#989784 - 11/04/04 03:43 AM
AES 2004...
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bdbklyn
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Just a quick note regarding the AES convention last weekend, I went up to S.F on Saturday and returned that night. Couldn't really get to see some of the stuff I wanted to see due to catching up with old friends. It was great to see the crowd around Wes Dooley's AEA booth! He's put a lot of effort and a lotta love and a lotta years into those ribbon mics and it's good to see it paying off for him.
I was really surprised...to see that Gus Skinnas (an old friend from NYC and long time Sony tech) had bought out Sony's Sonora product (a 24 track DSD recorder) and has gone into business for himself. I guess nobody bothered to tell him that SACD was over.... I didn't mention it to him.
SSL is now selling outboard,guitar stomp boxes will be next. (I'm kidding!)
Two funny SSL stories... The marketing director in designing the booth for the outboard pieces had the design engineers build a switcher box for demo purposes so that the devices could be switched in and out and selectable to feed speakers or headphones for auditioning. In usual SSL style it does way too much...they sold 10 of them at the show...
In the same coversation...I found out why there is only a $1,000 difference for the total recall option on their new AWS 900 console. It seems the marketing department specified the console without total recall.....the engineeering department put it in anyway. The marketing department found out that clients wanted total recall and came back to engineering with their tails between their legs....It must be nice to have that kind of support.
I missed seeing David Bryce at the A.D.A.M. booth
It just didn't seem like an AES show without David shouting at me while I was listening to 30 seconds of 10 or more pieces of my favorite music.
Ran into Phil O'Keefe..had lunch with Valky, spoke to George Massenburg and Ed Cherney briefly....they say hello.
I did see the wireless controller for the DAW's...but didn't get to see any other fun widget boxes. Glen Coleman (Coleman Audio) and Jonathan Little (Littlelabs) both have booths on the main aisles now...glad to see them doing well
It's been a long time since we were in the trenches together.
Did I miss anything?
Bill Dooley
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#989785 - 11/04/04 05:28 PM
Re: AES 2004...
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Philip O'Keefe
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Dave Deer gave me a demo of the Empirical Labs Lil FrEQ single channel EQ... good stuff. The GT Glory Comp was also impressive.
It was good to see you again Bill. We'll have to hook up for lunch the next time I find myself in LA - if you're available, of course. 
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#989786 - 11/06/04 10:47 PM
Re: AES 2004...
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Dave Bryce
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Originally posted by bdbklyn:
I missed seeing David Bryce at the A.D.A.M. booth
It just didn't seem like an AES show without David shouting at me while I was listening to 30 seconds of 10 or more pieces of my favorite music.
dB
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#989787 - 11/10/04 01:16 PM
Re: AES 2004...
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mbishopsfx
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Originally posted by bdbklyn:
I was really surprised...to see that Gus Skinnas (an old friend from NYC and long time Sony tech) had bought out Sony's Sonora product (a 24 track DSD recorder) and has gone into business for himself. I guess nobody bothered to tell him that SACD was over.... I didn't mention it to him.
2) a 24-track DSD recorder/editor/player has nothing to do with SA-CD releases. If one likes to work on analog multi-track, but not having to beg for 2" tape or have endless hours of mechanicalectronic maintenance, the DSD 24-track is for you. (IMO, DSD has all the analog advantages w/o the disadvantages.) If you find that analog mixing of multi-track source through a great analog console is superior and more FUN than digital mixing in ANY form, the DSD 24-track is for you. If you feel DSD recording removes the pcm "cloud" from your sound (I DO!), the DSD 24-track is for you. If you want to record digital multitrack at up to 128fs, with full and fast editing capabilities, the DSD 24-track is for you. The final release format is entirely UP TO YOU and has nothing to do with the multitrack format.
3) The statement that, "SACD is over" would be quite a surprise to the dozens of major and independent labels with fairly aggresive SA-CD release schedules, to say nothing of the pro & consumer audio companies with DSD and/or SA-CD products on the market.
