#986079 - 03/20/02 07:10 PM
ProTools HD effect
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Celloberg
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Registered: 03/19/02
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I had a demo of the system a few weeks ago and as I hate to admit it the system was fantastic!
I was talking with a competitor and it appeared that he envisions the retirement of all his analog gear as the consequence of the new system.
While I was thinking that finally I can hear all the great analog stuff I have and bring more power to our goal here of making the best record we can make.
hummmm I guess we will see.....
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#986080 - 03/21/02 01:12 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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ECBRules
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Registered: 03/03/02
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Don't get let down. Just specalize in a style where analog exceeds digital like Jazz or R&B
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#986082 - 03/21/02 03:12 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Henchman
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save your breath alphajerk. there's no way alsihad users will accept that even the new system is a pile of crap.
_________________________
IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
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#986083 - 03/21/02 03:53 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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alphajerk
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well if you read the thread, even the PT tech guy is quoted by saying "whoa!?" [as in not good]
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alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#986084 - 03/21/02 12:46 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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miroslav
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Originally posted by Celloberg:
.... he envisions the retirement of all his analog gear as the consequence of the new system...
I'm sure you CAN stay completely inside a 'puter because it's..."easier", "faster"...blah, blah, blah... 
But...having variety (and not just lots of plug-ins)...being able to "work" the gear (and not just staring at a 'puter monitor)...standing in a room full of glowing lights and sea of knobs...the "smell" of all those electrons zipping along them wires...and YES, some of that analog "dirt" too...
...that's a studio!!!
Have your friend/competitor post up when he is ready to dump all his analog/outboard gear...I'm sure there will be a few folks willing to take it off his hands... 
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#986085 - 03/22/02 12:31 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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bdbklyn
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The thing about this new PT system is that even the last of the die hard analog guys are drinking the Kool-Aid along with the rest of us....Does anyone know when all the usuable pulg-ins will be ready?
Bill
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#986086 - 03/22/02 02:31 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Curve Dominant
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The big conclusion from Mixerman's thread was that there was an impedence mismatch between the outputs of his Studer, and the inputs of the PT rig, causing reduced low-end definition of the material he was bouncing.
That doesn't exactly make the whole system a pile of crap. It just means the dude's test was flawed.
The "smell" of all those electrons zipping along them wires may be the crack you're smoking, miroslav. There are electrons and wires in a PT system, too. Don't take my word for it; go ahead and look under the hood yourself.
I thought it was telling that the hottest, clearest and most dynamic track on the FATCo CD was produced by Jules on his pre-HD PT rig. If HD is an improvement over that, I don't see the problem.
But Alpha, before you go flying off the handle: the modern dance piece I produced in your beloved Digital Performer is getting rave reviews from the national tour the dance company has been on, so there you go. It's not what ya use, it's the way that ya use it.
Just wait until The Curve gets his mitts on one of those PT HD chumpys -
E
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#986087 - 03/22/02 03:42 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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CWHumphrey
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>>The big conclusion from Mixerman's thread was that there was an impedence mismatch between the outputs of his Studer, and the inputs of the PT rig, causing reduced low-end definition of the material he was bouncing.<<
With all due respect to Mixerman: If there was an impedance mismatch between a Studer and Pro Tools, there'd be a bigger set of problems than subjective changes in the low-end, like say, a severe loss in level?
I think it's so cute when engineers toss off electronic terms without having any idea of their definitions.
As Bill reminded me a few weeks ago: "We'll need to send them to the store for some nanoWebers."
Cheers,
Carter William Humphrey
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#986088 - 03/22/02 03:35 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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ECBRules
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Registered: 03/03/02
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That's funny.. When I used to work for *cough* pizza hut years ago, we used to send the new workers on their first day to the walk in refrigerator for the "dough repair kit". They would then ask the boss where it was.
