#974082 - 05/09/00 10:29 PM
Learning To Listen
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Ed Cherney
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Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 547
Loc: Venice, Ca.
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I am starting this thread to talk about what it takes, and how you learn to listen, objectively, subjectively, to music in the studio. Below is a question from Jason in Canada, who is just starting out, and I think is a great question.
Jason Says:
My dilemma is that I could walk into the studio and set up a
band to record, dial in good levels to tape so nothings clipping, and
so on.... but I could never do as good of a job as any of the staff
because I can't hear the small but important things they hear and its
hard to teach myself to hear things. Its not like I can go pick up a
manual and learn to hear all the little subtleties that are in a mix.
What's frustrating is that I don't know how to teach myself anything
more about recording. Before I could go home and teach myself what
every control on the console did, and teach myself what the ratio knob
did on a compressor. Now its like I'm stuck and I just have to learn
at a slow rate which I have very little control over. Comments
Appreciated
Jason, perspective is everything, and the only way to gain perspective is to gain experience. You get experience by being in the room, sitting in front of the music and sitting (or standing) in front of some speakers. I don't believe that these are skills a person is born with, but skills that are developed over time. I was fortunate to serve an apprenticeship at a studio in Chicago (oh, maybe more than a few years ago), and worked in major studios for major moguls as an assistant engineer for a number of years. Whenever I was in the studio, I made it a point to keep my head (and ears) in the session at all times. Basically listening along with the engineer and producer. When the engineer was twisting a knob, EQ'ing, reverbing, placing a mic, etc. my ear was always (OK, usually)with him, on what he was doing. As time went by, my listening skills became more second nature to me, I could identify microphones, preamps, EQ's, and especially sonic problems.
So, how do you learn to hear? Can you teach it in school? What do you all think?
ec
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#974083 - 05/10/00 12:44 AM
Re: Learning To Listen
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jfinevog
Senior Member
Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 227
Loc: vancouver bc canada
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I really think that you learn to hear by listening to many a great album, the ones that allot of engineers say are great. I started out by listening to what was the difference between the kik sounds on one album to the next ,then the sn toms gits and so on. At first I couldn't even hear what the kik was but you learn fast. Sound school I think goes over everything but doesnt give you the essential tools for what to listen for or at least thats how it was for me. Talking about sound school I had a guy that's in his 3rd year of sound school riht now come in to my studio the other day and track drums for a friends band. I couldn't belive that he didn't even know how to mic a kik or ohs or where to place a room mic or eq at all really. So I say if sound school doesn't teach you how to get good sounds then how can they say we have the best grads and they're ready to stand behing the big board and work in the real world?
_________________________
t.v creates imaginary friends for lonely people.
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#974084 - 05/10/00 02:47 AM
Re: Learning To Listen
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alphajerk
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/06/00
Posts: 7950
Loc: asheville nc usa
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3rd year?! thats dense.
one thing i learned is that if you do something you dont think will work, it surprizes you how well it actually does. thats probably what attracts me most to doing this. there are no right or wrong ways to do something aside from physical limitations but even those can be creatively stretched from time to time.
i think you can teach listening in school with the proper atmosphere, but that isnt legal here in the states. when i went to school for recording, i found little offered with students who didnt really care. everything was so vague. but that was just my space in time. really you cant teach someone something that doesnt want to learn it. if you really do, you most likely will figure it out yourself rather than sitting in a classroon waiting for a teacher to get to the topic.
what was the moment for all of those here when they knew or got bitten with this insane virus? its funny cause my parents, like a lot, dont know why i must do music but i gotta blame my mom for making me take those damn piano lessons. if normal people knew what i spent on it, they'd have an intervention. addictions are good for this job and complusion is key.
i do think you are born with it though to a certain extent. yes, you can learn it but i think the ones who do it compulsively are the ones drawn to it naturally. fate. whatever. god, you'd have to be to listen to the same damn song over and over and over and still get excited when you hear it on the radio or playing out of someones car as they drive by.
thats my new dollar coins worth anyways (inflation, aint it a bitch)
_________________________
alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#974085 - 05/10/00 10:49 AM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Pro Jules
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/11/00
Posts: 2729
Loc: A yank living in London, UK si...
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As a kid I grew up with a family hi fi amp from Acoustic Research it had Mono, stereo and a wierd "NULL" stetting. In Null you got to hear wierd stuff like - just the reverb and the odd guitar or backing vocal. Listening to Exile on Main Street by the Stones on it was a favorite pastime! My Father played Baroque classical and the Beach Boys all the time. Both have HEAPS of 'counterpoint melody' I guess this was early ear training for me.
While standing outside a busy pub on a Friday night enjoying a drink on a crowded pavement (ok, sidewalk) with some friends with tons of noise around (traffic, general TGIF hubub) I heard a tiny 'tinkle' noise, I looked down and saw an earing, a teeny, tiny silver hoop one, it had fallen from the ear of one of the women in our party, (she haddn't noticed) every one (includining an engineer pal of mine) was astounded that I could hear that in such a noisy environment.
