voxpops
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Posts posted by voxpops
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One other thing, although it's difficult to be certain, is that the acoustic pianos seem to be sample-based but use modeling for string resonances, duplex scale, release note, key off and damper noise. The EPs are fully modeled, I believe. It may be similar to the old GEM acoustic pianos which were also sample-based and I think used some sort of look-up table. Again, the GEM EPs were modeled. I had a PRP800 for a while, which I really enjoyed playing, but which was totally unreliable!
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9 hours ago, BKZ3 said:
Wow, thank you, @voxpops, for all of that info! I dug all through the manual to no avail, but eventually stumbled randomly onto the solution for my stuck note. It was conflicting MIDI assignments in different Zones. For that problem multi, I had Pedal 2a in Zone 1 assigned to Data Inc (MIDI 96), as usual, for the patch change, but for some reason Zone 3 had Pedal 2a assigned to Sostenuto (MIDI 66). After I turned that off in Zone 3, problem solved. When I programmed this show, I had to copy & paste existing Multi IDs on the work unit, and I didn't think to check Zone controls. I did when I found out about MIDI 96, but it didn't occur to me that the stuck-note problem was also a Zone control issue. What a relief!
So glad you found the solution. I must admit I was surprised to find that overrides can be overridden! The potential is huge with these Kurzweil boards, but the complexity can be daunting.
Good luck with the show!
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Just seen this in the K2700 manual - seems to confirm what I experienced regarding expression pedal behavior:
"Important Note: Values of “None”
For factory programs, standard parameters like Expression (program volume), Sustain,
and Sostenuto are always set to None by default. If you change one of these values, either
on the PARAMS page in the Program Editor, or with a physical controller from Program
Mode (or the Program Editor,) the same value will be used for any other program you
select, if you select another program that uses a value of None for the same parameter.
These values remain set even if you don’t save the program.
This can be useful, for example, when using an expression pedal to control program
volume. By default, all factory programs have their Expression parameter set to a value of
None, and Expression (program volume) by default can be controlled by an expression
pedal plugged into the CC 1 Pedal jack. With an expression pedal plugged into the CC
1 Pedal jack, you can control the volume of any factory program, but when you select
another factory program, it will have the same volume that you set with the expression
pedal in the last program. This way, the volume of your programs will stay consistent,
and can always be changed by the expression pedal. If you want a program to have a
default volume, you must set a Value other than None for the Expression parameter.
For all parameters with a Value of None, any values set with a physical control
will not be saved when saving the program. You must set the Value column for
that parameter to something other than None in order to set and save a value.
These values will remain set until changed with a controller, or until a program is
loaded on the current MIDI channel that does not have a value of None for these
parameters."However, it was also suggested earlier that entry/exit parameters might assist here as well. Having just read the following, I'd be inclined to be cautious about adjusting those for internal sounds as there may be undesirable consequences:
"ENTRY EXIT Soft Button
Press the ENTRY EXIT soft button to toggle between showing Pan/Volume and ExitPan/
ExitVol on the Overview page. ExitPan and ExitVol are MIDI Pan (CC 10) and MIDI
Volume (CC 7) messages that can be sent to each Zone’s MIDI channel when exiting the
current multi by selecting another Multi or Program.
ExitPan and ExitVol should typically be set to a value of “None”, which sends no message.
To select a value of None, scroll below 0 or type -1 followed by the ENTER button. Setting
ExitPan or ExitVol to 0-127 can be useful for advanced MIDI configurations and when
controlling external MIDI instruments or software. For example, an Exit Volume message
of 0 could silence an external MIDI instrument when exiting a Multi. For Zones which are
playing local programs, Exit Volume should typically be set to None to avoid unwanted
volume changes when selecting Multis."Regarding overrides, the following passage was helpful to me to indicate potentially why SW2b wasn't working for patch change. If it's already set to "OFF" in multis, it won't be overridden:
"In Multi Edit Mode, setting a Pedal Mode to “Off” will disable the override for that Pedal
in the selected Zone. It can be useful in Multi Mode to disable the Pedal Override for some
Zones. For example, you may want to use a Pedal Override to control Sustain in all Zones of
a Multi, but disable Sustain for one Zone.
