the board, and into your monitor-mix, too. Especially delays with specific delay times and repeats tied to the tempo of a given tune or passage. Have a soundperson who knows your music; in this sort of a situation, that's really an additional band-member, in its own way.

 

Or, and this is throwing gas (and "G.A.S.") onto the money-fire here, have separate effects inserted into the loops of each of these amps that reflect the specific chores each amp will be used for. If one amp is the main "clean amp", and 'effect-A' is one that you use most or all of the time when going "clean", just have a dedicated effects pedal or unit in its loop, always on; there's one problem solved. Similarly on down the line with each respective amp, as far as you can go with that.

 

If a given effect is one that'll get used a lot no matter which amp is on, then that can simply be in front of whatever switcher you go with, ready to be stomped on as needed. The only problem here might be if the effect interacts differently with one amp than another, and can't be set to sound right with both or all amps.

 

I hope this is some help...

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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I am in florida, not the uk.....LOL. But money is and isn't a concern. I have spent a lot thus far and would like to tame down a bit. I will need a little effect from time to time on all the various combinations....

 

Thanks everybody for your help :-)

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Originally posted by Duolos:

I really appreciate your help and information. I am a metal head through and through. I will list what I play as well to give you some more info etc. I play Les Pauls, PRS, Gene Baker's primarily. The TC piece is a very nice multi piece. I have tried the radial pedals which are nice but for gain they don't touch the heads themselves. I have the radial british, Soldano supercharger, Bad Cat extreme, I have the basic Boss pedals. I use Diezel, Bogner, Engl, Framus, Mesa, with a Splawn Quick Rod soon. With these high gain heads, I get the hiss and white noise so thus the ISP decimator....which killed the noise and didn't touch my tone on a one or two amp setup with the radial switchbone.

 

The effecs are basically for clean type tone and leads...for cleans I like the tones Mark Tremonti gets and he uses the TC piece. I like Marty Friedman's lead tones. Style wise, Lamb of God, Nevermore, Arch Enemy, BLS type tones are my rhythm type tones I like. A little chorus, delay, reverb, flanger from time to time is all I desire. 90% of what I need is straight from the amps. Hope this helps:-)

Yeah, it helps., I would consider the fact that any time you take the stage, you have to compromise to some extent. And the practicality of all this is pretty scary.

I'm sure with a bit of work, you could set up a two amp setup (out of that list) and get seom workable results.

 

Are you concerned about live situations?

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