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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3017546 11/27/19 01:24 AM
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Yes, I would have liked a multieffect, patch memory and all the other stuff we are all talking about.

At the same time, just imagine if this would have been the very first Behringer clone, a couple of years ago... a great-sounding Mini clone with *four* oscillators, keyboard, a sequencer, chorus, distortion, high pass filter, LFO etc. - for $699.....!!!

Feel better already? grin


KC Island
Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: analogika] #3017548 11/27/19 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by analogika
I was loving it, but when Nick turned up the emphasis at 17:35 and it lost most of the bottom end, I had a sad.


I´d say this is how MOOG ladder LP filters worked since ages.

I owned 3 Minimoog D, a Moog Source and a Moog Taurus 1,- and they all did more or less.
Still own 1 Minimoog D ...

Dunno how Memorymoog behaved though.

A.C.

Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: TechEverlasting] #3017549 11/27/19 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by TechEverlasting
I'm not sure if I'll want to spring for one of these or not. For the work I do the ability to save and load patches is essential, so I've already got a pair of Roland SE-02s which are awesome.

Nevertheless this is a really tempting toy and an amazing value of $699.00. I don't understand how anyone could look at this little miracle and come up with anything critical to say, I just hope Behringer keeps it up.


There will come more sooner or later.
Street price isn´t most important IMO ...
I´m not interested in paraphonic synths and wait until they come up w/ real polysynths offering preset memory.
Then I´ll see if those will be stable and reliable ...

There are enough monophonic synths out there, w/ keyboards or MIDI/CV modules ...

A.C.

Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3017595 11/27/19 01:53 PM
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I DO want to try one..... emphasis on “try”. After seeing the construction on the Boddy, I have high hopes. Didn’t care for the Boog, but I’m willing to give this a shot, although, as an old MiniMoog head, I felt disconcerted when, upon watching the SonicState vid, Nick lifted up that skinny azz panel and my thought bubble was “ I hope it doesn’t sound as thin as that panel”.
I’m just used to that thick Mini Chassis! LOL!


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3017795 11/29/19 01:40 AM
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I find myself wanting it because it is full sized and looks and sounds like a minimoog which I've wanted for 40 years.

My conundrum is, I have a mono/poly which is fine for studio.
For live I have a reface CS, which is actually 8 voice polyphonic, has memory via iOS device, and honestly sounds pretty damned good, and once you get used to them the keys are fine for mono synth type playing.
Also the panel is so smartly streamlined that even without patch memory, it's very useable live.

So really....I just always wanted a minimoog. It's gonna be $1000 Canadian though, and since it's not on the "need" end of things, it would be a tough sell for the wife.
If it had patch memory, I'd risk the argument with the wife!


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3017796 11/29/19 02:19 AM
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Made me laugh.

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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3017886 11/30/19 09:49 AM
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Dumb.

Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: marino] #3017908 11/30/19 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by marino
Originally Posted by Tusker
So to me, that leaves jam bands, electronic ensembles (or solo acts)... people who have the stage space for an additional one patch instrument, albeit with a huge sound. Add a lunchbox modular and feed the CV's on the back and it's quite a nice component of a modular rig. This instrument would work well for one of my jam band gigs where sonic exploration is desired but the synth plays the same role in every song.

You forgot the keyboard virtuoso from the prog era, able to change settings very quickly while playing, or in pauses: People like Patrick Moraz, Kerry Minnear, Vittorio Nocenzi... and for really complex reprogramming, you could always include a guitar or drum solo in the arrangement. grin


Absolutely, I didn't mention them and should have. laugh

It's just that in my neck of the woods, there is a demand for general noisemaking in jam bands, and not nearly as much in prog. I grew up with Emerson and am still completely in awe of his modular sound design on the fly. His genius didn't merely apply to the sound-design and orchestration, but also the choreography of sonic tricks without a complete patch memory system.

Here's to the trail blazers. cheers

Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: Tusker] #3017920 11/30/19 04:53 PM
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Of course Tony Banks had Peter Gabriel making up stories and ad-libbing songs to entertain the audience while Tony changed settings.

Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3017921 11/30/19 05:03 PM
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Tony didn't have to change many settings... his main synth back then was the Pro Soloist... presets! Emerson et al ameliorated the patch change problem by having multiple synths. A second Minimoog meant less patch changing on the one.


