#989966 - 03/07/05 11:49 PM
Studio construction questions.
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Jazzman
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Registered: 08/15/01
Posts: 1409
Loc: ,,Hartland MI,USA
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Well I'm building a new studio in the basement of my new home. I will have a separate power source for the entire area. My problem is the ceiling is a little over eight feet high. Not much height there, and I have mixed feelings in using a lay-in ceiling tile, or the use of drywall. All of the prep work for squeeky floors, securing pipes, insulation of ductwork and pipes, etc.
I will be building a dual wall system in certian areas, and I'm not sure if I should use a built-up wood floor system or use a close nap, static free designer type carpet for the entire area.
Flooring:
This is what I would really like to do:
I'm thinking of a wood floor for the main live room, the drum room carpeted, the vocal room carpeted, and the control room carpeted with a wood floor for the console area. The doors for each of these rooms would be metal insulated doors to reduce sound. I would build the walls first then run the flooring to the walls. If I use a wood floor, then I would need to level out the basement floor first. If I use carpet then I would not need to do this. The slope of the floor is not noticable.
Ceiling:
There are pipes, valves, ductwork etc in the joist space, I will need to have access to these. Should I have a lay-in ceiling, or drywall with removable access panels. If I use a drop-in ceiling, I don't want the tiles rattling. I would use 2x2 foot rough tiles that stick below the "T" frame about a half an inch or so, then add felt strips to the "T" steel before I put thetiles in place. I do however like the look of drywall for the ceiling space for sound reduction. I would also use noise panels mounted to the ceiling space to reduce unwanted reflections.
I was also planning to insulate the space between the joists and the first floor. Is there a better insulation on the market other than fiberglas?
Walls:
All of the walls would be drywalled, painted, and have sound panels installed on them.
What should I use for the windows? Triple pane built in glass or buy pre-made windows for all viewing areas? Which would be cheaper?
One last question regarding a drum room. My drum set is a ten piece set with 12 cymbals around it. The set takes up space of about 8 feet deep by 10 feet wide. What would be a good space for a good room, 14x18 feet? I would add other percussion instruments such as congas, etc. in the room. Can the room be square, or should I kick a wall out on an angle? I think there is a ratio that I need to fall within, but I don't know.
Am I thinking right here for all of this, or are there things that I am missing. I really don't want to spend a whole lot of money, but I do want the studio to sound good while the looks are become secondary.
Sorry for the length, but I need some advice and opinions to resolve these issues before I start to purchase materials.
Thanks in advance.
Jazzman 
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#989967 - 03/08/05 12:05 AM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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jackpine
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Registered: 02/11/01
Posts: 1855
Loc: Luck,WI
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You really might want to cut and paste this over into Ethans forum.
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#989968 - 03/08/05 05:33 AM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Registered: 08/23/03
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"...I have mixed feelings in using a lay-in ceiling tile, or the use of drywall. "
Drywall.
"All of the prep work for squeeky floors, securing pipes, insulation of ductwork and pipes, etc. "
If you can't do this, you shouldn't consider building a studio. And if you don't do it right the first time, when will you have the time and money to fix it?
"I will be building a dual wall system in certian areas,..."
Probably a waste of time, since the sound will go up and over anyway, and will also carry through the slab. Just build a good, stiff wall with double drywall on both sides and fiberglas in the cavities and you should be okay.
"...and I'm not sure if I should use a built-up wood floor system or use a close nap, static free designer type carpet for the entire area. "
In the first room that I built, I put a layer of Soundasote on the floor, then heavy padding, then a really thick high quality carpet. The sound was pretty good. In the newer room, I put down the soundasote again, then a half inch of recycled black rubber flooring, then hotel/industrial grade carpet with a thick rubber backing. Better.
"I'm thinking of a wood floor for the main live room, the drum room carpeted, the vocal room carpeted, and the control room carpeted with a wood floor for the console area."
Okay, first off, I suggest a soft floor, because that lessens the slapback echoes between the floor and the ceiling. Others will tell you that wooden floor sounds best. True enough.... in a room with some ceiling height or some chance of properly treating the ceiling. In my 8 foot high basement, I used a soft floor treatment and I also put 2x4 foot panels of four inch and one inch O/C 703, wrapped in muslin and mounted in wooden trays for ease of fastening, to the ceiling in critical areas. This covers a lot of frequencies, but not the very lowest ones. And thst is the rub... you see, the biggest problems in small studios is the low end buildup, and the tendancy for builders to "treat" the rooms with materials which don't affe\ct the lows at all, but muffle the highs, compounding the existing problem.
