#974205 - 04/27/00 05:28 AM
Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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c.cash
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Registered: 03/17/00
Posts: 321
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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The one thing about my drum mixes that really bothers me is the hi-hat. To make everything else sound the way I want it to, with mic placement and EQ, I end up with sizzly, way too up-front hi-hat. This has been the case with many different recordings, many different drummers. Some people actually like it, but I don't.
Here is my typical approach: 57 top, maybe 3" off the head @ about 45 degrees, aimed toward the center. Null-point is at the hi-hat as much as possible. I don't like the sound of the 57 eating the head - that's why I back it off. Bottom is usually a 57 or condenser (phase/polarity usually reversed). All of the drums are close-mic'd. I'm usually not shy with EQ as long as it gets me the sound I want. Usually on the snare there is a cut in the mids/low mids and a little boost in the upper mids/highs.
I don't like gating the snare... 1) when the gate is opened, not only does the snare pop through, so does the rest of the kit, especially the hi-hat. It sounds really unnatural to me. And, 2) grace/ghost notes are lost (I know, overheads).
The best case I've had so far was in using the overheads as the main mics, and blending in the "beef" from the close mics. This is cool and I'm liking it more and more. But I still dig the tightness of close-mic'ing, in which case I use the overheads mainly as cymbal mics, eq'ing out a lot of mids and lows.
I NEVER use a hi-hat mic, I've got too much so as it is. Any tips/tricks much appreciated. I am cross-posting this, as I'd like to see what Messrs. Massenburg and Nichols have to say.
Thanks,
Curt
[This message has been edited by c.cash (edited 04-27-2000).]
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#974206 - 04/27/00 05:37 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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THE MIX FIX
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Registered: 03/01/00
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C. Cash:
I usually use the 57 just like you do, but a little closer, with no gates, or bottom snare mics, and get minimal High Hat bleed.
Of course I DO mic the High Hat with, like a KM-84, in the EXACT axis and position of the snare mic, towards where the stick hits the High Hat, and just above the "air puffs" that escape when the cymbals close.
If it is VERY in phase with the snare mic, then you can EQ it a little brighter, to bring presence and direction to the High Hat verses the snare.
Are you sure most of your leakage isn't coming from the BOTTOM snare mic?
------------------
Bob.
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#974207 - 04/27/00 05:45 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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jfinevog
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Registered: 02/16/00
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Loc: vancouver bc canada
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something that has worked for me is to mic the sn closer to the rim but face the mic toward the edge of the sn and away from the hatt. but it really depends on the sound you are going for. Maybe try and gate the bottom mic as well?
_________________________
t.v creates imaginary friends for lonely people.
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#974208 - 04/27/00 06:08 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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c.cash
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Bob, I know that's not the problem because I don't always mic the bottom (only if it sounds like a tom), but I always have this problem. Thanks for the tips.
Jonathan. Thanks also. I was trying to come up with my most common scenario, but I always experiment with mic placement, as every drum, drummer, and band are different. So yes, sometimes I do just what you are saying. Always... hats-a-searing.
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#974209 - 04/27/00 06:56 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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Ed Cherney
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Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 547
Loc: Venice, Ca.
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Your main mic approach does not sound bad. Certainly getting the snare mic as off axis as possible from the hi hat helps. Getting the snare drum tuned right can really help, along with experimenting with some different snare mics might not hurt either. I have recently been using a...hey wait, I don't want to plug anything here......the hell with it...an Audio Technica AT 23HE...very good rear rejection, cheap, bright enough that I usually don't have to crank in that upper mid range that tends to suck in the hi hat. I gotta say though, most of the time it's the way the drummer is hitting the hat. Forgetting all of that, here is a trick that I borrowed (OK, stole) from my days assisting Bruce Swedien. A nice piece of plywood, maybe 6" by 4", cut to your own tastes, mount with LO 2 adapters (you know, those mic clips), and attach the plywood to a small mic stand........and slip it between the snare and hi hat. You might try to glue some non reflective material (a piece of carpet, etc.)
Be careful to keep it out of the way of the drummer. This should increase snare/hat separation considerably.
You should be able to charge a rental fee for your new custom built non linear drum diffusor....just kidding.
If all else fails, get a duller hi hat, and put it 20 feet away from the drummer.
ec
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#974210 - 04/27/00 08:39 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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Pro Jules
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Registered: 03/11/00
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New crispy skins help as you have to twist less with the pliars on the eq, also vintage Zildgen New Beat hi hats, (not shiny, the color of an old sax) are hard to better as they are slick in the top end but v f quiet.
But hey! Charlie Watts is polite and doesn't hit the hats on the snare beat, why dont all drummers do that?!!!
Jules
[This message has been edited by Julian standen (edited 04-27-2000).]
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#974211 - 04/27/00 12:09 PM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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Kris
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Registered: 03/22/00
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Loc: Tallahassee, Florida
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I found that it helps to play back a take for the drummer so they can hear how loud they are playing the hihat. Then remind them to play softer on the hi hat for the next take and especially if they are hitting the open hihat. That way they are thinking about it after actually hearing the problem. It made a big difference for me with a drummer I'm working with now.
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#974212 - 04/27/00 03:07 PM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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Anonymous
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I had one drummer who kept his hat so close to the snare, that any isolation was inmpossible. He had the hat out WAY over the snare. After mucking with placement and a few mics, and right before I was about to kill him, I got an idea. And it's like Ed said.
Except in my case I used 2 of the round pop filters with the long flexible extensions. I happened to have some sheet metal in the car that I cut round, and used some double stick tape to put some foam on it. I then taped it to the pop filters, mounted them on the drum stands and bent them in to get some blockage.
