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Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: PianoMan51] #3003320 08/15/19 05:54 AM
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in a perfect world your view re intellectual property would ring true. However, as so many entrepreneurs find out the hard way, a patent means absolutely nothing without the means to defend it.

KC Island
Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: Synthoid] #3003324 08/15/19 06:55 AM
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Did I miss something? Is ARP still in business and producing the Odyssey? Who is being harmed? There is no patent violation. Does everybody who makes a Hammond clone fall into this category? Is it only acceptable to buy from Hammond and nobody else because they all stole Hammond's intellectual property? And Hammond is still in business making products.


Dan

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Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: Jim Alfredson] #3003328 08/15/19 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Alfredson
I really don't see the point. What sounds and music can't you make with this that you can't make on anything else?

And I also really don't like Behringer, especially since they tried to sue Dave Smith, who is a hero. Friends don't let friends support a company like that.


See recordings of George Duke, Patrick Moraz, Tom Coster, Herbie Hancock, not to mention the Cars and Ultravox.
NO other synth can ACCURATELY reproduce those sounds and textures.

I wasn’t happy about their Model D when Moog still had the Model D reissue available, plus I thought the quality was subpar.
And my intuition is borne out by this quote from Matthew Higdon at MLaw:

“If Moog were to approach me I would say they may well have a case in passing off because it’s their reputation that is still existent. Behringer are effectively leveraging Moog’s reputation to promote their own products. It’s not quite as clear cut as Behringer are setting it out, and I think that it’s probably Behringer’s size that would intimidate the opposition, not the strength of their case.”


But the reports on the Oddy so far are good.

Normally, I would agree, but I am curious about this one

I didn’t know about DSI, Jim.

Last edited by jimkost2002; 08/15/19 10:23 AM.

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Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: Jim Alfredson] #3003358 08/15/19 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Alfredson
I got that list from the MUSIC Tribe website.

Oh, I see it now. I guess they haven't updated the other sites. And perhaps Auratone is "hiding" their ownership. I thought their use of "family owned" was a little fuzzy.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: jimkost2002] #3003363 08/15/19 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jimkost2002

See recordings of George Duke, Patrick Moraz, Tom Coster, Herbie Hancock, not to mention the Cars and Ultravox.


debatable IMO ...

They used what was available at that time and those being still alive and active, don´t use the vintage gear much, at least not for gigging.

Originally Posted by jimkost2002

NO other synth can ACCURATELY reproduce those sounds and textures.


Don´t forget, as always w/ analog gear, there was also the preamp/console and other outboard gear in a recording situation, as also amplification when gigging.
I also remember in recordings it was often a mix of DI into console and miced amp/cab ...
I really doubt you´ll hear a "puristic" Odyssey, Minimoog or Oberheim in any recording.

Originally Posted by jimkost2002

... the reports on the Oddy so far are good.


Yes !
And even I think there are devices out there nailing the sound good (enough),- I also think this product is a nice toy to play with,- especially at that pricepoint.

According the Music Group/Behringer:
You cannot stop progress.
They grew up big, made big money and are global players.
I remember times where such success in biz was part of the american dream,- no ?
In fact they are able buying DSI and others w/ ease when they want.

All the idealistic companies, Sequential, Oberheim and others included, went south long time before.
It was nice they existed and were innovative and we got great toys (at steep pricepoints),- but they didn´t survive, period.

DSI came back, got their trademark "Sequential" back, but still cannot do mass production like MusicGroup can.
It´s all law of supply ...

I guess even if the build quality of these new vintage gear clones might be good (by current standards),- there will be something quality wise making those products cheap.
There´s the production process in china as well as todays electronic components which might be not very reliable when cheap enough.
I still guess when buying a 3k bucks DSI/ Sequential product,- it promises better reliability.
So, it´s up to the musician what to buy and what not.
Most musicians cannot afford 3k bucks products w/ ease,- so that´s the market for B.

And it´s good they exist because there´s more movement in the market.
I also remember when we payed many thousands of dollars for flagship synths in the past, they were partially crappy manufactured too,- or at least there were some unreliable and dead on cheap parts inside.
I had a lot of problems when touring w/ my 1st Prophet rev2 as also w/ my OB-8 and when we look inside the gear from 40 years ago today, we often get pale recognizing the poor quality and are happy finding a mod making it better.

Already in the past they knew "sound" is the main attraction, not quality ... and when it sounded good at the moment, they were able to sell electronic scrap for big money and they did !
Gear coming from idealistic boutique companies running their production in a garage doesn´t mean is excellent just because it´s expensive.