When a Pedal Switch Override is used, the pedal will behave in Multi Mode as if the
OnValue and OffValue are set to 127 and 0 respectively (this will not be shown in Multi Edit
Mode). When a Pedal Switch Override is set to Sustain, Sostenuto or Soft, the pedal will
behave in Multi Mode as if Pedal Type is set to Momentary (this will not be shown in Multi
Edit Mode). When set to Data Inc, Data Dec, Quick Acc Inc or Quick Acc Dec the pedal
will behave in Multi Mode as if Pedal Type is set to Toggle (this will not be shown in Multi
Edit Mode)."Hope this helps with your menu diving @BKZ3!
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49 minutes ago, BKZ3 said:
I just tried replicating the stuck-note issue with a practice unit I was able to take home. The GIF is how I was able to replicate it: no holding down of the sustain pedal or held notes. At home, if I hit it once, it does nothing; if I go back a multi and do this again, it sticks. IRL, it usually happens without me going back at all. This was with the Dyn French Horns program -- it also happened with the Bass Clar/Clar/Fl program. Obviously, the GIF is just an example, but similar motion in practice triggers it. This is too subtle a movement to make a consistent change in performance. 🫠 This unit is separate from the one I play on, so it seems to be a K2700 issue period. I looked through all of the settings, but I couldn't narrow down what it could be. It could be any parameter, as far as I know.
When I ran my test previously I'd been switching multis using the panel buttons, not a footswitch. I've just run the test again with a pedal and come up with one or two anomalies. Whether these translate to the K2700, I don't know.
I plugged a sustain pedal into the SP6's #2 pedal socket. Using the overrides in the Global menu (Data Inc), initially the switch pedal started sustaining everything! I restarted the piano and made sure the plug was fully seated in the socket. This time I found that while #2a worked perfectly, advancing patches one at a time, #2b would not shift programs/multis forward, despite being set to Data Inc. I have no idea whether I needed to change another setting somewhere else.
The only things I can think of to try would be to test out different soft switches for the Data Inc/Dec override, make sure the footswitch plug is fully inserted and the pedal is not depressed at startup, and try another pedal.
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20 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:
I am not a fan of their acoustic pianos live - recorded they are fine and sound great in headphones. That was an odd side effect of the pandemic - there were no gigs and I lived in a dorm, so I only heard the PC4 through headphones for the first year and a half or so. Of course, that sound didn't translate the same way to a set of good PA speakers once gigs started back up, and I was disappointed. But that really was just a personal taste piece with acoustic pianos
I find this to be the case with my SP6 too, although stereo reproduction helps live (I use EV ZX1As and they're probably about as good as I can expect). It's the versatility and ease of control that keeps me with Kurzweil - and at least the pianos aren't thin.
On the subject of patch changing, I find that I use multis almost exclusively - including for single sounds - as it makes stepping through during performances so much easier than going back and forth with programs. As a result I have to work around the dropout glitch where possible when changing multis. On some patches I've been able to significantly reduce, and in one or two cases eliminate, the glitch via careful tailoring of FX in adjacent multis. Trouble is, I don't really know how I managed to solve the problem on certain multis, but not on others. That led to me use zone switching within multis that have free parts available, for seamless and instantaneous changes.
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I don't have the K2700 but do have the SP6. The first issue you mentioned about the delay in patch switching can be partially worked around by setting up a multi with a sequence of programs that you then switch between using the zone buttons underneath the faders. I assume you can assign up to 9 zones/programs on the K2700. I do this frequently on the SP6 to avoid FX glitches when switching between programs. It works seamlessly as all the FX are already assigned and loaded per multi. The only limitation is that I sometimes run out of FX resources if I have more than two or three effect-hungry programs (such as KB3 plus piano) in a multi, but I assume the K2700 has more horsepower in that area.
Regarding your note-sticking problem, it sounds potentially like the patch change note-off MIDI command is being overridden by the held note, but is then not triggered when you release that key. I just tried a few patch changes with held notes in both program and multi modes on the SP6, but experienced no stuck notes. In Global mode I also changed between "Immediate" and "AllKeysUp" for multi mode patch changes to see if that made any difference - which it didn't. Could it be a small firmware issue in the K2700 that could be easily resolved by Kurzweil? It might be worth contacting them about that.
