Mighty Ferguson
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Posts posted by Mighty Ferguson
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Huh, well it turns out that IK Multimedia have a Mu-tron III pedal in their Amplitube product and it's free through the end of the month. I guess I picked the right time to look into this. I'll give it a go.
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Does anyone have any suggestions on how to best duplicate the Clav sound from Higher Ground with software only? My question is about live using MainStage, however I suppose the answer would be the same for in a studio, as I'm only talking about software. I think I've probably got perfectly good raw Clav samples, but the problem is the auto-wah/envelope filter effect. I know Stevie used a Mu-tron III pedal, and the things I've tried have not sounded the same:
I started with Keyscape, which is my main Clav go-to, trying to dial in an auto-wah sound using the built-in effect. It sounds great, but not like Higher Ground. When that came up short, I layered the built-in Vintage Clav on top, with it's own auto-wah. I set it with the speed a little different than Keyscape, and it did help to thicken up the sound and give it another dimension. But it's still not hitting that smooth complexity of the Mu-tron.
Another aspect to the sound is how staccato it is - when you listen to Higher Ground, it doesn't have the abruptness of Superstition, for example. I know that a lot of that comes down to how it's played, but I did add a quick slap-back type delay, which also helped a bit.
I realize that there's probably a bunch of overdubs in the recording and secondary players live, etc - but I'd love to get closer to this tone live. Besides Keyscape and the built-in Vintage Clav, I've also got the Arturia Clavinet-V available.
The original:
And a live version:
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When I played this previously, I believe I used a french horn patch on the Kronos and it was quite close to the part you're asking about at :10.
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4 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:
UI is no small piece of the equation, especially on multi engine boards with split/layer capability. I saw a guy having success with the Gemini, a Roland FP-10 and a Sipario Midi router. But needing the Sipario definitely adds to the cost of a Gemini.
Exactly. I found I couldn’t really use the DMC/Gemini live without some sort of external UI to control it all. I did a ton of work in BandHelper on the iPad to set it all up and switch patches on the two Gemini parts for each tune. -
Thanks for this Dave - I love these tour rig videos.
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6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:
Personally, I don't thing a single manual DMC with Gemini module would be an Electro killer. One of the biggest appeals of the Electro is the array of fully dedicated 1-function-per-knob controls. Every piano, organ, and effect control is logically placed/grouped and labeled for its function, no matter what sound you're playing. The DMC is still a generic control surface. In almost all ways, the DMC front panel interface is not as good as the Electro's, the one exception being that it has two sets of drawbars for organ (and even that would probably disappear in a one manual version). I'm not saying that what you're describing wouldn't have appeal, I'm just saying that I don't think it would be much of a threat to an Electro, whose biggest appeal might be its immediacy.
I don't want to go too far off topic here from the Seventeen, but I've read posts from Delaware Dave for a few years(I think?) about hoping for a 76 key DMC/Gemini combo, and a quick comment on this as a DMC-122/Gemini owner:
Unless the UI of the two devices are brought together and seriously overhauled, I wouldn't recommend such a product. I understand what Dave's after here, but the whole split personality of the DMC/Gemini makes it REALLY clunky to use. For those who don't know, there's a Mac/PC editor application for the DMC which is similar to controller editors from other brands (e.g. M-Audio, etc)., then there's a totally separate editor for the Gemini, which is web browser based and requires an ad-hoc WiFi connection to the Gemini module (I believe there's a newer software option now for the standalone Gemini, but not for the one in the DMC). So it really is just like using a separate controller and MIDI module from two distinct vendors, despite the fact that one is literally sitting inside the other. Don't get me wrong, the sounds in the Gemini are great, and such a product would be as Dave suggest - a real competitor for Hammond/Nord - as long as it functions like a modern performance board.
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On 6/13/2022 at 2:45 PM, ElmerJFudd said:
It shifts to doing high trigger when you’re in organ mode? Or it’s a user defined parameter?
My plan was also to be able to use with B3X on recording projects. Live, with band. Onboard is good enough.
Correct - when you're in organ mode it transmits the high trigger point without being velocity sensitive. When you're in the voice mode, it's the normal velocity sensitive output. When I used it with the Kronos, I was able to have it switch between the modes depending on the Kronos Combi I was using.
If you're using it live with the onboard sound, you may want to consider adding a Ventilator or Lester K pedal. It would be a bit more effort to enable/bypass it each time you switch in/out of organ mode, however it really helps the sound.