Anyway ...
Prodyssey is a very good ARP Odyssey emulation which I love when I want preset memory and more MIDI CC compatibility than just only notes.
It sounds much better in real than the 128 kbps compressed demos ...
I own XITE and use it.

But,- it costs 166,- EUR, needs the expensive DSP hardware and I miss the haptics incl. keyboard which I prefer when programming patches,- and now I can buy a hardware Odyssey for around 400,-.
So what ?
Don´t try or buy because businessmen I don´t know in person, fight and sue each other all day and/or are famous pioneers and "heroes" ???
Do they pay my living because they are heroes for me ?

Except KORG no other manufacturer offers this synth in hardware and I expect it to be slightly better than the KORG version,- not only because of the full size keyboard for much lower price.
So it´s worth a try IMO,- probably a no-brainer when someone really wants it.

A.C.

Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: Synthoid] #3003615 08/17/19 01:54 AM
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I have an original mkII Odyssey. It's cool but those sounds can be made quite easily on modern gear.

Regarding Hammond clones, it's not the cloning I object to per se, it is the litigious nature of Behringer themselves. Suing DSI for bullshit 'defamation' is absolutely ridiculous. You can spend your money how you want but I will never support the company or it's subsidiaries again. And when people ask me (which they do often), I suggest alternatives. For example, someone just asked me about the X32 and I suggested the Presonus StudioLive series instead.

Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: Synthoid] #3003655 08/17/19 01:05 PM
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Seems to sound *very* close to the original, probably moreso than the Korg version.
Damn. grin

Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: marino] #3003728 08/17/19 10:13 PM
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I watched and listened to a review of the Behringer Odyssey by Jamie from GeoSynth. That man reviews all the keyboards his owns and Posts on youtube. Jamie also owns the mini key Korg Odyssey in addition to the new Behringer rendition. Jamie said the case is solid, all metal, and he was impressed with the build quality. The unit sounded great, and I like the implementation of "all 3 filters" from all three models of the odyssey. He said that the Behringer is a bit more aggressive than the Karp, and sounds a bit brighter. He found it easy to play and prefers that full size Behringer over the Karp. Janie said his sausage fingers made the Karp more difficult to play.

One thing that no one else has mentioned in the reviews I read is that Behringer put the keyboard all the way in the case, unlike the Odyssey Mark III that I bought back in the seventies and still have in my music room. The keys on the original hang out like a diving board outside the case. I remembers seeing Arp Odysseys with broken keys owned by players that didn't invest in a case. Totally stupid. All my keyboards get a case or they don't move out of the house, Unless Behringer runs into QC problems with their Odyssey, it looks like a winner.

I don't know how they can sell it so cheap and make any real money.



Mike T.

Last edited by MikeT156; 08/17/19 11:07 PM.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.
Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: MikeT156] #3003783 08/18/19 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeT156

I don't know how they can sell it so cheap and make any real money. .


A lot of people like to bash on Behringer for copying designs, as if this is just a knockoff of an Odyssey. Obviously, they managed to make it SOUND and FUNCTION the same, but it's not built the sam, and can be made affordable. Part of the engineering and in ovation that people overlook, mostly because it's behind the curtain and they don't see or understand it, is the engineering that comes into the PRODUCTION of a product. Everything from board layout and parts selection, to manufacturing equipment, considerations of CAPEX vs OPEX expense based on run rates and the market. They aren't just "making them cheap", they are finding ways to minimize cost while producing a solid product. That takes good engineering.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: J. Dead] #3017089 11/22/19 06:58 PM
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Odyssey now shipping, price has gone up from $499 to $588. Anyone play one or buy one yet?


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: davedoerfler] #3017094 11/22/19 07:42 PM
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I'm in the UK and got mine in September. They have been shipping in Europe for months. I owned an original MK3 which I sold 10 years ago. The Behringer does exactly what my old one did - my favourite patches sound the same to me. Very happy with it.

Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: J. Dead] #3017109 11/22/19 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dead
Originally Posted by MikeT156

I don't know how they can sell it so cheap and make any real money. .


A lot of people like to bash on Behringer for copying designs, as if this is just a knockoff of an Odyssey. Obviously, they managed to make it SOUND and FUNCTION the same, but it's not built the sam, and can be made affordable. Part of the engineering and in ovation that people overlook, mostly because it's behind the curtain and they don't see or understand it, is the engineering that comes into the PRODUCTION of a product. Everything from board layout and parts selection, to manufacturing equipment, considerations of CAPEX vs OPEX expense based on run rates and the market. They aren't just "making them cheap", they are finding ways to minimize cost while producing a solid product. That takes good engineering.