In terms of the expression pedal problem, my VR-09 always seems to default to a full-on start position per patch - no matter where the expression pedal is set - whereas the SP6 normally reads the current position of the pedal, although it does seem to vary sometimes depending on whether that multi has been previously accessed in the session (perhaps remembering the pedal state???). I don't actually use expression pedal very much with my SP6, but I did just experiment with setting the value to 127 on one multi vs "NONE" on another and then the board reset the pedal every time I reverted to the one with value 127 (but not on the other). I think the default position is "NONE" so it's worth giving some of your multis a 127 value to see if that solves the issue.
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2 minutes ago, ChazKeys said:
I think you can use Control Room and Main Out at the same time on the Behringers - there are loads to choose from: 502, 802 etc
One thing to be aware of with the small Behringers is that the control room volume is also affected by the main mix volume control.
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29 minutes ago, CEB said:
I use one of these that sits on top the stage piano at a rehearsal place. It works fine. If you want something really good get a Key Largo.
I also use one of these on top of my SP6. Although the two main output pairs have only one master control, the phones output is independent of the master level and can be used to send a secondary signal. I find the quality and versatility good. It's sufficient to use with my two main boards plus an occasional monosynth.
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On 5/20/2021 at 7:43 PM, JDBlackhawk said:
My concern though-the internal construction of the new breed of lightweight hammer-action keys. I have seen only one picture of the internal mechanism of the Medeli--not the PC4 so can't be sure if its mechanically the same. If it is, the Medeli seems to have a very thin piece of plastic at the fulcrum point-rather than a true mechanical pivot as typical hammer-actions do. if anyone here can post a pic of the PC4 internal key mechanism-I play every day-have had to major mod these lighter-weight keys as the amount of wear and tear I create seriously deteriorates the actions on these lightweights over time-but the TP40 mechanically-as heavy as it is-and I have a bad back from years of lugging equipment-before I pull the trigger on a PC4-i'd really like to see the keybed internals.
Sorry this is nearly two years behind, but I thought it worthwhile sharing my experience with the Medeli keys (in the SP6, but relevant to PC4 users).
In early 2018 I bought one of the first SP6 units to arrive in the UK and have used it regularly ever since, mainly as a rehearsal board. Last year, when I resumed gigging, I became concerned that if something went awry with the SP6 I'd be in trouble as I'd programmed entire sets into the board, and so I bought another - secondhand, but one that had seen very little use.
Fast forward a few months and I was glad that I had the backup. In February this year I was practicing on my original SP6 and the F# above middle-C broke. I'm not in the least bit technically proficient, but because I had another to fall back on I turned the damaged unit over and proceeded to remove what felt like a hundred screws, all the while concerned that I was going to brick the entire board. Once I had it opened up - a surprisingly straightforward, if tedious, process - I could immediately see the problem. The black key had snapped off at the thin and vulnerable plastic joint where the actual key connects to a kind of small flat plate and "H-shaped" pivot piece.
The black keys were grouped in clusters of five, held by four screws that also secured the accompanying white keys. I had found a video on YT that showed a similar Medeli action being repaired:
With a bit of waggling I was able to remove the damaged section and inspect the damage. I found a small piece of plastic to use as reinforcement, applied some hard-plastic glue and later reassembled the piano. Everything looked and worked fine, but I was concerned that it wouldn't hold for long, particularly as the joint is so flimsy, so I hunted around for replacement keys. The UK distributor agreed to send me a set of black keys for free, which was a nice gesture, although when they arrived I discovered the set had been damaged so that the C# and D# didn't align properly, but the F# and above were fine. What I did then displays my complete DIY incompetence.
I took an old hairdryer and attempted to soften the plastic and bend the keys back into alignment. I succeeded beyond all expectations and melted the plastic pivot into a distorted mess! Although I had actually improved the alignment by a margin, I was worried that I had weakened the structure. By now I was running out of options! As a last-ditch attempt I took out a dremel, cut both the old and new key sections between the D# and F#, and with two screws on each side, refitted the good portions of each cluster. Just to be sure, and because the key groups are interchgangeable across the keyboard, instead of replacing the repaired unit in the middle of the board I swapped it for one near the bottom. It has held fine since then.