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3017990 12/01/19 12:00 AM
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The new Poly D is an interesting instrument. The comment that the body of the panel was "thin" may have been in jest, but i could be that the use of Surface Mount components could be the reason that it is not a big WIDE Body Mini Moog. The Build Quality looks excellent. On the surface, the instrument sounds good, it does lack Sync, and of course, no Patch memory. All my KB's have patch memory, except my original Arp Odyssey Mark III. But then, I have the original manual I got with the synth when I bought it, and if I ever hook up my Studio Master Mixer to my PA again, I intend to play around with the Arp for kicks and giggles. There are a large number of programs in the manual to set up on the Arp, and I could amuse myself for a few days, playing around with it, its been a long time since I have turned my equipment on at all.


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: AnotherScott] #3018003 12/01/19 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Tony didn't have to change many settings... his main synth back then was the Pro Soloist... presets!

^ This! Tony was the Pro Soloist King. And it was an absolutely great decision at the time, IMO. The Pro Soloist sounds fantastic, and is a live-performance workhorse. From each preset, there's enough control to get a very good range of sounds, but at a fraction of the "dial in time". If behringer came out with a ProSoloist clone, I'd be there in a heartbeat. No idea how ARP 2600 performers got by. Joe Zowinul is probably my favorite keyboardist of all time, but I have NO IDEA how he navigated the 2600 in a live set, that thing is a BEAST. Obviously he had a couple, but still, he must have been FLYING on that thing to get it locked in. Mini and Odyssey are a lot more manageable, but still a pain. 2600 is nuts!


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3018007 12/01/19 02:47 AM
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I dunno, it didn't seem that hard to me when I was rocking a modular live. You just know your synth well enough that you program as much in advance as possible, and learn to twist the knobs with precision to do the rest.

Regarding the comment about Emerson's modular - he had enough hardware that he had 3 basic patches going so no patch cables were changed during a show. He would turn up the particular voice he was using, and twist a couple of knobs maybe, but the majority of the control voltages came from a custom module which had presets.

Turn up a few mixer channels to bring in oscillators tuned to differing octaves, tweak the filter cutoff and resonance, maybe change an attack and decay or two, and you can drastically change the sound in the space of a few seconds. I used to be quite adept at it, but wouldn't want to have to do it now in my senior years...


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: mate stubb] #3018013 12/01/19 03:49 AM
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For the Pink Floyd tribute band I'm in, I use my Multimoog for totally self indulgent reasons. There's something exciting about having to set things up quickly, on the fly and tweak as you go. Granted, it's not practical on everything, but I think a keyboardist who has never gigged with a synth that has no patch memory has missed out. Kinda like playing a Hammond sound with no drawbars.

I'm pretty jazzed about the Poly D. Will probably get one at some point.


Somehow I manage to con people into paying me to play with toys that make noise.
Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: Tusker] #3018023 12/01/19 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tusker
in my neck of the woods, there is a demand for general noisemaking in jam bands, and not nearly as much in prog.

Well, I didn't imply that a synth without patch memory could only be used in a prog context... just that it *is* possible, within certain limits, to tweak a Minimoog-style synth in real time. That's how I started, and as other have stated, it's a unique and immersive experience.

Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3018027 12/01/19 08:07 AM
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No such implication taken. smile

Agreed, It’s close to 100% sweet spot. I’m not playing Floyd, which would be a terrific fun gig. I am playing Zappa, and on some nights I screw up a tweak a bit and the Moog makes it ok.

Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: mate stubb] #3018041 12/01/19 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mate stubb
Regarding the comment about Emerson's modular - he had enough hardware that he had 3 basic patches going so no patch cables were changed during a show. He would turn up the particular voice he was using, and twist a couple of knobs maybe, but the majority of the control voltages came from a custom module which had presets.

That's a good point. I don't remember seeing Emerson spend much time between songs adjusting synths. Between the two Minimoogs, and the modular which probably had enough modules to, itself, have multiple sounds "pre-patched" and able to be brought up at any time, he could easily have had 5 sounds ready to go without having to change a patch... and in those pre-CS80 days, 5 synth sounds could probably pretty much get him through the gig. By pre-patched, I mean, send some oscillators to a given filter and set of envelope and mixer input, while others go to others... and then your mixer module alone brings patches in and out as needed, which I think is the same as what you're saying. But I'm curious about your mention of a custom module which had presets... are you sure the modular had that? And in the scenario we're talking about, is it even needed?


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: AnotherScott] #3018043 12/01/19 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
But I'm curious about your mention of a custom module which had presets... are you sure the modular had that? And in the scenario we're talking about, is it even needed?


Yes and yes. smile

There is a link above of Gene Stopp describing how Keith Emerson relied on the three approaches you mention.