Also, building synths is a personal thing for Uli Behringer, apparently.

Music Tribe is so huge and so diverse that they can afford to sell their reissues at close to cost, or take a risk introducing them. They're not releasing them to rake in huge profits, though they're obviously built to make (some) money.

Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: analogika] #3017148 11/23/19 10:36 AM
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Behringer can also keep costs down by using the same form factor for these synths - I think the case for the Neutron, K2 and Pro 1 are the same size. Stuff like the wooden(?) end cheeks all fit the new modules. And I'm sure there will be other common areas of manufacture. It's interesting to note that since the Deep Mind 6 was released in 2017 Behringer have only release 2 full size synth clones with keyboards. During the last 12 months they have releasesd 6 synth modules as well as Roland drum and bass machines.

What MileT156 says in interesting and I have to agree. Quality engineering and much better turned out than my original odyssey. They probably weigh the same but the Behringer Ody might be slightly heavier as the metal casing seems thicker than the original. Keyboard action is better too and the keys don't stick out over the edge of the chassis either. I also have a Neutron and a Model D - both are excellent.

Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: Synthoid] #3017149 11/23/19 11:41 AM
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With the recent releases of so many synths, modules, mixers, etc., Behringer is in a unique position to gather marketing intelligence. The higher sales volume of lower-priced products should deliver granular customer preference metrics and also reveal which of their products are the winners and losers. It's interesting to watch this happen in real time.

Mike Kovins, may he rest in peace, was a genius at synth marketing. He is sadly missed - a terrific guy. In the early 1980s, when I started at KORG, Mike tracked every customer metric he could from sales, warranty cards, customer calls, etc.. Today's internet is whole new ball game.

Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: analogika] #3017153 11/23/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by analogika
Originally Posted by J. Dead
[quote=MikeT156]
I don't know how they can sell it so cheap and make any real money. .


Music Tribe is so huge and so diverse that they can afford to sell their reissues at close to cost, or take a risk introducing them. They're not releasing them to rake in huge profits, though they're obviously built to make (some) money.


I have worked in business, either running my family business, and later, managing businesses for other people. Our family business was in manufacturing, although not electronics, we had to buy and maintain the equipment to make the products, have a building to operate, pay reasonable wages, benefits, insurance, TAXES, just to keep the lights on, We employed 65 people at the peak of the operation, and every employee was counting on getting a pay check to feed their families, and pay their bills. It was NOT fun and games trying to make payroll every two weeks AND pay the overhead to keep the lights on.

I can say from experience that businesses cannot "afford to sell their reissues at close to cost" is nonsense. Sure wages in Asia are a LOT less than anything we could do back in the seventies and eighties, but trying to keep a business open with "close to cost" just doesn't work. Even if they intend to run their business close to the vest, all the other expenses have to be paid on time, or you're out of business. There is NO room for error.


Mike T.

Last edited by MikeT156; 11/23/19 03:09 PM.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.
Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: Synthoid] #3017185 11/23/19 09:03 PM
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I just purchased it, and I am sad to say that I am returning it. Short history: this was my second synthesizer in 1978.

I love the sound, and I learned synthesis on this keyboard. It is an original sounding piece of gear. Nothing sounds quite like it. This re-issue is a high-quality product. There is not one single thing I can complain about it.

However, in live performance, it is extremely difficult to utilize effectively. The most obvious problem is that it does not tune automatically to A440. Also, if you are attempting to dramatically change the tonality and modulation of a sound, you will need more than 10 seconds to do so. This makes live utilization extremely difficult. Certainly, if you only wish to stay within certain parameters, it is extremely functional.

Let me make one thing clear, nothing will sound like this instrument. It is quirky, original, and undeniably exciting.
It is full of analog goodness. It is indeed a special iconic instrument. However, it is for the studio, not the live performer


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D6 Clav
Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: WWW] #3017189 11/23/19 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by WWW
However, it is for the studio, not the live performer


as for me, I would agree with this. I would bet someone somewhere will be using it live, but it won't be me either. Thanks for posting this.


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Behringer Odyssey Officially Shipping... [Re: J. Dead] #3017519 11/26/19 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dead
And Hammond is still in business making products.


"Hammond" is... but Hammond isn't. Current company has nothing to do with the original, just purchased the brand, and patents have been up for years. IMO, go nuts with B3 clones, no one who put any time and money into the original R&D is around anymore.

...but I digress.


"All's fair in love, war, and the recording studio."

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Arturia Keylab88, Mojo61, Seaboard Rise49, Vortex Keytar (RIP), Trumpet
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