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#986089 - 03/22/02 05:18 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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bdbklyn
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Registered: 04/04/01
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Originally posted by CWHumphrey:
>>The big conclusion from Mixerman's thread was that there was an impedence mismatch between the outputs of his Studer, and the inputs of the PT rig, causing reduced low-end definition of the material he was bouncing.<<
With all due respect to Mixerman: If there was an impedance mismatch between a Studer and Pro Tools, there'd be a bigger set of problems than subjective changes in the low-end, like say, a severe loss in level?
I think it's so cute when engineers toss off electronic terms without having any idea of their definitions.
As Bill reminded me a few weeks ago: "We'll need to send them to the store for some nanoWebers."
Cheers,
Carter William Humphrey
I trying to figure out how the transfer that was done was configured, does it say somewhere in the tread. The outputs of anything with Studer on it, should be able to drive pretty near any reasonable impedence with no sonic degradation. Generally, when we align for tranfers, we will check tones on the playback machine while hooked up to the transfer as a matter of course. This to compensate from any loading problems.
Bill
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#986090 - 03/22/02 05:53 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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alphajerk
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no, it MIGHT be an impedance mismatch... he was THINKING it MIGHT be giving the system the benefit of doubt... he said he wasnt sure. it was a totally legit test with now flaws i could see... there were the necessary constants. were did you learn to read curve?
RADAR24 came out far better in the test. funny how the top studios dont use whats sonically BEST digitally... i use what i use out of sheer COST, i CANT afford to drop TONS of money into my studio... well i could if i werent married with a kid. but it seems that something is "wrong" with the system because i have xferred 2" to ADAT via apogees [14/44.1] before with no low end loss like he is describing. but if i were to move off DP, i would certainly go with radar48 over PTHD any day of the week.
the PT system is just RETARDED. it SHOULD be OPEN to various ADAC's... of which are far better that anything they could possibly dream of.
of course majors dont care about sonics anyways really... just product, hell they dont even care about that a whole lot... mostly IMAGE.
_________________________
alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#986091 - 03/22/02 06:14 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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miroslav
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Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
..The "smell" of all those electrons zipping along them wires may be the crack you're smoking, miroslav. There are electrons and wires in a PT system, too. Don't take my word for it; go ahead and look under the hood yourself...
Yeah, Curve...I think I kinda' figured it out that even a PT system runs on electricity...a duh!!!
Still...it's just computer hard drives, processors and some AD/DA converters that make up the bulk of the "audio" electronics...everything else is just "virtual reality"...plug-ins.
I still like outboard gear, lot's of knobs, cables all over the place, tape spinnin' 'round and around...and yeah...even some tubes smokin' away.
That's not to say that PT is junk and that you can't make music with one of those all-in-one…port-a-potty boxes.
I know you like them, and think of them as a complete "studio".
Hey, that's cool...if it works for you and you can get what you want from them... 
I have quite a bit of the digital world mixed in with the analog...and yeah...I use a computer based DAW...have been since the early '90s.
I just happen to like this good 'ol analog stuff, and anyone that thinks it's not good enough anymore...or that you need to be "all digital"...or running a full-blown PT rig before you can do any good music...that's just foolish.
These are all just tools that can yield equally good products.
So...put that in your crack pipe and have a hit on me...bro! :p
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#986092 - 03/22/02 07:02 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Kris
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Originally posted by alphajerk:
the PT system is just RETARDED. it SHOULD be OPEN to various ADAC's...
Originally posted by alphajerk:
of which are far better that anything they could possibly dream of.
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#986093 - 03/22/02 08:59 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Curve Dominant
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posted by CWHumphrey:
With all due respect to Mixerman: If there was an impedance mismatch between a Studer and Pro Tools, there'd be a bigger set of problems than subjective changes in the low-end, like say, a severe loss in level?
I think it's so cute when engineers toss off electronic terms without having any idea of their definitions.