One other little anomaly with the action occured yesterday with the newer of my two SP6 units. I had taken it to a rehearsal and suddenly noticed that the B below middle-C had stiffened and was quite difficult to press down. I gave it a good minute or two of hammering and it eased, but it left me a little worried as to what caused it and whether it would return. The only things I could think of were lack of lubricant, one of the plastic sheaths that sit between key and hammer mechanism had shifted (possibly in transport) or a foreign body had become trapped. The latter is unlikely as there was no indication of anything rattling within the casing after the key had been eased. I also think it unlikely that a lack of grease would cause sudden stiffness and equally sudden release, so I'm left thinking that it's probably a loose plastic sheath. When I dismantled the older board, key removal sometimes dislodged a sheath which I had to reposition. It's possible that transport could cause such a problem. I'm reluctant to open up this board as it's a PITA, but will do so if it occurs again. Despite the issues, I still think this is a great board - but maybe Kurzweil could consider the TP110 for lightweight boards in the future.
Pics show the key problems after I'd split the two key clusters (which I placed together for the first photo to show roughly what the cluster looks like when it hasn't been hacked in two!). The F# illustrates my repair of the old unit with glue and reinforcement. The C# details what happened after I tried heat-treatment to bend the replacement unit back into alignment. I didn't think to take photos while I had the SP6 opened up, but the images in the linked video are very similar to what confronted me during the replacement.
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On 3/19/2022 at 11:57 PM, mpn_user7629 said:
I didn't really enjoy playing one too but for a time, it was all I had e-piano wise.
When the pandemic hit In 2020 , I saw a CP-30 outside a closed thrift store. I could have taken it home but said to myself FORGET IT!!!
The CP-30 was my first "proper" electronic piano for gigging. Used it alongside a Wurli, A Hammond X-2, a Korg Delta and a Moog Prodigy. Apart from it being a pig to carry, I actually quite liked its fairly unique sound, which was so much fatter than the CP-20. Way better than the Crumar DP80 I had at one time that I could tweak to get a piano-ish sound on about three notes in one octave, but everything else sounded like some kind of electronic experiment.
Another Crumar I had for a while was the Trilogy. Played it in a theater production alongside someone with an Oberheim OB8. Boy, did I feel like the poor relation! Again, it was good for maybe three or four sounds.
Other lemons: EX-800, Rhodes Suitcase and the Poly-61 that I thought might be as good as the Polysix...
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I've been away from here for a few years after moving continents, just occasionally lurking in the corner and enjoying the really insightful comments on so many aspects of playing keyboards.
My main rig for the past two or three years has consisted of Kurzweil SP6, Roland VR-09, Behringer Crave and MIDI bass pedals, all designed to keep weight and bulk to a minimum. I've cursed the VR for its poor action, lo-res pitch bend, and high-frequency artifacts, but found it much more versatile than an Electro. Having recently got hold of a Vox Continental 61, rather on a whim, I thought I'd chime in here with a few thoughts. At first, having hoped it might replace the VR, I didn't really know what to make of it, as the well-documented limitations (lack of octave assignment, rather clunky patch management, so-so Leslie sim, impossibility of seeing the LEDs in bright sunlight, etc.) had me relegating it to backup and practice. Now, however, I'm finding that the Roland and the Vox actually work well in tandem, despite a large overlap.
The band I'm in is definitely toward the prog end of the spectrum and it requires my aging brain to cope with multiple patch changes throughout quite intensive keyboard parts. Adding the Vox into the mix allows me to reduce the number of changes and assign sounds to the most suited board. Even though there's not too much call for them in what we play, I actually think that, once the NuTube and FX are taken into the equation, the EPs in the Vox are streets ahead of the VR, and in some respects challenge those in the SP6. There are also certain Vox synth and string sounds that outshine both the other boards. On the organ side of things it's not so clearcut, but if I were playing more jazz-oriented material, I'd definitely pick the Vox over the VR. But what really makes this combination work, very surprisingly, is the MIDI implementation in the VR. The Roland allows me to set up a PC control channel per patch that can be different from both upper and lower channels. That has enabled me to program all my "upper board" patch changes into the VR, along with a descriptive name, and use that to instantly select what I need on both boards. No long presses on the Vox to select a different set and no need to remember patch numbers (thank goodness!).