Get a book on sound. In my opinion, most home studios do not have enough square footage to break up into multiple rooms. Since you're going to spend most of your time in the control room, I usually suggest building a 'main' room (with the control stuff in it) and a single multipurpose booth big enough for a kit, but also usuable as a vocal booth or an iso booth for guitar, etc.
" The doors for each of these rooms would be metal insulated doors to reduce sound."
I think that this is a bad idea.
" I would build the walls first then run the flooring to the walls."
Why? If the floor provides any isolating properties to prevent the sound from going into the slab and being transmitted across the house (and the neighborhood) you should take advantage of those properties.
" If I use carpet then I would not need to do this. The slope of the floor is not noticable."
all of your chairs will constantly be turning down the slope. (Sound like maybe I've done this before? yup. Pretty annoying.)
"All of the walls would be drywalled, painted, and have sound panels installed on them."
What are 'sound panels'?
"What should I use for the windows? Triple pane built in glass or buy pre-made windows for all viewing areas? Which would be cheaper? "
I bought 1/2" thick glass for some windows, and used double sheets. In my big booth, I got a sliding glass door from a junk yard, took both panels out of the metal frames, truned them sideways, and built a custom window frame to hold them. This allowed me to sit them on soft rubber surrounds, seperate them, and to tilt each one in at an angle so that the reflections from the lights didn't glare in anyone's eyes .
"One last question regarding a drum room. My drum set is a ten piece set with 12 cymbals around it. The set takes up space of about 8 feet deep by 10 feet wide. What would be a good space for a good room, 14x18 feet? I would add other percussion instruments such as congas, etc. in the room. Can the room be square, or should I kick a wall out on an angle? I think there is a ratio that I need to fall within, but I don't know. "
Square is horrible. Get a book. Alton Everest, or Phillip Newell both write affordable books on project studio construction.
"Am I thinking right here for all of this, or are there things that I am missing. I really don't want to spend a whole lot of money, but I do want the studio to sound good while the looks are become secondary."
Again, get a book. Make a plan. Check it several times and ask other people. Before you drive a single nail, you should have the work required ansd the materials list completed, and know exactly what your costs will be.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#989969 - 04/03/05 05:19 PM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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Muddy Run
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Registered: 05/23/04
Posts: 343
Loc: USA
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"What should I use for the windows? Triple pane built in glass or buy pre-made windows for all viewing areas? Which would be cheaper? "
Avoid parallel surfaces anywhere if possible.
Ideally studs shouldn't be equal distances apart..
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#989970 - 04/04/05 10:05 AM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by Muddy Run:
[QUOTE....three panes of glass should each be of different thicknesses and mounted in a way so that none is parallel to another.
Avoid parallel surfaces anywhere if possible.
Ideally studs shouldn't be equal distances apart..
"..studs shouldn't be equal distances apart.."
You have a reference for this? I've never seen this claim anywhere. I would consider applying it very carefully in light of local building codes and standards.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#989971 - 04/05/05 07:02 AM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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Muddy Run
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Registered: 05/23/04
Posts: 343
Loc: USA
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You have a reference for this? I've never seen this claim anywhere. I would consider applying it very carefully in light of local building codes and standards.
The differences in frequencies that one can change by tilting the glass is insignificant. The purpose to tilting the glass is a lighting issue
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#989972 - 04/06/05 06:16 AM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by Muddy Run: Just Google "staggered studs, ...
It doesn't have anything to do with "changing frequencies" Glass responds to frequencies just like quartz, and when it's parallel it not only reacts to the other panes it's also prone to standing waves.
"... the other panes it's also prone to standing waves."
What is the standing wave in a 2 inch or 3 inch space, and what it it's possible affect? According to Everest and others, no affect at all, no practical acoustical purpose to tilting the glass. If you are indeed causing a standing wave with negative effects to the room, the amount of tilt that one can get is not enough to negate the wave. It makes good sense to tilt the glass, but the concern is for lighting, not sound.
I also though that it was interesting that multiple panes, even though seperated by air gaps, still equal a solid pane of the samer thickness in stoppage of sound transmission. I bought a lot of half inch glass, where I could have bought more panes of cheaper 1/4" or 3/8" and layered them. Would have been easier to handle, too.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#989973 - 04/07/05 05:18 AM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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Muddy Run
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Registered: 05/23/04
Posts: 343
Loc: USA
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the amount of tilt that one can get is not enough to negate the wave. It makes good sense to tilt the glass, but the concern is for lighting, not sound.
