#989806 - 12/03/04 07:18 AM
Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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bdbklyn
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I know this hasn't been the most ventured into forum lately. I do check in quite often I could even say, almost daily. When I don't see any new questions I click somewhere else. It's the internet...it's easy!
If I don't know the answer to a question and don't know some one who does, I usually don't reply as the one thing that annoys me about these forums is that a question is asked if anyone has listened to "xyz" device and there are pages of replys with opinions of how people might like it or not if they had heard it .
Another one that irks me is the question that asks if anyone knows how so and so, got such and such sound, on this and that's record. This is usually followed by pages of speculation.
Anyway....I write about one of these rants a week and then delete them before I post.
Three topics I would like to see started are:
1. The evolution of the hi-end recording studios in the last year. Several majors have closed up shop in L.A. Has anyone ever seen this trend before besides myself and know why it happened?
2. If Freddie DeMann tought me one thing during the time we worked together it was "the profit's in the buy, not the sell". Who are you buying gear from? Are you buying right? Are they gonna be in business a year from now if they are selling at that price? Are you willing to pay a premium for real human tech support?
3. I forgot what 3 was....anybody?...class?
Bill
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#989807 - 12/03/04 01:03 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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blackfish
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Registered: 04/28/04
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Loc: philadelphia
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what do you mean the profits in the buy not the sell. Does that mean you have to pick up merchandise as low as possible before selling, as the retail price on gear seems to drop faster than gas prices go up? Are you wondering about the current trend of manufacturing everything in China? Will any of these gear manufacturers be around in a couple years, I don't know. Heck, I'm still learning what makes one piece of chinese gear better than another. 
I will pay more for real human tech support, but I went to college to try eliminate that aspect of the industry. And in fairness, I don't think most home studio people purchase gear of a level that requires such service. Cheapo consumers should be serviced by equally cheapo manufacturers.That's American business, ingenuity and Capitalism. I would imagine (garuntee) sending a SLAM! unit back to Eve Anna would be returned, hell even seen, much quicker than sending a Tube UltraGain back to Behringer. Shoot, it'll probably be discontinued by the time you get it back. But which manufacturer made more last fiscal year? And is that something any consumer should support..the wal-marting of our industry.
In all seriousness though, which shops closed in LA?
Didn' this happen after the "hair" left LA as well? Please explain this trend as you have seen it. I am sure we would loike to understand, so that we may observe the trend and AVOID it.
I've got a three for you...
What is the next learning curve to throw the masses? Digital audio threw people for a loop, until the language and aspects of the technology became available to everyone who could get to a dell desktop. Whats the next hurdle that will change the industry? Five years ago, I thought it would be surround flowing into some type of three dimensional listening experience, naive i know, but I was 17.
To you teach.....
Freddie Demann- wow what a...Thriller
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#989808 - 12/03/04 05:40 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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Dr.Fuzz
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"The profit is in the buy" I take as meaning only buy stuff that will make you money.... don't waste your money on things that won't positively impact your income.
drfuzz
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"I'm just here to regulate the funkiness"
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#989809 - 12/03/04 05:50 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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blackfish
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ahhhh...Mr. Dooley speaks of Foresight...
I see, thanks for the thought direction Dr. Fuzz
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#989810 - 12/03/04 06:22 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by bdbklyn:
Several majors have closed up shop in L.A. Has anyone ever seen this trend before besides myself and know why it happened?
Bill
I remember the late 80s, when this was happening, too. At the time it seemed to me that the problem was a market-based problem. A few studios started offering unrealistic rates, too low to generate the capital to properly or adequately maintain a facility. Things got to the point in both NYC and LA that I could rent a mid to upper end room for $1 per track/hour. Bad for all the businesses, as some tried to compete on this level, while others were having to cut rates and lay off critical personel to stay afloat.
