[Playing Live - keyboard patch levelling with 2 keyboards]

Revisiting this threat after much more gigging and experimenting.

 

i have settles on the opinion that sending a single stereo mix is for me. I saw some say this is bad, but sometimes I might have various splits on both keys - it’s not like the sound guy can control those and really, what’s the difference between a split or two keyboards 🤷‍♂️

 

I have now purchased a rack mixer with a monitor out. I have my keyboards and mixer line and monitor levels all set at home for perfect gain staging. I monitor what songs I am having to turn up or down for and make minor adjustments to patches after each gig. My gain staving means the balance between both keyboards at every gig is exactly the same, and I can control the balance tweaks needed based on the room etc.

 

Its working great, and no complaints from sound techs so far!

 

Thanks to everyone for your input - there’s never one simple answer to anything 

[2 tier set-up upgrade]

Thanks everyone! It’s nice to know my thought process is along the right lines. New gear is a big investment so I’m keen to get it right. I need to research the Fantom 08 - to be honest I thought they were the same keyboard for ages. I did read something about having to subscribe to a cloud service with the Fantom but that was a long time ago.

 

i definitely like the option of one keyboard as the brains - as long as it has he processing power to handle it - the Juno DS definitely doesn’t once you start layering etc.

[2 tier set-up upgrade]

I currently have a Juno DS88 and a VR09. I run set list maker on a tablet which sends midi signals to the DS when I change song which changes the performance.

 

The reason I love the Juno DS is the ability to create performances, the flexibility I have with them and how easy it is to set up midi signals from set list maker. The two drawbacks for myself are the poor organ sounds and that I can only assign the expression pedal function globally, not per performance. This is possible with more midi but I don’t want to have to deal with that.

 

I got the VR09 to handle the organ, but it’s also very useful for quick access to main sounds such as strings, brass, synth & organ. The downsides are it’s almost impossible to set up midi to change registrations, and it lacks flexibility when creating registrations. For example, I’d like to layer the brass sounds with a mix of brass sounds and synth but I can only dual.

 

My thoughts are, purchase one 88 key workstation that can do the below, and run a second midi controller from the first keyboard:

- Achieve all Juno DS functionality

- Assign different functions to the expression pedal per performance

- Have the processing power to handle running a second midi controller with lots of layers, effects etc without an issue

- Have a solid organ and Leslie sound

 

I know the obvious answer is to use a DAW, but this is out of budget and not how I want my rig set up. I was considering a FA 08 and midi controller which would be in budget, but I’ve heard mixed reviews.

 

the other option is an FA 06 and use the Juno DS as a midi controller.

 

Any thoughts?

[Playing Live - keyboard patch levelling with 2 keyboards]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

Common problem.  It's not easy even with one keyboard to be consistent.

 

I personally have always liked to submix.  FOH and the band only sees "keys" no matter how many I have.  I have more control to be able to match volumes that way.  Unless you have a dedicated engineer, they are not likely to quickly know which keyboard is too low or too high, especially if you do a lot of splits and layers.

I see a couple things that make it worse.  If you are like me and do some gigs stereo and some mono, or have a mix of monitoring and FOH in stereo or mono for you/bandmates/engineer, that has introduced a new variable.  The same patches can (not always) fluctuate in stereo vs mono.

Everything can sound different on different speakers/earbuds too.  So patches that sound equal on your (e.g.) Yamaha DXR wedge might not sound that way through the QSCs out front.   Your drummer on IEMs is getting yet another version.  Edit: and Reezekeys mentioned the room, that is a factor.  

Another factor is the band.  Patches that are leveled at home suddenly start popping out or getting submerged once the band plays.  Mainly this will be guitar since it shares the midrange but vocals and even bass and drums can do it too.

Unfortunately, I've noticed that live sound engineers LOVE to slap very heavy compression on keys the second that they thing patches are too loud.  Some of them do it up front.  I've had aux mixes where my keys are in the mix post-insert and I can hear that crap, and absolutely hate it.

This challenge is one reason I try to re-use patches and don't have any desire to set up a dedicated patch per song if I can help it.  The more patches you have, the worse the problem is.   I also am of the opinion that less fx help this issue and help instruments cut.  Guitarists/keyboardists with tons of verb on their patches can make a big mess where it's hard to hear anything yet it's too loud, especially in rooms that are "live".   Fx are also the biggest problem with stereo-to-mono, other than stereo sampled pianos.  

You comment on compression, I am very interested in exploring this topic more. The sound guy informed me it was standard to be compressing keys, but I understand he was using compression to help level my sound. I could have understood him wrong but I do know compression was being used quite heavily.

 

This thread has reminded me that this is a subject I’ve seen brought up elsewhere so I may start a new three on this subject if it doesn’t already exists.

 

Its always hard when people with experience have conflicting thoughts but I can imagine compression impacts the sounds I spend so long creating.

[Playing Live - keyboard patch levelling with 2 keyboards]

Well, what amazing responses - thank you everyone. It’s really nice to hear that my initial thoughts and set up were not miles off. It’s great to hear the opinions of sound engineers too.

 

Whilst some of my patches could do with being tweaked in the patch itself, as many of you have said it’s near impossible or to achieve consistency. It’s decided, I will stick to my guns and manage the balance of my two keyboards at the source and let the sound engineer have one stereo feed with both my keys.

 

Thanks to you all again for such detailed responses!!

[Playing Live - keyboard patch levelling with 2 keyboards]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

You indicated that the in ears were balanced between the two keyboards but the FOH wasnt.  I would somehow then figure out how to get the properly leveled in ear mix's output to the FOH.  I mix my various keyboards at my mixer to ensure the volume balance between all instruments is leveled, the send the mixer's output to my monitor as well as to FOH.  This way if I'm balanced in volume in my monitor then the signal going to the FOH is also volume leveled.

Thanks for this. The issue is that we’re using apps so we can control our individual monitor mixes, so the ability to be able to mix the keyboards separately actually is a hindrance as it causes my in ears to not reflect the balance between the too in the FOH mix.

[Playing Live - keyboard patch levelling with 2 keyboards]

This may have been covered, but I’m new here and wanted to open up this topic. I’m moderately new to playing keys live (previously a drummer) and have some areas I’m struggling to find a general consensus on that were highlighted in my last gig.

 

Some background. I run a Juno DS 88 and a VR-09b through a personal mixer and send just 2 channels (left and right) to the main desk. I will sometimes incorporate stereo DIs but rarely for small gigs. I also have in ears feeding me a mix from front of house so I can here the levels between the two and control this throughout the gig.

 

This set up allows me to manage the mix between the two keyboards as I find it near impossible to level every patch to sit perfectly without adjustment throughout a performance.

 

The issue: my patch levels are not consistent, despite numerous hours attempting to fix, however I’m finding this is common from conversations I have had. At my last gig the sound guy (an experienced guy) was keen on sending both keyboards separately to the main mixer, giving him 2 sets of stereo lines. This gave him more control, but made it near impossible for me to manage the level between the two keyboards as my in ears feed didn’t necessarily reflect FOH. I understood his point but my set up has been working for me.

 

Footage from the gig made it clear that a lot of the time the levels of the keys were really poor, or not heard at all, however my in ear mic was great. This is because both keyboards were mixed separately in my in ears so gave me no reflection of the balance between the two FOH.

 

What are your thoughts here? Is there a better way to level my patches, should I have stuck to my guns and kept my original set up giving me control of the balance between the two keyboards; or should I be trusting the sound guy, relinquishing control and awareness of the balance and levels?

 

I am still thinking my original set up of just sending a single stereo mix for the two keys to the main desk works best.