D_dup3 Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I've been listening to some of his stuff again lately. Any familiarity with his stuff reveals he was a great player but, really, how'd he do those fast as heck arpeggios ? Especially on the sorts of guitars available in those days & with only 1/2 a hand ! I'm currently reading one of the recent bios of him but although there's some good info on the musical milieux he drew on & also on his guitars the actual guitar playing info (so far) is pretty light. Does anyone have any idea if he might have used any alternate tunings ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Jazz Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 he did not use alternate tunings. are you reading the Dregni book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I think the high end custom built guitars in those days where easily as good as they are today, and in allot of cases probably better. It is the damage to his hand that is unbelievable. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Jazz Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Originally posted by ellwood: I think the high end custom built guitars in those days where easily as good as they are today, and in allot of cases probably better. It is the damage to his hand that is unbelievable. i don't think the Selmers he was playing were particularly good instruments, especially compared to the Martins and Gibsons of the day. quality just wasn't his thing, i mean, he would shimmy his bridge with matchbooks and shit. but he could make any guitar come alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Are you sure about the tuning question? Yeah, it's that one (Dregni). I'm only about 1/3 way in so far (& as always am working on several things at once). It's a bit odd because he's a guitarist himself (right?) but I think I've found a few of things that seem questionable/contradictory in his account, such as his descriptions of certain musical situations or the 2 stories he cites--- & both based on Grappeli's memories, at that!---of how DR & SG met. I also look forward to contacting him with some info on the Indic-cultural background of the Romany that he approaches but failed to tie in...but nobody knows everything, I guess, even me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 John Jorgenson's done a lot of research and experimentation in Djangology, including playing with two-fingers and hand-postions mimicing Django's, and it's all possible in standard-tuning. It does require great chops (certainly more than I've bothered to attain for a lot of his stuff), but it isn't Mount-Olympus-Impossible for mere-mortals. Do a few searches here on this forum; someone once linked to a great video-clip of Django playing live, it was great to watch him do those fast arpeggiated runs, with two fingers nimbly spider-hustling across the strings... I believe that the absolute most special aspect of Django's music and playing was his personality and expressiveness, though; his musicality, and spirit. He took such joy in playing, and let it shine through uninhibited! Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Jazz Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Originally posted by d: Are you sure about the tuning question? yes, absolutely. i have been studying django for more than five years now, and i have transcribed enough of his stuff to be certain. i also have dozens of instructional books in the django style, and i have never seen anything to the contrary. when you break down the runs, they make perfect sense for two fingers. part of the mystique of django is the phrasing that came out because of his deformity. if you listen to the modern gypsy masters, they use the same harmonic approach but phrase things very differently. do you have the Django in Rome box set? it's an absolute must-have for the gypsy jazz afficianado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoes Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Originally posted by Funk Jazz: Originally posted by d: [qb] Are you sure about the tuning question? yes, absolutely. i have been studying django for more than five years now, and i have transcribed enough of his stuff to be certain. But at you certain that what you've read is factual? Just kidding... Question: Was he able to utilize his index and middle finger at all? They're always in basically the same position in every photograph I've seen and I just wondered if he took advantage of them in some way. I'm completely ignorant on this topic other than knowing he was badly burned on these fingers. I still think guitars are like shoes, but louder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fumblyfingers Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Hmm, I had not heard of this book, I should go get it. Don't know if it is true but I seem to remember a story that Django loved fried chicken and whenever he was late for a gig that's where they would find him, hanging eating fried chicken somwhere and they'd rush him off to the gig, he'd go play with greasy chicken fingers. Even if not true, I dig the story. I have a double LP vinyl set called Django Vol 1. I remember clearly when I bought it all those years ago. I had damaged my hand pulling a transmission out of my car to replace the clutch...you know 20 something style, two wheels up on the curb, all by myself. Darn thing fell on my hand when it dropped out, so it was all swollen and creaky and I could not play for a couple weeks. I was all depressed about not being able to practise, so I went to the record store. I had remembered my Dad always teling me about Django and how good he was and saw that LP so I bought it. When I got home I went in my room, put the album on and sat on the floor and listened and I was just blown away. I can clearly recall thinking, wow this guy had lost so much of his hand and had gone on to be a monster guitar player and here I have a temporary injury and I am whining about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Geoff Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I've been listening to 'Heroes of the Hot Club' CD recently, and although I'm no newcomer to Django, I've been knocked out anew. BUT What's *really* freaked me out was my discovery of how much I enjoy Stefan Grapelli(sp?). His extremely melodic form of improvisation was a revelation. What an original he was, and I could listen to him all day. Geoff "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the World will know Peace": Jimi Hendrix http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=738517&content=music The Geoff - blame Caevan!