4) I don't work for Gus Skinas or Sony. I'd record in DSD even if there was no SA-CD!
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With Best Regards, Michael Bishop Chief Engineer Telarc International http://www.telarc.com
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#989788 - 11/10/04 05:44 PM
Re: AES 2004...
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bdbklyn
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Michael,
Thanks for the reply.
1. Sonora was a typo...my bad!
2. I am very intimate with Sonoma, including having meetings with Sony in 1991concerning the development of an actual multitrack vesion for my then employer Yoshiki.
3. Recent meetings with Universal Music have not shown them to be pushing or looking forward to any increase in SACD production which is stll handled by their special poducts division.
Your endorsement of the system is highly appreciated by me as I "drank the kool-aid" on DSD a long time ago. Gus has been a long time friend though our association with Sony 3324's and 1610's back in '82. I wish him well with this venture. Obviously he thinks he has a viable product. I'm glad you are in his corner.
Bill Dooley
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#989789 - 11/12/04 04:06 AM
Re: AES 2004...
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Curve Dominant
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posted by mbishopsfx:
If you feel DSD recording removes the pcm "cloud" from your sound (I DO!), the DSD 24-track is for you.
For the sake of engineering integrity, perhaps you could explain what this "pcm cloud" is.
Then once explained, perhaps you could explain how DSD "removes" this so-called "pcm cloud."
While you are at it, perhaps you could explain how DSD is intrinsically different from PCM.
Sorry if that last query seemed a bit brusque. It's just that my understanding is that DSD is actually 1-bit PCM, which makes your attempt at making them seem distinctly different somewhat misleading.
Since the 1-bit convertor used in DSD inherently adds distortion due to the lack of dither, it would seem your claims of "cloudiness" in multi-bit PCM compared to single-bit DSD conversion are totally paradoxical.
Maybe I'm missing something here. If so, please enlighten.
Thanks in advance!
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#989790 - 11/26/04 06:20 PM
Re: AES 2004...
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Philip O'Keefe
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Curve, maybe you can explain this comment for us:
Since the 1-bit convertor used in DSD inherently adds distortion due to the lack of dither, it would seem your claims of "cloudiness" in multi-bit PCM compared to single-bit DSD conversion are totally paradoxical.
"Adds distortion" due to the lack of dither?  Dithering itself actually adds distortion to the LSB. The lack of dithering, in and of itself, does not "add" any distortion.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point.
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#989791 - 11/27/04 01:33 AM
Re: AES 2004...
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FoxTick
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How do you dither one bit?
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#989792 - 11/28/04 03:19 AM
Re: AES 2004...
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Curve Dominant
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posted by Phil O'Keefe:
Dithering itself actually adds distortion to the LSB.
Not quite.
Dither consists of 2 LSB of triangular shaped white noise. Noise and distortion are two distinctly different effects.
The 2 LSB of triangular white noise is random, and acts to mask quantization error (distortion).
The triangular white noise acts to mimic bell-shaped Gaussian noise, in order to create a smooth noise floor.
The lack of dithering, in and of itself, does not "add" any distortion.
I should have used the word "includes" rather than the word "adds." Thanks for correcting that.
It remains that the un-dithered 1-bit signal includes quantization error (distortion), which cannot be removed from the audio after the fact.
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#989793 - 11/28/04 03:38 AM
Re: AES 2004...
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Curve Dominant
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posted by FoxTick:
How do you dither one bit?
You can't.
In order to dither a signal, you need at least 2 LSB (Least Significant Bits) of audio to create the triangular shaped white noise.
Then, you need a third bit to pass the audio proper.
So, you need to have at least a three bit depth signal to properly dither a digital audio signal.
Which begs the question:
In DSD, what happens to that quantization error inherent in un-dithered 1-bit signal??
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