1) presets,
2) a pre-fixed architecture and
3) live tweaking.

Clearly the link wan't visible enough, lol. laugh So here it is ....


link


"Ow! Twist my arm! Oh okay. Here goes: first, see the chapter in Mark Vail's "Vintage Synthesizers" book about this machine if you want physical details about what's where. Okay, the main console near the bottom has all the main sound-producing modules in it. First there are three VCO's, each made from a 921A Oscillator Driver/921B Oscillator Slave pair. Now traditionally there are two or three 921B's for each 921A, but in here it's different. Under the VCO's are two CV routing/Mixer console panels (model = Console Panel #3). VCO 1 and 2 are controlled by the CV routing on the leftmost one, and VCO 3 is by itself on the CV routing of the rightmost one. Each CV routing panel has four switches on it, for switch control of system-wide CV's to control the attached VCO's. On this system, CV1 is the keyboard, CV2 is the ribbon controller, CV3 the the output of the sample & hold, and CV4 is external (separate per panel on a 1/4" jack). The VCF a few modules over also has a CV routing panel, except on this one CV4-external is a voltaged-controlled reversible attenuator that is controlled by the programmer upstairs as well as the panel knob. All of these CV routing panels as well as the S-trigger routing panels are an important part of live sound changes - I'll get back to these later.

The Mixers in the two console panels under the VCO's are voltage-controlled by the programmer upstairs with Vac-Tecs. The sawtooth outputs of the VCO's go to one mixer, and the square outputs plus noise go to the other. Both mixer outputs go to the VCF (which is modded for multiple inputs). The output of the VCF goes to a VCA and envelope generator to provide the main lead sound output. The sine wave output of VCO 3 bypasses the VCF and goes to its own VCA and envelope generator. Another envelope generator goes to the VCF reversible attenuator mentioned above, and yet another envelope generator goes to the CV4 input on the console panel that controls VCO's 1 and 2. All envelope times are controlled by the programmer upstairs, with Vac-Tecs on the time constant pots, so you have to turn them all up or else the front panel will override the programmability.

The envelope generator that sweeps VCO's 1 and 2 is used for the "Hoedown" sound - some attack, all sustain, no release. The program for this sound must be selected - VCO 1 tuned to the root, VCO 2 tuned to the fifth, VCO 3 tuned to the root and not swept by the envelope because it's on a different console panel CV routing thing. This envelope, with a different patch, is also used in "Aquatarkus" live for the falling tone thing, with attack = zero, sustain = 0, and decay = long.

Keith had a certain technique to get his long climbing pitch sweeps. The trick is to start at the low end of the keyboard, turn portamento up all the way, and then "walk" up the keys slowly. You can't just hit a low key then a high one, because since this is exponential portamento the pitch will just zoom up. This way he controlled the slow climb rate. Also he played legato but lifted keys enough to cause S-trigger glitches which would fire off the envelopes randomly during the climb.

We can use "Aquatarkus" live (I think it's on side 3 of the vinyl version of "Welcome Back My Friends...") to demonstrate all this stuff. First, assume VCO's 1, 2, & 3 into the VCF into the VCA, no modulation, all EG times = 0, all sustains = max, VCO 3 sinewave VCA/EG off (via console panel S-trig switch). Then:

*Beginning of song, organ intro, synth lead with VCO's tuned root-fourth-fifth.

* Change preset to VCO unison w/filter sweep

* Guitar chord/feedback during synth silence for re-configuration - disconnect VCO's 1 and 2 from all CV's so they sit at a low droning fifth interval, sample & hold at low sample rate through heavy lag randomly changing the VCF cutoff for a background "WWOOOOWWW" effect, VCO 3 sine wave solo turned on to play over this. The sample & hold also slowly triggers the main sound envelope, which has a long release, so that the drone is sustained. This goes on for a while, sine wave theme is from Dick Hyman's "Minotour", I believe.

* Solo ends, short silence while VCO's 1 and 2 are re-connected to CV1, the sample & hold infulence on the VCF and S-triggers is shut off, and delayed vibrato is added from some modules in the expansion cabinet above the main one (921 VCO at low frequency, gate-delayed envelope generator and mod depth VCA) and the patch is changed to VCO's in unison with the filter wide open and envelope times zero.

* Modular and Minimoog played together, in the typical Emerson "stretch both arms out and play two keyboards across from each other at the same time" style. The Minimoog is on top of the Hammond L-100, across from the C3/Modular setup.