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I haven't listened to Django in recent years, mostly due to not having a turntable. I forget to order the needle for it like a putz; but once that's taken care of, I'm looking forward to hearing some of those old records again. The clarinet player on some of those records is great, too! Does anybody else out there like clarinet players, BTW? I think it's unique in that it's equally good for jazz and classical music both. And guys like Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw were beautiful musicians. I'm not a big band fan particular but love the small group stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 I don't have a lot of his stuff but throughout there's that ability (almost tendency) to flick off those ultra-fast, near-glissando apreggios. Some of it, especially the diminished things* are not hard to imitate (though I can't duplicate). As to the difference in his phrasing compared to others of the same heritage, from what I've read a lot has to do with his immersion in the then-popular musette style & imitating the lines played by accordionists using their keys & buttons for similar effect. [* One of my favorite tricks on guitar is the way diminished lines can have two different fingerings, either (1)ascending both pitch & fretboard by tapping two notes, moving to the next highest string & the next highest fret, etc., or (2) ascending pitch while descending the fretboard by a somewhat similar but less regular technique. I think something like those, especially the former, were part of his bag of tricks....but, man, so fast! He plays those lines as fast as I can strum a chord.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Jazz Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Originally posted by Guitars are like shoes. But louder.: Question: Was he able to utilize his index and middle finger at all? They're always in basically the same position in every photograph I've seen and I just wondered if he took advantage of them in some way. I'm completely ignorant on this topic other than knowing he was badly burned on these fingers. he almost exclusively used his index and middle finger for single note lines. he was able to use the deformed ring and pinky fingers for chordal work though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Jazz Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 BTW... www.djangobooks.com is a great source for biographies and instructional material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 Originally posted by Guitars are like shoes. But louder.: Question: Was he able to utilize his index and middle finger at all? They're always in basically the same position in every photograph I've seen and I just wondered if he took advantage of them in some way. I'm completely ignorant on this topic other than knowing he was badly burned on these fingers. As I'm sure we all know this is a mere typing mistake about the index & middle fingers, which were the only ones he generally used. I haven't seen films but the position his ring & little fingers were stuck into seem to be handy, so to speak, for upper additions to ninth chords & I think some say he used them that way. [& of course, FJ beat me to the punch ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Originally posted by d: "...throughout there's that ability (almost tendency) to flick off those ultra-fast, near-glissando apreggios."I think that in "near-glissando", you're hitting on something. I think there were times when he'd be sliding his whole hand along the neck, up or down, at the same time as his fingers were dancing and skipping away like mad. There's a tendencey with many of us (myself included, for sure!) to keep anchored on the back or side of the neck while moving the fingers on the fretboard, that impedes that kind of playing. Originally posted by d: "As to the difference in his phrasing compared to others of the same heritage, from what I've read a lot has to do with his immersion in the then-popular musette style & imitating the lines played by accordionists using their keys & buttons for similar effect."That makes a lot of sense; cool! Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Check it out: J\'Attendrai , a good vid of Django playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Cool image, Chad! I have only watched it, not investigated the site but I suppose (from the name) that's from a promo film made for one of the original quintet's tours of England. At any rate, I really like the shorter first clip, which seems to indicate how he used his injured fingers. Thanks, again! & about Caevan's comment just above: Playing along the sting's something I usually forget to try until someone reminds me of the possibilities. Allied with vigorous strumming that could work, although it still requires some good pick-hand tevhnique to keep the line a discrete set of notes rather than an undifferentiated blur. "The clarinet player on some of those records is great, too!" Hubert Rostaing was DR's main man there. (I'm finishing the Dregni book ) I like Sidney Bechet, though that's not quite clarinet. Oh & Johhny Dodds! Any modern players? & another tip needing acknowledgement: "do you have the Django in Rome box set? it's an absolute must-have for the gypsy jazz afficianado." No. I've of course heard DR over the years but the only disc I have currently is some orchestral stuff cut in Brussels, great guitar work but very staid overall. One of my reasons for reading Dregni's book is to chart an overview of his career & recording dates to sort of cut through the various offerings ot find what seems most promising. He made a lot of records &, frankly, some of them are just run of the mill pop standards with snazzy guitar parts. From what I read, tunes were often selected, especially early on, by A&R types at record labels & held little real interest for Django other than as a way to get on record. BTW, Funkjazz, what do you (or anyone else) think of Dregni's book? I've noted some apparent discrepancies, though those could just be editing snafus. I gotta admit though, due to my own interests, I'm really hot under the collar to find some stuff by Baro Ferret , who sounds right up my alley, & may put off buying any DR discs for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Ferrington III. Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Originally posted by Eric Iverson: Does anybody else out there like clarinet players, BTW? I think it's unique in that it's equally good for jazz and classical music both. And guys like Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw were beautiful musicians. I'm not a big band fan particular but love the small group stuff! Lots of instruments are good for classical and jazz music. Well, lots of jazz instruments play quite comfortably in orchestras. Trombone? Piano? Double Bass? Trumpet? But yeah, I definitely think the clarinet is one of those underrated instruments. I'd love to be in a band with one. Sure, sax sounds brassier but there's something about the woody, pagan sound of a clarinet that never fails to amaze me. There's a modern French clarinet player I really like, his name is Denis Colin and he plays bass clarinet in a trio with a djembe and a cello. His CDs aren't the easiest to find, but they're definitely worth it. Band MySpace My snazzy t-shirt empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I never fail to be amazed at the different ways people perceive things! It would never have occurred to me in ten thousand years that a clarinet sounded PAGAN!! Or my little sister, the fine flautist, telling me she thought Ravel and Debussy sounded majestic. I would have thought, "beautifully colorful and subtle.. inventive..." but not "majestic"! But that's what makes conversation interesting, right? The different viewpoints! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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