I've yet to use this 3-board combination on a gig, but I'm looking forward to the opportunity, if not the manhandling! The Vox is quirky, but definitely classy, and has actually damped down the desire for a new polysynth, despite its very limited synth capabilities. What it does, it does very well, on the whole, but I echo the call for an OS update, if only to fix the octave assignment issue.
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Thanks voxpops I see the "PC3_V221_UPDATE/Object Lists" folder but it just contains 2 sub directories for BASE OBJECTS & KORE 64 OBJECTS. Inside these are just pdf files and an Excell spreadsheet. There are files in the top level PC3_V221_UPDATE/PC3OB212.PC3 & PC3_V221_UPDATE/XKORE225.PC3 can I assume its one of these files? I'm really only interested in the Solo Alto Sax sound.
Sorry, I should have said Objects file (not folder): PC3OB212.PC3
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Dirshort, you could try the sax patches from the PC3 objects. I'd recommend downloading it anyway - there are some really useful sounds. It's a pain trying to keep it all straight in the SP6, if you don't know what you'll need beforehand, but worth the effort. You just need to download the last PC3 OS file from Kurzweil, and extract the Objects file.
I can't seem to see any references to show how to do this. Does this require the Desktop editor?
No need for the editor. Just download the V2.21 OS for the PC3 from Kurzweil here and then extract and open the folder. You'll find the Objects folder within. That's what you'll need for loading the files - either via USB stick or direct from your computer. You can choose to load the entire set (within remaining SP6 capacity) or select individual objects.
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I understand what Dirshort is saying. I think Kurzweil should take another look at the "optimization" of the APs in the SP6.
Sometimes wishes are granted!
New firmware: Version 1.10. Substantial improvements to the APs, and many of the other bugs addressed. Thanks Kurzweil!
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I understand what Dirshort is saying. I think Kurzweil should take another look at the "optimization" of the APs in the SP6.
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You're welcome, Marillo, Have you considered the VR-09 to add a basic synth section?
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...I've only seen pictures and wondered how people are finding it when it comes to lugging it about - obviously it's lighter so that's a bonus but is it unwieldy to carry? (I have narrow staircases to navigate to my basement rehearsal room!)
It's an 88 and so you need to be aware of length when negotiating tight spaces - it would be easy to bang it into door frames etc., but I'm finding the width (15") no problem. It feels very light, and is easy to move, pack and unpack.
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I've just packed mine up to go to practice and it stands up fine, with a slight lean.
It seems to depend on whether you have anything in the front pockets. I took pedal and power supply out, and the board stayed upright (with that slight lean), but the extra couple of pounds is enough to tip the balance.
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Just bought the GKB-88 SLIM, and it is a very snug fit. I'm going to leave the keyboard in it for a few days to allow the material to stretch and take form - as much as it can. Still topples over, but I think the wedges may help. I don't think there'll be a better off-the-shelf solution.
Quick comment to Frank. I've owned an MP5, MP6 and MP7. Those are all great boards, and the MP7 gives the SP6 a run for its money. But in terms of weight, analogue synth sounds and overall flexibility, the SP6 wins for me. Add in the Forte SE pack, the old PC3 sounds and DW's additional tweaks, and you have a killer board for the money, IMO.
Still needs a few bug fixes, but they're minor.
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Thanks jpkeys, the Gator sounds like the best fit.
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One thing to be aware of is that you can't stand the SP6 on its back in a soft case. The angled (raked) back means that the keyboard will always fall forward onto keys and knobs! I am going to try using a couple of foam wedges in the case to see if that helps.
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What are you guys who are gigging with the SP6 using for a soft case?
I got a Stagg K18-150 sent to me when I purchased the keyboard. It's too long and a little too wide, but due to the SP6's front to rear depth, there aren't too many cases that'll fit. It'll do until I find something with a snugger fit. Maybe it would squeeze into a CP4 roller case???