I'm no the only one in the audio buisness with wierd listening skills, it's the 'indavidual' & the "whole' that we multitask daily.
So I suggest you:
A) buy a Beach Boys "best of" collection and try to figure out.what each musical part is doing. (and what the backing vocal 'lyrics" would be if written out)
B) get some Baroque Harpsichord music and get to the point of 'knowing' the 'riffs' and when they appear.
That was my ear training.
Jules
[This message has been edited by Julian standen (edited 05-10-2000).]
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#974086 - 05/10/00 10:49 AM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Pro Jules
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/11/00
Posts: 2729
Loc: A yank living in London, UK si...
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Good morning, It's "double post day", again!
[This message has been edited by Julian standen (edited 05-10-2000).]
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#974087 - 05/10/00 02:46 PM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Beanstudio Mastering
Senior Member
Registered: 01/20/00
Posts: 39
Loc: Wayne, NJ USA
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I would say that honesty plays a large role in learning to listen. One has to be sure that this is what they want to do for their life. If you actually like what you do, magic can happen.
To learn we need to be open-minded! I learn from people who send me demos all the time. Just how did they make a slammin cd with just a VS-880 on the first try? I ask. I don't care if I can man a Neve, I want to know what other people have found out in their vacuum.
I try to keep things simple to see the real way sounds and frequencies interact with each other. If you clog up all the space, you cant critique it at all and it is just mud. Then when I get a really complicated job to master, like an overpowering bass, and weak kick, I can accept the challenge.
What actual sounds do instruments make, and exactly where are they is a good question. To find out, I had to objectively pull things apart, and keep the ego out by asking questions every day.
You really can't learn to listen if you don't think that other people's music and style are important. This is the clients life here and there is no such thing as helping a person too much. Really listening and not judging the person or their style is of mondo importance. Today I may be doing a restoration for the Chicago Symphony with a 65 year old Maestro at my side, and later I will work on a hip-hop demo from Newark.
I had to find elements of each style of music that I could honestly appreciate to be able to know the how and why of what I am hearing. You need to think about the other guys career to learn to hear.
As far as identifying different pieces of gear by ear, I may have a good shot at it, but it matters little to me. I don't care what made it, I care about who made it, and why.
Alot of the impressions music makes on your body come from so much more than just your ears. Sound is an angel, or a sneaky devil. When I hear a person blasting a walkman on their head on the streets of NY, I wonder. The treble is killing me at five feet away! Why don't they know how bad that is? They are smart enough to cross the street, but kill the ears anyway. I am trying to make a point about how music can fool you. The person hears all of the bottom and mids in the headset, but I only hear the painful highs. The listener is fooled into thinking that the highs arent dangerous because it is masked by all of the other frequencies that simultaneously bombard their heads.
So when I listen to gear I only think about if it can help enhance the music, or does it serve it poorly, the name imprinted on the front means nothing. In fact, some of my gear has no name on it at all!
If you find yourself obsessed with music production, then you will learn the art and love of it all as it really is. If your dad owns the studio and you would really rather paint, then put down the phones and grab those brushes!
Jim
=================================
Jim De Salvo
beanstudio@hotmail.com
Beanstudio Mastering
Audio Editing & Sonic Restoration
http://beanstudio.homepage.com
"Nobody Hears It Better"
=================================
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#974088 - 05/12/00 06:29 AM
Re: Learning To Listen
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gdubbs
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Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 12
Loc: Morgan Hill, CA 95037 USA
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well......experience always makes the difference. youll find over time you get better (or should). be patient and open minded to different styles of music. when i started i spent many hours trying to figure the how and why of many recordings.
what i learned aside from the technical end of it all was the skill and importance of music arranging. knobs and boxes can do magic things to fix or enhance, but a band or producer that knows how to write and arrange makes all the difference in the world. its fun to eventually be able to sit back and enjoy tracking good musicians. not much knob twisting or "what was that" going on. be patient. youll notice over time youre improvement. each tracking and mix session getting a bit better. critiquing yourself and allowing others to do so as well will help you tremendously. i do strongly believe that an engineer who also knows music and instruments will survive much longer in this business. you will undoubtedly track many, many bad bands who want you to make them sound like???? be objective....i used to call these types of situations a "turd". and i learned to polish that "turd". good luck and persevere.
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#974089 - 05/14/00 12:13 PM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Ken Favata
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Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 25
Loc: Pittsford, N.Y.
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One apect of listening that I find amazing and important has to do with being able to identify those happy sonic accidents that seem to occur frequently. If you are so set on going where you wanted to go then you could easily miss these wonderful sonic spaces that you are sure to stumble across.