* Solo gets a little delayed while "Hoedown" envelope generator is kicked in on VCO 1 and 2 CV4, set for attack = 0 and long falling decay, and portamento is set to max for the "walk up the keyboard". The EG fires off once in a while during the climb.

* VCO 1 and 2 EG mod turned off, solo ends. You may notice that the vibrato gets left on all the way to the end of the song.

Okay now it may appear that I have devoted my entire waking life to the pursuit of figuring out old ELP solos, but that's not the case! Believe me! I just happen to remember all of this from about five years ago. Okay I'll go on.

Regarding the ribbon controller - flip on CV2 on all console panels and the ribbon controller takes over. Oh yeah don't forget to enable it on the S-trig panel as well or the thing won't make any noise. Anyway during the ribbon controller solo in "Tarkus" (side 2, after "Stones of Years", I forget the name of the part) there's some "ray gun" noises produced by the ribbon controller - the pitch starts high and falls rapidly like repeated envelope triggers with attack = 0, decay = tiny, and sustain = 0. Here's the real story:

On the Moog 956 Ribbon Controller there is plastic coating on the metal ribbon to insulate it to keep the holding capacitor charge from being discharged by your finger so the pitch doesn't droop. Well on Keith's ribbon there is a gouge take out of the insulation about 7/8 of the way up, so if you touch this part the pitch will fall as the cap gets discharged through your finger. If you're comfortably sitting in a nice cozy living room playing the Moog it will discharge slowly. If you're on stage under hot lights sweating like a pig it will discharge quite rapidly. Press the ribbon down to the current strip and then let it up but keep your finger on the ribbon, and this is the effect. Now I don't know it this insulation was scraped away intentionally or if the ribbon got run over by a road case one day....

There's a few other things, like the sequencers controlling another voice made out of modules above the main console, or more esoteric FM effects, that are more subject to speculation so I can't be specific about those patches. I could ask Keith about it but 1) he probably won't remember and 2) he probably doesn't WANT to remember. One does get sick of things after a while, after all, even big Moogs.

Alright enough typing for now. Hope this was interesting....

- Gene
gstopp@fibermux.com"




Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: EricBarker] #3018165 12/02/19 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by EricBarker
Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Tony didn't have to change many settings... his main synth back then was the Pro Soloist... presets!

^ This! Tony was the Pro Soloist King. And it was an absolutely great decision at the time, IMO. The Pro Soloist sounds fantastic, and is a live-performance workhorse. From each preset, there's enough control to get a very good range of sounds, but at a fraction of the "dial in time". If behringer came out with a ProSoloist clone, I'd be there in a heartbeat.

+1 on this. The Soloist, ProSoloist, and ProDGX were part of a small but vital class of synths in the early 1970s: small, portable analog monosynths with built-in presets, basic tweakability, and left-hand controls and keyboards designed for really expressive playing. Other examples include the Korg Sigma and Moog Multimoog and Minitmoog.

One other feature they all have in common is that the keyboards are not velocity-sensitive but do have pressure sensors (what Moog called the Force Bar). When playing an analog synth, I would much rather have this than velocity and no pressure, and I regard all synths with velocity and no pressure as non-starters. But then, I'm weird. grin


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3018215 12/03/19 12:29 AM
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It is one gorgeous thing to my eyes.

I have the Deepmind 12 I got new for 515usd, I think. It is so awesome. Great build and fantastic variety of modulation. I bought it after looking all over for the best "first synth"---something good but based on fundamentals. I play with it every day, helped by a million tutorials on Y-tube. Very addicting....

For a lead synth I ordered the new gen-8 Stylophone--but don't have it yet. It's more in the "Neutron" category. Build the best 2019 analog without a worry to copy.

But I did just order a RD-8, also so Behringer hasn't lost me.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Behringer's biggest victim is plugin coders, not the current incarnations of the guys who made these back in the day. And of course they are grabbing a bigger piece of the whole pie.

But they have created a whole new line of standalone electronic instruments almost all of us can afford. A "Real Moog" will always be just that. Behringer in a way is making that point--I doubt we will ever see used prices fall for something like this, but SH-101, I think used prices have fallen.

I've heard so many great musicians rave about the 101, I think I might get one of them before a Poly D or D or Neutron.

It's springtime in analogworld.

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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3018267 12/03/19 04:19 PM
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what does paraphonic really mean?? .. this new synth may meet my gig needs .. but still confused over the difference between para and poly (do know that paraphonic uses the one VCF , eg , etc .. so there is no re-triggering, etc) ... but if I play a 4 note chord in a paraphonic situation ... does that mean that each note of that chord is just one of the 4 ocsilators and thus will sound in accordance to however that osc is configured ???