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*How are you finding doing basic editing? You mentioned adding more attack to some string patches - this should be easily done with the front panel knobs. This would be useful for say, the string figure in the chorus of Comfortably Numb?
Yes, basic editing is pretty easy, and the front panel knobs are handy. As I pointed out, there are a couple of bugs in the software, but knowing Kurzweil's record on these issues, I would expect an updated OS before too long.
I haven't had to edit the strings yet, as I found just what I needed among the huge number of PC3 string patches.
*You mentioned good synth/lead sounds...could you expand on this? (this would be great for the above-referenced 'Frankenstein'...the MX-49 patch doesn't really have that liquid analogue sound). Is it actually virtual analogue in the SP-6?I believe that the SP6 has the VAST engine, which is a VA synth. With the forthcoming editor, I'd imagine that you could edit most parameters to suit. There are a few good analogue-type sounds in the SP6, and a bunch more in the PC3 pack. Dave Weiser's custom patches add another handful. What's good is that there is a thickness and presence that suggests analogue much better than say the VA synth in the VR-09.
*Is it possible to route the KB3 to a second board? I wondered if could use the SP-6 midi'd to an upper board just for organ?How are you finding the KB3 programs? I think this is where I'd lose out if I sold the Electro 5D. Although I'd then consider an SP-6 with maybe a HX3 module above it.
If you mean playing the KB3 organs from a second board, I'd imagine you could if you use the correct MIDI channel. This is not something I've been able to try yet, so I'm just guessing.
*The bottom-end piano thing isn't such a worry for me since I wouldn't be using it solo...if anything I avoid the bottom end so as not to clash with our bass player.I think that's partly the ethos behind a lot of Kurz sounds - they're designed for ensemble work rather than solo.
*How are you living with the form factor/weight of the SP6?Haven't moved it out of the studio yet, but I'm hoping that, despite the bulk, it'll be easy to move around. Just hope it holds up!
Thanks in advance!You're welcome!
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One suggestion I have for SP6 owners is to download the Forte SE extra packs. Within the pianos is an updated (using the SE/SP6 extra effects resources) version of the old Horowitz Grand. That is one great sounding piano, and it plays well, too. It may be, at heart, an old triple-strike program, but it demonstrates what the updated engine is capable of. I really think that the new SP6 pianos could benefit enormously from expert reprogramming. A 9ft. grand should have a huge bottom end - not a wimpy, nasal poke!
New Studiologic Numa X Piano
in The Keyboard Corner
Posted
I just received my new Numa X Piano 73 today. I immediately updated the firmware to 2.2.0. Within a couple of minutes I noticed the random noises. To be honest, I was a bit disappointed as it should have been picked up pretty easily during testing. I haven't studied the setup menu yet so haven't seen the pedal anomaly. As for the Mk 1 softest layer, I only have an earlier video to compare mine to, but did notice that the quiet "thunk" of tine harmonics wasn't apparent in my version. I would assume that these issues will be addressed soon as the problem of random noises makes the piano unusable for performances.
Having only had a short time to play around with it my conclusions about the piano are very tentative. However (firmware issues aside), I concur with those who have praised the overall tone and response of the Rhodes iterations. They have a fullness and richness to them and are very enjoyable to play. The "Wurly" variations are not quite to the same standard in my opinion, and also the random noises were very apparent when playing the Wurly, but otherwise they are quite usable.
As for the APs, I haven't really found one that wows me yet. Someone described them as all having a kind of "tang." I know what he means, and also noticed the rather swift initial decay to most of them. I haven't tried to tweak them yet, so maybe they'll grow on me. The other sounds seem like a mixed bag; effects seem to be of good quality.
I found the keys a bit slippery, but maybe they're just very new. For a lightweight action it responds quite well. All told it seems like it could be a useful board - and is very easy to manhandle. The YC73 I had for a few days (it was faulty, so I returned it) was much more difficult to grasp due to rounded edges.
The jury's out at the moment, but it will be interesting to get better acquainted with it.
*Does anyone know if there's a way to download FW 2.1 as it doesn't seem to be available on the Studiologic site? (I assume the firmware can be downgraded from 2.2. to 2.1 via the Numa Manager.)*