It was Mixerman who deduced, on his forum, that there might have been an impedence mismatch. It wasn't my idea. I wasn't there at the test, just going by what I read on the thread. I understand the impedence issue was not the only factor; there was also the issue of the non-buffered convertors on the PT rig being potentially a factor. And if you read the thread very carefully, CW, you'll note that the test was configured in such a way that Mixerman would not have been aware of any loss in over-all level. My point was that the thread demonstrated numerous variables in the test, making it somewhat inconclusive.
If you think Mixerman tosses off electronic terms without having any idea of their definitions, I suggest you go to his forum and take the matter up with him. I'm a composer and a songwriter, and engineers work for me. I expect you guys to know what the fuck you are talking about.
I know who Mixerman is. I like the records that he's mixed, a lot. One of my all-time favorite records was mixed by him. He's excellent at what he does. He also has a blindingly irrational hatred of ProTools, and will go to great lengths to find flaws in the system. This is ultimately good for the system, and for digital systems in general: they are steadily improving in quality and value in response to their potential user's needs and standards. But I find it amusing that everyone who wants to do the "butter-up" dance with Mixerman will jump on the bashing bandwagon without any sort of rational viewpoint of their own.
But, I'm being unrealistically naive, of course. This is the music business, where even the engineers can be irrational. Good thing we have artists around to keep you boys out of trouble.
E
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#986094 - 03/22/02 09:52 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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CWHumphrey
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Registered: 05/31/01
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>>no, it MIGHT be an impedance mismatch... he was THINKING it MIGHT be giving the system the benefit of doubt...<<
It's probably the flux capacitor! I don't have any specs in front of me but here goes:
The Studer, any Studer probably has an input impedance of 10kohm or better, and an output impedance of 150 ohms or less. Pro Tools, the same. So, with one feeding the other, or each of them feeding the console, how could their be loading of the input? The input device would have to be less than 150ohms.
Thanks Bill, but I'd hardly call myself the real deal. I've met the real deal a few times and I'm not fit to shine their shoes!
-Carter William Humphrey
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#986095 - 03/22/02 10:10 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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CWHumphrey
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Curve, I'm not picking on you. And certainly I'm not interested in a pissing match with Mixerman. But here's a lesson to us all: just explain what you hear, don't try to insert fancy terms like nominal, or fringing effect, or eddie currents, unless you have a firm understanding of their definitions.
I've had too many engineers and assistants yelling at me, back in my teching days, to have much of a sense of humor about being force fed a diagnosis--even online.
Sorry to be so grouchy, but there is so much misinformation on industry boards and way too many agendas these days.
God help us all,
Carter William Humphrey
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#986096 - 03/23/02 02:00 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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alphajerk
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Registered: 03/06/00
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well CW, i dont know dick about matching jack shit... if the plug fits into the others socket... i plug it in and see what happens so im not necessarily supporting or disclaiming his findings or his theories.
and i accept what you say as well... so what explains the low end loss? digital technology as a whole? i doubt it because the radar24 was able to reproduce it [although he still maintained the analog sounded better... im just not that picky, hell... consumers dont care, we long passed any quality they give a shit about.] so SOMETHING is "off" about the PTHD system... could be that particular system and how its set up?
but i really doubt he is making the whole story up... on the other hand, i dont use the "greatest" system or convertors but i dont have an issue with low end loss whatsoever... but i dont really care to get all clinical and even waste time A/Bing like this. all i care about is my system and if it gives me what i want out of it. mine does [well, if i can get my new computer stable, it will damn dualGHZ's] so im a happy camper in regards to recording, and my clients love the way it turns out as well...
kris... hell, who am i to argue. you get a pretty good sound out of your system. if it works for you, fuck em all who say otherwise. regarding the interfaces... i was talking about NOT having to buy theirs in order to run others.
_________________________
alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#986097 - 03/23/02 04:41 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Curve Dominant
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Curve, I'm not picking on you. And certainly I'm not interested in a pissing match with Mixerman. But here's a lesson to us all: just explain what you hear, don't try to insert fancy terms like nominal, or fringing effect, or eddie currents, unless you have a firm understanding of their definitions.