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20 hours ago, Al Coda said:
Keybed is important, and when it feels like VK8, it´s good and might be a reason to keep the machine.
But the MIDI conversion thingy is the opposite,-
quote from above:
"the drawbars don’t send CCs, you need a conversion box to change/translate those sysex messages" ...
means,- the drawbars transmit MIDI-SysEx which for other purposes need to be translated to MIDI CCs.
☺️
A.C.
You're right - I got the drawbar translation thing backwards. Did I mention I haven't used it in a while? 😉 Anyway, at the time I used the MIDI Solutions box to translate the drawbars from Sysex to CC to control the CX-3 engine in the Kronos I was using at that point. Maybe I'll set it up again and try it with IK B3-X, which I'm using now with MainStage. A VR-700 with B3-X would be pretty good I think.
Speaking of the keybed, I don't think anyone above mentioned this but the VR-700 also can transmit with a high trigger point (which there's a separate thread discussing now), which makes it even better for outboard sounds.
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I still have a VR-700, but I haven’t touched it in quite a while. I’ve been on the fence about selling it. I don’t really have a use for it right now, but the keybed is so good, plus a set of drawbars (that need a MIDI Solutions box to change to Sysex as mentioned above), etc…. I haven’t been able to bring myself to part with it. I have a digital CX-3 that’s also in that situation, but for reasons other than the keybed on that one.
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Since I switched to MainStage and a pair of controllers, I decided to carry either a backup board or an iPad or something for emergency backup. After reading about it on here, I picked up a Casio CT-S1 as a backup board. Very inexpensive, and a good set of bread and butter sounds.
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I went through this same exercise a few years ago looking for a lower controller to use with the Kronos 61 I was using as an upper board at the time. I ended up going with a Roland VR-700. It has a great semi-weighted waterfall keybed, although no aftertouch. Plus when the organ mode is active, I was able to use the drawbars (with the help of a MIDI Solutions box) and get the high trigger point. The main downside is that it's heavy.
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My current project is upgrading to v2.15 this week due to this finding.
Vonnor, there's yet another new CVE (DDoS vulnerability, not as severe) for 2.15. Plan to go straight to 2.16.
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Unfortunately this has been dominating my work life since Friday. While true there's not anything a normal user can do, it's legitimately one of the worst vulnerabilities to come along in a long time due to the combination of being fairly easy to exploit, plus is a remote code vulnerability - meaning you can get a target server to run malicious code directly. It's got a vulnerability score of 10.0, the highest there is. The underlying Log4j component is present in lots of Java environments, even if it's not being used, so the impact is very wide. Web apps of all sorts are vulnerable, and so for a lot of companies it's a combination of fixing the ones coded in-house, plus waiting for the vendors for vulnerable off the shelf software to fix theirs.
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I actually was able to pick up a used clonewheel Hammond shell from Valhalla Woodworking on Craigslist a couple of years ago. It fits the DMC pretty well, and has the right vibe for the funk/soul band I play in. So yes, it"s ugly, but nobody sees it at a gig.
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Not to derail things, but I think those things are wicked-cool conceptually, but butt-ugly visually. I hate to admit that the looks of that thing kept me from seriously considering one, much as I was impressed by it. I know.... so, so vain. :-(
I don"t actually disagree with you here. I think the main source of ugliness is the side panels. I"ve debated taking them off and trying to make some more traditional panels. The thing is, it"s also kind of awkward to move and those ugly side panels actually make it a fair bit easier to pick up.
I created a thread a few days ago saying I was planning to switch to two 61 key controllers instead, and was asking for sone feedback on different controller keybeds. I only got one reply, questioning ditching the DMC. Which is a valid question, considering it"s kind of one of a kind. But it"s also 40 lbs, and I"m lazy.
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I have a GSI DMC-122, which as far as I know is the only actual real dual manual MIDI controller. I think they might be discontinued now, but they do seem to pop up used online from time to time. Might be worth keeping an eye out for one.
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Heh, thanks for the bump.
And yeah, I hemmed and hawed about whether I should just stick with the DMC-122 for quite a while. I supposed I'm still a little on the fence if I'm being honest. The only real downside to it is the weight (it's 40 lbs.). Outside of the controller topic, I also have the Gemini module in it, which is a back up sound source if I have an issue with MainStage. If I go with the two controllers, I'll probably end up posting another thread to discuss back up sound options.
Damn, this thread may end up putting me right back on the fence.