Sometimes scrollin through my effects pre-sets to get to the one I had in mind results in a 2 second snippet on another pre-set that takes me to a different place and works perfectly. Voicing sequencer parts by scrolling through synth or sampler pre-sets is another example.
To me the act of creating and recording /mixing are inseperable. Keep your mind open. Dont erease things pre-maturely and make a point to just poke around a bit to see where it leads.
I know this style of working is not for everyone - but some of my best results come unexpectedly. If I were limited to aiming for the sound in my head and ignored everthing else these things would never make it to "tape".
Cheers,
Ken
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#974090 - 05/14/00 05:29 PM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Anonymous
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And on this special day, shouldn't it be noted that the name of this Topic is exactly what our moms begged us to do in our youth?
Ironic that after all these years we're still atempting to do just that.
Mom was right.
Rich...
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#974091 - 05/15/00 03:48 AM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Ed Cherney
Gold Member
Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 547
Loc: Venice, Ca.
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I just wanted to let all of you fine posters know how much I enjoy, and learn from your comments and short stories.....not only on this post, but all of them (ok, many of them). Thanks to all of you for generously sharing your experiences.
ed c
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#974092 - 05/15/00 04:46 AM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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We're just glad that you don't spit on us. That fact that you choose to interact as if we were equals is an honor.
Now if you'd only tell us where you got the script idea for ANNIE HALL.
Rich...
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#974093 - 05/15/00 10:28 PM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Uh Clem
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Registered: 03/13/00
Posts: 3442
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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I notice one of the things that distracts me from listening is meters, knobs, computer screens of information - everything not sound.
I have a friend who accuses me of having a built-in spectrum analyser in my head - problem is when I get "setting" conscious and worry about "what" the knobs say versus what sound I'm hearing, I don't do as well - I forget about my built-in analyzer.
I can pick apart a mix on my home stereo - because I can't see anything about how it was done or what the equipment was doing. All I can see is what I'm hearing.
I'm a very visual person and my ears need to create a picture of the mix in my head. Looking at a zillion buttons and meters really gets in the way of this process for me.
The quote from Jason's post above made me think about this as he talked of learning what all the knobs and settings do.
It helps me a lot to just close my eyes and listen. I guess I need to put a sign over the meter bridge to remind me to do this.
So, maybe once you learn all that knob and meter stuff - forget about it as much as you can.
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#974094 - 05/16/00 03:46 AM
Re: Learning To Listen
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alphajerk
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Registered: 03/06/00
Posts: 7950
Loc: asheville nc usa
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ill always turn off my monitor after doing a bunch of stuff for the EARS ONLY mode. best situation is in the dark mix mode. no lights. its good for me to get out of the control room when something nears the end and go listen in another room in the dark.
_________________________
alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#974095 - 05/16/00 10:27 AM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Pro Jules
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Posts: 2729
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force the act to do a hall listen, round the corner not recieving the hiFi blast of the monitors, thats my final check, the 'outside the room & round the corner listen', works everywhere.
Jules
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#974096 - 05/16/00 02:12 PM
Re: Learning To Listen
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THE MIX FIX
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Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 1552
Loc: NYC Area
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Stevepow:
I go for the closing your eyes approach.
You can do it instantaneously, it's free, and it works well.
Picture yourself at your home at your stereo...
------------------
Bob.
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#974097 - 05/19/00 02:59 PM
Re: Learning To Listen
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slicraider
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Registered: 04/28/00
Posts: 37
Loc: Bronxville, NY, USA
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The one thing that everyone has not addressed is time. Everyone can't wait to be a great engineer/producer (myself included) but as I meet more of the better known people in this business I realize that most are your basic 15 year overnight sensation.It takes time to learn those subtle things and to really understand it in an artistic way not just technical one. After that it takes a long time for people to find out that you do understand it and do your job well. You will have to work with many various projects before you get a break, and this takes time. Hopefully when the break comes you will have spent the years aquiring the skills to make a career out of that break.
Yours in Time,
Rick S.
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#974098 - 05/19/00 04:54 PM
Re: Learning To Listen
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Oli P
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Registered: 04/20/00
Posts: 155
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Geeez Rick....sounds like it is time to retire when that break comes....!
Jules: Did you ever bring a (preferrably lousy) cassette copy of the mix to the local crowded pub, and listen to it there?
Hardly a Hi Fi test, but can be very useful for finding out what actually cuts through.
I did that consistently on one album...and it went multi platinum.
Only problem is that you have to drink beer all the time, and might become more interested in the blonde at the next table 
Interesting topic.....I find that it is easy to get too focused on the sonics, and sometimes loose sight of the music.
[This message has been edited by Oli P (edited 05-19-2000).]
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#974099 - 05/19/00 09:26 PM
Re: Learning To Listen
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THE MIX FIX
Platinum Member
Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 1552
Loc: NYC Area
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Oli:
You're right!!
Give me the Blonde, and the Hell with the Record!!
------------------
Bob.
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