I've had too many engineers and assistants yelling at me, back in my teching days, to have much of a sense of humor about being force fed a diagnosis--even online.
Sorry to be so grouchy, but there is so much misinformation on industry boards and way too many agendas these days.
God help us all,
Carter William Humphrey
My sincerest apologies, my good brother, if my post appeared more caustic in print than I meant it to be in reality. I tend to type like I talk in a local bar or coffeehaus, where you can see me smiling and hear the friendly inflections in my voice.
That all having been said...
I agree 100% with your point, and it was the same point I meant to make, but with a caveat: have some scientific basis within which to put what you hear in context.
A good example is the big debate recently on GM's forum concerning DSD. There were some renown engineers saying things like, "It's less fatigueing." Well, some of us wanted to know exactly why DSD was "less fatigueing." We wanted to "look under the hood" of DSD, so to speak.
Scientific inquiry proceeded to demonstrate that the 1-bit delta-sigma modulator used for DSD required drastic back-end roll-off of all of the nasty high frequency overload and 3rd order harmonic distortion inherent in DSD, due to the inability to properly dither a 1-bit signal. In order to properly dither, you need at least 3-bit signal: two bits of white noise with a triangular PDF (because one bit of triangular white noise only contains .5 of the energy for one bit effective) to dither, plus 1 bit for the audio. So, with that knowledge in mind, one is able to conduct a A/B test between a SACD and a Redbook CD, and clearly hear why the SACD is "less fatigueing": it is artificially distorted to the effect of reduced high-end definition. Now, you may say "I like the 3rd order harmonic distortion," but it cannot be undone, so it is not an accurate replication of the source audio. I'm sure you will agree that accurate representation of what we are recording is our collective goal, so any technology that distorts that goal is suspect.
As such for Mixerman's test. He recorded drums on a Studer, and then re-recorded those drums to a PT HD system. He didn't record the drums straight into the PT HD system. There was a much more complicated signal path, with a lot of variables inherent. That was obvious to me, an artist, completely lacking any engineering degree. The thing is, I happen to come from a family of engineers. Not from the music industry, but from the military/defence industry. This doesn't make me an engineer per se, but I am not totally ignorant of the methods of scientific inquiry either.
We are lucky, as engineers in this business. If we make a mistake, a song doesn't sound quite as good as the next one. In the military, a mistake by an engineer can cost lives.
Most of the world still thinks that the space shuttle Challenger exploded in mid-flight because Morton-Thiakol manufactured defective gaskets - mostly known as "O-rings." In truth, the O-rings were not defective at all. It was the conditions that they were subjected to: sitting on a launchpad in sub-zero temperatures, which rendered them ineffective. Once frozen, the rubber material the O-rings were made of could not properly respond to the rapid increase in temperature once the aircraft was in flight and burning jet fuel in high quantities. Boom.
What's my point? Well, for starters, if we are going to call ourselves engineers, let's try to adhere to the general standards of engineering that most industries do. Let's explain our methods of inquiry, and show the math. If there are those among us who don't know the math, make an effort to explain it along the way. Only look down upon someone while you are pulling them up.
We are all in this shit together, after all.
Eric Vincent
Curve Dominant Sound&Vision
curvdominant@earthlink.net
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#986098 - 03/23/02 05:20 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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CWHumphrey
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Curve,
Hey no offense to you, and none taken by me. And in the spirit of clarification, and education try this experiment:
take a consumer CD player, plug it into a vintage device such as any Pultec or black faced 1176. If these vintage devices are not modified in any way, you will now have an impedance mismatch or "loading" of the input. Yes, the bottom end will disappear. Also, your gain will be completely in the toilet and it will be extraordinarily noisy. That is is an impedance mismatch.
Concerning your discussion of SACD, is your assertion that the particular type of noise shaping is what causes the SACD to sound "less fatiguing" than a Red Book CD, or the fact that Delta-Sigma modulation decoding is implemented? And, wouldn't that those factors relate more to the encoding rather than the decoding? You lost me there.