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I'm sort of following on from Drawbars' recent thread looking for a low profile bottom keyboard to go under his Stage 3 Compact:
I currently use a GSI DMC-122 as a controller for MainStage, but I'm planning to switch to a pair of 61 key controllers. This is mainly to cut down on weight, but it would also likely give me some more real time controls to use.
For the bottom board, I've got the same low profile need that Drawbars did, as I'd like the spacing to be as close to the DMC-122 as I can get it. The Nektar Impact GXP61 was mentioned as a possible option in that thread and I think it looks like a good choice. Besides the low profile aspect to it, it's apparently got a semi-weighted keybed, plus both sustain and expression pedal inputs.
For the upper board, I was hoping to find something with the same keybed, but a good assortment of knobs/buttons/sliders, etc. The Nektar Panorama T6 looked like a nice option at first, but it's apparently a synth action keybed and wouldn't be the same as the GXP61. The M-Audio Oxygen Pro 61 looks like a similar option, but with a semi-weighted keybed, although I don't know how close it would feel to the Nektar GXP61.
Which gets to the crux of my problem... I've got no way to try these out (rant about Guitar Center in Boston refusing to open a box to let me try one earlier today goes here). So I'm hoping someone here has put their hands on some of these and can give me some opinions about how these controllers feel and play. Or maybe even other suggestions on how to achieve a pair of controllers in that close arrangement with similar keybeds. I realize how subjective this is, so I thought I could list some keys I liked and didn't like, to help with any comparisons people can give. Based on the list below, I *THINK* you'd agree that I should be looking for semi-weighted instead of synth action, but I'm not even 100% sure on that part.
Within the past few years I have played and like: Korg Kronos 61, Yamaha Motif XF7, Roland VR-700, GSI DMC-122, Korg CX-3 (digital version, with the waterfall keys), Native Instruments Komplete S61 v2
Within the past few years I have played and didn't like: Korg Krome 61, Roland Gaia, Roland VR09 (first version)
Thanks for any help here.
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I'm ready to order as soon as these are announced. I sold my Kronos a couple of weeks ago to fund it.
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Well, unfortunately I could not get Mainstage and Keyscape to exhibit what you're seeing.
I use a couple different Keyscape patches inside Mainstage. One is the LA Custom C7 Piano and the other is the JD-800 - Crystal Dreamphase. Each are loaded just once in a patch, and then I 'alias' them for other Mainstage patches where I use them.
(My late 2018 Mac Mini 32GB memory and 1TB of SSD doesn't blink an eye...handles it perfectly )
I do have the I have 'Expression' turned OFF on the Keyscape System page, and I block CC#11 and CC#7 on the channel strips on the Mainstage patch
Thanks for checking. Turning off Expression in Keyscape and blocking those on the channel strips are good suggestions. I'll try those to help rule out something happening with my controller as the cause.
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This might be a dumb idea (or any number of reasons) - I don't know as I don't gig MainStage and I don't own Keyscape - but:
Might this be something to ask Spectrasonics customer support directly?
I gotta believe they'd have lots of users combining MS and KS, and surely someone has tried to run multiple instances and grappled with this one in their experience.
Tim
Not a dumb idea at all, and my next stop. I just figured I"d throw it out here as I know there are some users of the MainStage/Keyscape combo.
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I haven't run into that specific problem with Keyscape.
I do find that the Keyscape programs are way too hot (as most vst presets are) and I really need to bring most of them down about 9db or even more. Occasionally I will select a Keyscape program and it will be firewalled on volume. I think because of some spurious midi input from the volume pedal that gets routed to "expression" when I really want the volume pedal mapped to the master volume fader.
I had the same thought. I actually unplugged my expression pedal to make sure that wasn't it.
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Plus...my issue, is that for some reason when I open a Keyscape patch for the first time within Keyscape, it NAILS a middle C at 127 velocity. Doesn't happen when selecting MS patches that contain KS programs, only when I open a new patch within KS.
You can turn that off. Down under the patch list, right next to the right-most button with the "Play" triangle on it, there's a drop down to turn off Auto Play. That should get rid of the sample note playing when you change sounds.
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I have not encountered this with KS and MS
Let me see if I can recreate your issue later today and I'll see if I can spot anything
I appreciate that David!
How to duplicate Higher Ground clav tone w/ software?
in The Keyboard Corner
Posted
Thanks for posting that video. I think you might be onto something with the tape delay. I’ll play with that too.,