After a few placement tries I got some good isolation.
Rich...
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#974213 - 04/28/00 04:56 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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THE MIX FIX
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Loc: NYC Area
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Ed and Rich:
I know it has worked for you guys, and Bruce Sweiden did it, but I find TWO problems with the "barrier" method.
Obviously and firstly, the thing being in the way of the drummer, but, secondly, it interfering with the pickup area, as to change the pattern and axis/phase of the mic.
It's like when they try to put a baffle between the mics on an acoustic guitar and vocal when they both go down live, simultaneously.
The baffle reflects some of the sound back into the mic, and changes the pattern a bit, just as it does when a Hip Hopper holds a 58 with his hand covering the "rear" of the ball shaped wind screen, effectively turning it into an Omni, or when an RE-15 is placed in a totally enclosed mic clip without a slot for the "Phase/Directionality" openings to do their thing.
Don't you find it changes the sound, and pattern of the mic, somewhat?
Not that that can't be worked around, but it DOES have to do SOMETHING to the sound.
It's like when they do mic "Shootouts" and ALL the mics are pointed at the sound source at once.
They HAVE to interfere with each other, somewhat, by putting a barrier on a side, or back, or someplace, on an adjacent mic.
Might be what you want for a PZM, but not for a Cardiod or any variation of a Cardiod (Hyper, Super, etc.).
Just my input. (Low Z)
------------------
Bob.
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#974214 - 04/28/00 06:57 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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Mark Lemaire
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Registered: 03/21/00
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Loc: Emeryville, CA USA
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I gotta agree with the folks who repeat the old truth on this- it's the drummer!! The good ones hit the snare hard, the hat soft. Also, I try to have a snare around that is brighter and ruder than any other. If the snare sounds "sweet" or "rich" at the basics, it will probably get lost by the mix if there are lots of dubs. Then you wind up bringing up the top (and here comes the hat!!).
I hate to gate, but I WILL split the snare signal at mix and run a gated version for the verb only. This keeps the dreaded hat from getting juiced by the snare verb, and further muddying up the mix...
Ed's "speaker on the snare at mix" trick also helps.
But there's no substitute for a savvy drummer. I always say "if you want to be known as a good engineer, work with good drummers."
ML
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#974215 - 04/28/00 07:03 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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Mark Lemaire
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Registered: 03/21/00
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Loc: Emeryville, CA USA
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Oh- one other thing- I record everything flat- except the kik and snare. These are patched thru a GML 8200 (thanks, George!) and cranked with "extreme prejudice" if necessary. I think this EQ is magic- somehow the hat leakage is not as harsh and rude when I crank the highs with this unit. But of course, the best is not to have to bring up the highs at all... back to those great drummers...
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#974216 - 05/04/00 01:19 PM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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c.cash
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Registered: 03/17/00
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Had I thought of the barrier idea myself, I'd be looking over my shoulder to make sure that no one "in the know" saw the crime I was committing. Gotta' learn the rules to break 'em...
Bob - I would've dismissed the idea because of reflections/phase probs. But hey, I think I'll check it out... if I get any flack, I'll tell 'em Ed Cherney and Bruce Swedien said it's OK.
Rich- sounds more elegant.
Jules- very solid advice on the heads - I'm learning that the more I can do to eq the kit naturally the better it gets.
Kris- I hear you, but I won't attempt to change a drummer's style that quickly. I guess some drumers could pull it off. I read a gazillion times that Bonham would rip the heads off of engineers if they tried to move the mics. He'd just change his dynamics if something needed to be different.
Mark- hope to try the gate/verb split soon.
Thanks for your help!
C.Cash: Behind The Little Board
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#974217 - 05/05/00 06:16 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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jfinevog
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Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 227
Loc: vancouver bc canada
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another take on the rev split thing is to run the sn through a trigger like the dm5pro and use that to send to your rev unit sounds good and get rid of the hatt through the rev as well
_________________________
t.v creates imaginary friends for lonely people.
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#974218 - 05/09/00 09:16 PM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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Ed Cherney
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Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 547
Loc: Venice, Ca.
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Splitting the snare works really well. You can smash it, crank the high end, or add other EQ elements that might be missing from the original signal, and squeeze it in there for support without messing too much with the dynamics. I also thwack the kick........limiter, gate, and then the EQ....
ec
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#974219 - 05/12/00 06:52 AM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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gdubbs
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Registered: 04/23/00
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Loc: Morgan Hill, CA 95037 USA
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i find an old refridgerator box and sit it over the hihat. i then cut a hole for the drummers arm to go thru. i suspend a 57 thru a hole in the top of the box. no bleed. you just have to have the drummer get used to pulling his hand out quick enough for those tom runs. but seriously, depending on the music style...i question the size of the plates first. no need to be using brake drums if youre playing light jazz or vice versa. then i just place the mic about 1 1/2 inches to 2 inches in from the outside about 1-2 inches above the plates when theyre open...good luck
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#974220 - 05/24/00 03:31 PM
Re: Minimizing hi-hat bleed
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Anonymous
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Here's another idea that I read about years ago and have actually put to good use on two diffent occasions:
Painfully gate the snare track, then send it to a guitar amp laying on its back. Lay a snare drum across the amp, and the gated snare track will actually "play" the snare on the amp. Mic the new snare and record it to a new track, pushing it a few frames if you like.
It sounds dumb, but really works to get a clean snare track. For jazz brushes... nope. But for many applications, it's a lot easier than getting a drummer to play right!
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