Cheers,
Carter William Humphrey
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#986099 - 03/24/02 06:20 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Paul Berolzheimer
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Registered: 10/04/01
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Loc: glendale,CA,UNITED STATES
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Hey CW,
I'm no tech, although I've spent a LOT of time with audio gear of all types, races, creeds....
But it seems worth raising the question here-
Isn't it true that there can be varying degrees of impedence mismatch, with varying consequences?
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Paul Berolzheimer
Progenitor of 2 amazing sound sources
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#986100 - 03/24/02 05:59 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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CWHumphrey
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Well Folks,
I thought I'd go to the source and get the I/O impedence spec.'s for the new HD. Unfortunately, I didn't find what I was looking for. So, if anyone has these numbers, post them here, and we'll puzzle it all out.
Cheers,
Carter William Humphrey
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#986101 - 04/03/02 07:49 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Mixerman
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Registered: 10/20/01
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Originally posted by CWHumphrey:
Well Folks,
I thought I'd go to the source and get the I/O impedence spec.'s for the new HD. Unfortunately, I didn't find what I was looking for. So, if anyone has these numbers, post them here, and we'll puzzle it all out.
Cheers,
Carter William Humphrey
You're right it's not an impedence mismatch. In fact, I had serious doubts about that, but I was entertaining any and all thoughts on the subject. Impedence was one of the items that came up. There were a few other whacky ideas, that to be honest, I have no idea if they even have validity.
To make a long story short, I transferred from a Studer 827 to PTHD via a direct Elco to Elco connection. When we A/B'ed the results we found that the bottom end was severely lopped off of the PT playback. I described it as missing the lower octacve.
So I got a Radar in there and did the same A/B comparison between the 2" source and the Radar transfer. It did not lose its bottome end, and it sounded pretty damn good. The differences were incredibly subtle. Certainly nothing I would concern myself with.
I checked output levels religiously, I made sure I used the exact same cabling, I plugged the outputs throught the same exact faders using the same exact connections. I printed the mixes to DAT through the same db gold convertor, and I made sure that my monitoring levels between DATS was idenical, and I physically switched DATS and ran blind picks several times to make sure that I wasn't just fooling myself in any way.
If you want to read all the gory details go to the link that Alpha provided.
Anyway, I have the audio files if you want to hear them.
I've been accused of setting up the tests as an Alsihad basher. While I am somewhat disgusted with the company that makes Alsihad, I ran the experiments for the Producer on this particular project, as he wanted to figure out whether he should upgrade. If the results were good, I would have posted those results and I would have applauded Digidesign for finally coming out with a product that sounds good too.
As I'm not renumerated by Mother of Alsihad (nor would I want to be) I tell the truth of what I find.
All measurements were done by ear. I guess I'm going to have to do the same experiment in a different room, with a different system, and see if my results are repeated.
Bill, do you have the new system over at Extasy?
Mixerman
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#986102 - 04/03/02 08:32 AM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Philip O'Keefe
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Mixerman, I'd love to hear those files - call it "professional curiousity". Drop me a private email or give me a call.
Thx.
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#986103 - 04/03/02 02:56 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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bdbklyn
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Registered: 04/04/01
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Mixerman,
We haven't upgraded yet. The owner has been on tour in Japan since the week before the system was introduced.
From a dollars and cents point of view it's hard to justify the upgrade to the company's Chief Financial Officer so I'm not even gonna go there. Currently I'm not losing money because I don't have the new system.
It will be addressed upon the owner's return.
My tests were conducted using live musicians A,B,C-ing between Mix + 5.1 with Apogee AD8000-se, New PTHD and the live source.
I didn't hear any compromising in the low end at all on the new system. However, I did love the sound of the low end on Radar upon my last listening test with that system. I really suspect that something was up with your transfers when you did them.