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3018274 12/03/19 05:31 PM
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So, REAL synths are analog, but being able to call up a preset is a digital capability. How hard / expensive is it to implement preset capability, is that why many of these new synths from B are no presets boards?

As a keyboard player with little analog synth experience, its a no-brainer to have presets, of course everyone would want them. Was surprised to read in this thread that many prefer the no preset boards, but of course you could have presets and just not use them. For the rest of us, not having presets is a definite no-buy.


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3018278 12/03/19 05:55 PM
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Imagine a simple volume pot. Turning it changes the resistance and modifies the signal. Now suppose you want to be able to save and recall a position. Now instead of just a simple pot directly affecting the signal, you need a voltage controlled amplifier to change the volume. The pot sweeps a control voltage, which feeds a A/D converter so that it can be sampled and stored into a memory location for later recall. That value is then put through a D/A converter to convert back to a voltage to control the VCA that replaced the original volume pot, and hopefully the new circuit sounds and responds the same as when it was just a pot.

By comparison, a digital synth is already basically just software. Changing a patch just means a lime of code to change the value of a bunch of variables.


Dan

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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: Randelph] #3018281 12/03/19 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Randelph
So, REAL synths are analog, but being able to call up a preset is a digital capability. How hard / expensive is it to implement preset capability
It's an interesting question. I think it depends on just how analog the analog board is. There are analog boards that have DCOs (digitally controlled oscillators, instead of voltage controlled oscillators), and there are analog boards that have digital envelopes, and creating presets for those things would be easy. But the more "analog" your components are, the less you can create digital preset recall for them. So you can design your analog moog-alike with digitally controlled oscillators and envelopes and give it presets, but a purist might say, well, then it's no longer a true Minimoog design, you're changing a lot of the internal circuitry. Maybe this is some of the difference between the Behringer D and the Roland SE-02.

The CS80 was analog with a handful of presets, but each preset was a miniature panel duplicating all the sliders... even the presets were defined by physical, analog controls. The Oberheim SEM modules had an available preset module, but it was limited in what it could control, and IIRC, didn't actually store "settings" for the attached analog components, but "offsets" for them. I've mentioned the Minimoog preset box that was made by Sequential Circuits, which sent out different voltages to the Mini's CV ins and replaced the Mini's envelopes with its own. (A voltage controlled filter can't directly respond to a digital preset command, but you could create a digital preset box that, in turn, could be programmed to send different voltages to the VCF.) So there have been creative ways to do it, but to answer your question, not easily, cheaply, or completely, depending on just how "analog" your synth design is to begin with.

I'm at the edge of my own knowledge on this one, so if I got something wrong here, I expect someone will chime in...


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3018288 12/03/19 06:28 PM
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So, it might, for example, add $100 to the price of these all analog synths with no presets, once R&D, components and extra assembly costs are also factored in. A compelling reason for B to stick to no preset design on some of their synths. And it makes sense that digital DCOs and VCFs could slightly change your interaction with a sound as you encounter the built-in limitation of digital with its staircase stepping of values.

Thanks for the overviews!


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3018291 12/03/19 06:42 PM
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Actually an ordinary JFET does a pretty good imitation of a resistor if you tickle it right. Bipolar transistors can be used in a pinch, but JFETs are a better match.

Note that I haven't got a schematic for, say, the Moog Voyager to see how they actually implemented their patch memory. I've been inside my Voyagers while tuning them, but didn't think to look at the rest of the circuit while I was in there. Tuning the things took up all the time I had available that day.

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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: scottasin] #3018296 12/03/19 07:20 PM
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Presetifying an analogue synth requires lots of separate VCAs at the control points, not just simple resistors.


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Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: mate stubb] #3018298 12/03/19 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mate stubb
Presetifying

I like this word. wink


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: So. The Poly D. [Re: mate stubb] #3018315 12/03/19 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mate stubb
I dunno, it didn't seem that hard to me when I was rocking a modular live. You just know your synth well enough that you program as much in advance as possible, and learn to twist the knobs with precision to do the rest.
Back then, we did what we did because there wasn't any alternative... we were all in the same boat in terms of having to tweak knobs between songs. My band knew which songs required an extra few seconds of preparation. Making synth adjustments between songs was an intrinsic skill and just as important as the notes we played.

And then there were songs that required knob tweaking, with a spare hand, while we were playing. It was just part of the job.

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