At the same time, quality independent studios were on the rise, as they had been expanding in quality and services for about 10-15 years at that point, and they were really coming into their own. And independent engineers and producers were also hitting their stride, and labels were getting less of the recording work done in their rooms with their staff.
I also remember the problem being blamed on guys like me, with a small room or garage, a small Ramsa console, and a couple of half inch or quarter inch 8 tracks, offering budget recording. I don't think that this was acurate, as I had NOTHING to compare with any major room, (Not the mics, not the gear, not the monitors, not the room... nothing!) and my clients were generally not people who would be able to book a major room.
I always looked at my space as a place where the regional act could get a fair product and a fair shake, and also get a bit of studio experience. Not as a replacement or substitute for a 'real' room.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#989811 - 12/07/04 02:38 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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bdbklyn
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"The profit's in the buy".
My interpetation was that if you can buy something right, you do it. In doing so, you don't have to rely on a good business climate to make your money back on it.
Evolution.
During the mid 80's to mid 90's the comsole input war years escalated. 32 became 40 to 48 to 60 then 80 or more became the norm. Where did the studio owners think their smaller consoles were resold to?
Motown Hollywood had 3 Neve 40 input 8078 consoles. Motown closed it's studio operation in Los Angeles in the late eighties as being unprofitable. One of the consoles went to Brooklyn Recording Studio and became an 80 input console upon appropration of another 8078 and a few hours of my spare time...(yeah right). The second went to Royaltone, where is has been for 12 years and the third went to Gary Katz (yeah...THE Gary Katz). Each of these consoles went on to 12 years of profitablitly after essentially being sold at "hammer value". Why? The businesses that relied on these consoles for their income evolved and kept evolving.
Bill
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#989812 - 12/12/04 07:13 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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CWHumphrey
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Hi Bill,
I've got one for you. We all know the record production has changed radically (at least in my opinion) over the last 4 or 5 years with the use of DAW's as mixing platforms. My question is this: Is now time to abandon pricing work out on a per song basis? Should we all just stick with time based pricing (per hour or per day)?
As some of you may know, I fashion myself as a mixer for hire. Back in the day, I might price a project out as so much money for each song. As well, their would usually be pricing for mix "recalls" if necessary. Nobody questioned this because they would have to be the scheduling of studio time and therefore addtional studio costs.
More and more these days, I asked to do mixes on either my Pro Tools systems, or their systems. We reach a point where they say that's great, we're done. So I bill, I get paid, and think that's it. However, it seems that more that more and more I'm getting, people coming back later and asking for changes, sometimes quite a bit after they've signed off. Maybe that's what it takes? I'm literallly going to have to make them sign something, stating we're done?
Don't get me wrong, I try to be as accomidating to clients as I can possibly be. However, I'm trying to make a living here, and as I have learned in the past, if you give away too much people don't value your work.
And here's another question, have you ever had to an overdub in mastering? I hear more and more of this practice happening. I recently recorded backing vocals on a track that had already been mastered! Someday, I expect to walk into Tower Records and mics up for an overdub of cowbell on album. You laugh, but someday someone's going to figure out how to put additional tracks on shrink wrapped product!
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#989813 - 12/12/04 10:29 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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Curve Dominant
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posted by CWHumphry:
In my mind, if it went to mastering and everything was a go, then it's done. If they come back after that, then we are embarking on additional production, and it's therefore subject to additional payment. Maybe that's what it takes? I'm literallly going to have to make them sign something, stating we're done?
You have an invoice for each job. The job's fee includes an agreed-upon number of trips back to the drawing board. Additional trips back to the drawing board are charged extra. The client signs this invoice in a box marked "the outset."
When you deliver the final mix, the client signs the invoice again, in a box marked DONE. That job is DONE, finished, over.
When they come back again, you print out a NEW invoice. It has a NEW fee listed on it, and they pay you 50% of that fee up front. Then start the process over.