Bill
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#986104 - 04/03/02 04:10 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Mixerman
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Registered: 10/20/01
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Originally posted by bdbklyn:
Mixerman,
We haven't upgraded yet. The owner has been on tour in Japan since the week before the system was introduced.
From a dollars and cents point of view it's hard to justify the upgrade to the company's Chief Financial Officer so I'm not even gonna go there. Currently I'm not losing money because I don't have the new system.
It will be addressed upon the owner's return.
My tests were conducted using live musicians A,B,C-ing between Mix + 5.1 with Apogee AD8000-se, New PTHD and the live source.
I didn't hear any compromising in the low end at all on the new system. However, I did love the sound of the low end on Radar upon my last listening test with that system. I really suspect that something was up with your transfers when you did them.
Bill
Mixerman
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#986105 - 04/03/02 04:48 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Kris
Platinum Member
Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tallahassee, Florida
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Haven't kept up with all the details, but did you send the HD converters back to Digi to have a checkup, or try another one? Maybe it was simply broken gear.
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#986106 - 04/03/02 05:12 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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bdbklyn
Platinum Member
Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 1035
Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by Mixerman:
[QUOTE]
Bill,But if that were the case, the Radar would have failed too. I used the same cabling, did the transferrs twice with the 827, and tried it again with an 800, same results.
Mixerman
Anyone know if that's the case? If it is, you wouldn't be using exactly the same wiring, wouldya?
bill
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Studio Guru
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#986107 - 04/18/02 04:41 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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Celloberg
Senior Member
Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 59
Loc: hollywood,CA,UNITED STATES
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Jeez what a thread I have started.
I just had someone tell me that they were told by various sources that I dont like PTHD!?
I will state that the PTHD rig rocks!! As good as anything I have herd at 192khz.
All this conversation regarding flawed listening tests views on impedance etc were interesting but common guys this sounds great! It's a long time commin but it's here.
If you can't hear it you need to try again under different circumstances. Here is how my test was done:
In our Mix room @ Cello ATR124 playback of 8 channels of a drum mix I recorded (I know this tape A great track recorded in studio A at A&M lustful room sound.) To continue the thread of the thread.You can arc weld off the back of the ATR124 it will drive anything. In this case it drove both the PTHD and the input to my SSL J9k.
8 faders PTHD return, 8 Faders ATR124 return. Gain matched within an inch of it's life.
Listening I found the PTHD@192khz to be quite literal to the ATR It was apparently slightly brighter but not a fizzy bright but a very sweet top end the type that sums well and is not obnoxious.
At 48K it was still wonderful but that standard fizzy top end returned that I hear on everything since the advent of digital audio.
It was my judgement that this rig is now worthy of the buss that feeds it (in my case Neve 8028/8078 & SSLJ9k).
I know that they have really done no work on the dither mixer so I did a fast test of the summed output of it and found that the converters went a long way with their quality in helping the situation but its still for the most part the same. So as a recorder I am a believer as a "total solution" not at the moment, OSX?
I am excited to start working in 24/192, The latency issues should be put to rest not to mention that the plugin situation should be greatly improved.
I love DSD but I have to say hearing this new PTHD Rig as well as the Radar both running 192khz (Incidentally the Radar always sounded good). I will prefer PCM (which I can DSP) side of the fence. In the end you really cannot do hard core production work with DSD.
So audio is improving and I feel I can treat these machines sonically as I treat my ATR's. Maybe someday I will retire the old girls but for now I have 6 ATR124's chugging away alongside protools/radar/etc in top sessions. I wont be retiring my MRL in the foreseeable future.
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#986108 - 04/18/02 04:51 PM
Re: ProTools HD effect
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alphajerk
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/06/00
Posts: 7950
Loc: asheville nc usa
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DSD will always be a total waste unless you are strictly working total analog the whole session and then transferring the FINAL product to DSD.
and did you ever think that fizzy top end MIGHT be the hearing imapired engineers who are making it so? or possibly old working habits? or maybe jus shitty engineers?
_________________________
alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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