If you do use internal windows, they should be double or triple paned glass. The windows should be tilted downwards towards the floor so they reflect sound away from the microphones and don't add standing waves
The staggered stud design in the lecture I attended on the subject included a non equidistant pattern although I'm unable to find a source to verify that at the moment nor am I able to construe my own good reasoning for it so I'll let you have a bye on that one for the moment.
That glare thing just doesn't fly though.
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#989974 - 04/07/05 11:29 AM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by Muddy Run:
[QUOTE] .... is just the first source I found in about two seconds that contradicts this.
I'm not going to trash about this guy, because he may indeed be knowlegable about audio. Obviously he knows something about video, which is his specialty. In my work within the industry, spanning back to the 1960s, I have done a lot of TV and video work. Much has been because the video guys needed a competent outside audio guy.
But let's look at that that statement presumes: It presumes that the mics and capsules will all be lined up parallel to the opening for the glass. Is that how you mic drums, guitar cabs, and even vocals? I can tell you that this is almost never the situation for me.
It also ignores that there might be parallel walls of a much greater area than the glass, making their affect on the mics much more significant than the affect of the area of the glass. Small and home studios are almost always a box of parallel walls. This is not a bad thing as it makes it easier to calculate modes and ratios, and few home or small studios have enough real estate to sacrifice to some fancy multi-angled physical layout.
If one is smart, one will check the lighting when figuring those angles of tilt. It couldn't hurt, and in the long run, if you are right or I am right won't matter, so long as there is no glare at the engineers chair and you have no audible artifacts coming from the glass.
Now, if you really want something to be concerned about, it is the low end buildup that occurs below 200 Hz in small rooms. That can really destroy the sound, and is of much more import than the tilt of the glass in the control room windows.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#989975 - 04/14/05 12:01 AM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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Jazzman
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Registered: 08/15/01
Posts: 1409
Loc: ,,Hartland MI,USA
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Well folks thanks for the advice.
I was under the impression that for every air space, the sound power level will decrease to the next surface. That is there is a dead space that does not amplify the sound as it passes through to the next piece of glass. The energy would be reduced. I was just thinking about the physics of it. I could be wet here though.
I started building the studio walls. I'm going to use a double walls (off-setting the 2x4 studs) to reduce the sound transmission through the walls that are exterior of the studio, but internal to the home. I will probably use two layers of drywall with staggered joints.
The poured exterior concrete walls will only have a single studded wall with a vapor barrier to the concrete surface.
There is a material on the market that is made up of sticky pads that would go between the layers of drywall. This is supposed to stop vibration of the wall surfaces to each other. Do ay of you have any thoughts on that one?
I would like to pack the full depth of the 2x10 joists with sound material before I finish off the ceiling space. But I'm having a hard time selecting the material. I would like to have a very dense material in that space. Any suggestions??
Lighting is another story. I might go for some modern track lighting. No holes in the ceiling space if I can help it.
Thanks again for the advice.
Jazzman
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#989976 - 04/14/05 08:32 AM
Re: Studio construction questions.
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by Jazzman:
I'm going to use a double walls (off-setting the 2x4 studs) ...
The poured exterior concrete walls will ...
There is a material on the market that is made up of sticky pads ...
I would like to pack the full depth of the 2x10 joists . ...
Lighting is another story. I might go for some modern track lighting.
Include impact noise in your calculations. Direct transmission through the floor and to the walls will radiate everywhere. Some people float their floors, and build the walls on pads. (The level of agravation and expense were beyond me.)
There are a couple of different methods of doing what you suggest, including using dissimilar materials (say, a layer of homasote between the layers of drywall) or spacing (such as the pads would provide) but I wonder how really effective these solutions would be, given that you are driving a drywall screw every few inches to lock the pieces of drywall together. I figure that, if the front piece of drywall vibrates, the rear piece will get the same vibration via the screws. But I don't have any hard evidence for this one, it is just how it seems to me, as a guy who has built a few panels.
I did do something similar with my room, in the form of Liquid Nails, which I put on every panel. I used an entire tube per 4x8 sheet, squeezed it out and trowled it off, and stuck the two pieces of 5/8" drywall together to make one fairly solid sheet. The Liquid Nails itself is a thick and rubbery sort of product, that likely created a similar pad-like function.
Between the joists use Owens Corning or similar fiberglas batting. I filled mine, too. You could also incorporate some sort of trapping into the ceiling and walls as you build, and you could also use 703 or 705 in these spaces. Were I doing it again, I'd build bass traps into the walls and traps and absorbers into the ceiling.
Lighting needs to be carefully considered, because you'll have to get power to these areas. You'll need to at least provide drop boxes for the AC. While were talking about wiring, how about wiring through the walls for mic and speaker lines, video and ethernet, phones, etc.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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