Explain this policy to every new client. It will give them an incentive to FINISH the job. They need to realize they are screwing themselves with indecisiveness. And you need to protect yourself.
I'm trying to make a living here, and as I have learned in the past, if you give away too much people don't value your work.
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#989814 - 12/13/04 08:17 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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bdbklyn
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Hey Carter...some answers and suggestions.
My question is this: Is now time to abandon pricing work out on a per song basis? Should we all just stick with time based pricing (per hour or per day)?
More and more these days, I asked to do mixes on either my Pro Tools systems, or their systems. We reach a point where they say that's great, we're done. So I bill, I get paid, and think that's it. However, it seems that more that more and more I'm getting, people coming back later and asking for changes, sometimes quite a bit after they've signed off. Maybe that's what it takes? I'm literallly going to have to make them sign something, stating we're done?
Maybe you should have them sign a rider stating that the mix is to be considered done upon mutual consent of the parties involved and should also exclude adding instruments that haven't been invented yet and preformed by players not yet concieved.
And here's another question, have you ever had to an overdub in mastering?
I charge by the hour for mastering because, to quote Shelly Yakus; "It takes as long as it takes". I do however accomodate people with fixed budgets if I can. I, like yourself, want my clients to be pleased with my work. I will do small touchups at times and not charge for that service. But when is the project really done anymore? I am working on a project now where the band is totally inexperienced and totally less than organized. The brought me stereo backing tracks and stereo partially mixed vocal tracks.
Oh yeah and it's two CDs and 26 songs that all cross fade into each other. There was also no sync point between the vocals and the tracks. So I'm trying to mix and master at the same time, which is something I know from experience I shouldn't be doing, but in some ways it actually makes this particular mastering job sound better than if they did it. Oh yeah....and one more thing. It wasn't until the third day of this project that they gave me a sequence which has nothing to do with the order that they had me mix and master the songs! I specifically told them that they had to should give me the songs in the order they were to appear but no one remembers that and they are stunned that I have to go back and redo songs that don't flow the way they are supposed to. Crazy huh?
Anyway, back to your question about when a project is really done. If you don't have a manager or a contract, you really need to get people to sign a letter of agreement that stipulates specifically how much you are charging and for what services. Indicate what the charges will be for additional services.
Hope this helps?
Bill
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#989815 - 12/20/04 09:43 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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blas
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Bill, I loved your story!! When you mentioned chip vacuum, the whole picture had me laughing. NOW that was factory work! I wonder how many here can't even relate to those chips?
blas
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#989816 - 12/23/04 09:00 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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bdbklyn
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The "chip", not chips was the piece of laquer that got cut out of the groove by the cutting stylus. A powerful vacuum with a nozzel behind the stylus picked it up. The chip basket was where it was colected and looked like a continuous piece or very fine black tread.
Bill
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#989817 - 12/29/04 07:58 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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GTRBass
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to quote Shelly Yakus; "It takes as long as it takes.
"Ahh... SSL's nothing more than the world's most expensive monitor board."
Hey, has anyone seen Shelly? Alto's still lookin' for his Neve Pre's!!!
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#989818 - 12/29/04 08:54 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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bdbklyn
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Last I heard, Shelly was still in the Philadelphia area. I miss him.
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#989819 - 12/29/04 09:01 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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GTRBass
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Shelly was a heck of a character. I learned a lot from watching him in a very short time.
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#989820 - 01/03/05 06:38 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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bdbklyn
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I didn't think Shelly did anything in a very short time.
An artist once asked Jimmy Iovine if Shelly was fast since Shelly's rate at the time was $4,500 per song plus the studio time. Jimmy's response was "Shelly fast?....Shelly is glacial!
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#989821 - 01/04/05 08:09 PM
Re: Hey! Lets's ask Bill a studio business question!
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GTRBass
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Yes, you would be right. I meant to say that I had the honor of observing Shelly at work for a short time. I shut up and listened. He was hardly done before I was ...
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