#968596 - 06/22/00 01:45 PM
Points for Producers & Engineers?
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Scooterman
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Is there a going rate these days for points on an album for Producers and/or Engineers?
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#968597 - 06/22/00 03:33 PM
Re: Points for Producers & Engineers?
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Oli P
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Registered: 04/20/00
Posts: 155
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Very few engineers get points, and if they do it is usually for co-production.
Producers always have to negotiate their fees and points, and the rates vary a lot.
Your trackrecord and your general ability to produce hits will determine how sought after you are, and thus greatly influence the points you can obtain.
Another factor is how desirable the project offered, is to you. If it is a major artist who usually sells well, it might require you to lover the points a little...but more sales and better budgets will still make it very attractive.
Other reasons may be that you really like this artist, and that it is less important how much money you make from it.
It usually helps if you have plenty of work, and care less if you get the project or not...then you can set your own terms, and give them an offer you won't debate.
But it is always a good idea to be reasonable to a certain degree....if you want more work from the same source.
I don't know if people are willing to discuss the actual figures here....but I guess a pretty common rate is around 3% .
Some hotshots will climb to 5% and some might have to accept as low as 1% .
Of course there are advances and flat rates pr. track ...so as you can see, plenty of issues to negotiate...and good chances of getting screwed 
Would be interesting to get this topic going....lets hear some good negotiation techniques and your general input on this.
[This message has been edited by Oli P (edited 06-22-2000).]
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#968598 - 06/22/00 09:27 PM
Re: Points for Producers & Engineers?
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Chris Stone
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Registered: 05/18/00
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Hey Scooterman:
I think the above advice is right on. To get this topic moving, I am going to contact some of my A&R and entertainment lawyer friends to get their input.
Look for some additional answers next week.
Thanks for joining us!
Chris
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#968599 - 06/25/00 08:42 PM
Re: Points for Producers & Engineers?
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aliengroover
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Loc: Cydonia, Mars (By way of PA)
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I have a question regarding this topic that lends itself to the R&B and Pop communities. When there is more than one producer on a project, how are points determined/split up?
_________________________
If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do suck seed!
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#968600 - 06/25/00 09:07 PM
Re: Points for Producers & Engineers?
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Oli P
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The points are then pr. track.
So if you produce one track on an album with 12 tracks, and you get 4% on your track, you will get 1/12 of 4% of the album sales.
It is quite common to get a higher point rate pr. track when you only produce one or a few tracks for an album.
It is also common to get a heavily reduced rate for sales outside the country you originally produced the music for. Often only half of your original deal.
The different producers will negotiate their own deals, even if it is on the same album.
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#968601 - 06/26/00 06:49 PM
Re: Points for Producers & Engineers?
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Pro Jules
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Registered: 03/11/00
Posts: 2729
Loc: A yank living in London, UK si...
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I get these clause agreed all the time
a) 3 points not to be reduced by more than 1 point if a 3rd party remixes or adds additional production.
b) 'A side coupling clause' (where you get points for all the tracks on a single, (even if you didn't produce the 'b' sides) as the lead track is what pull people in to buy it and due to time & budget you might not have had the oportunity to record the extra b side tracks...)
Now I am starting to ask for a re recording clause as well, (I have a lot of creative, musical input) so, if they re record the track with another producer, after I've done a version, I still get a slice (1 point)
Note: I am moving into publishing, a swap for studio time on spec deals. (what else have bands got to exchange?) Embarasing moment this weekend, I had sugested changes to almost half a verse, while recirding the new part, the guitarist shouts down the talkback to the singer, hey! THESE ARE YOUR BEST LYRICS YET!!! Er....
If I wasn't signing the band up for publishing I would have been concerned for 'my share' of the writing input, but as I will publish the song anyway, who cares!
If you are going to give acts your total devotion, you gotta get something out of them for it.....Managers and labels and even studio owners wont get you your due, you got to grab it yourself. Being timid plays into the hands of those keeping whats yours, GO GET IT
Jules
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#968602 - 06/26/00 10:09 PM
Re: Points for Producers & Engineers?
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Oli P
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Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
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B-sides Jules??
Haven't experienced B-sides for ages! Do you still put on B-sides?
More common to put on an alternate version of the track...like a remix and instrumental (at least here).
Interesting with the re recording clause. Have you gotten any major labels to accept that?
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#968603 - 06/28/00 10:56 PM
Re: Points for Producers & Engineers?
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Chris Stone
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Registered: 05/18/00
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Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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Scooterman:
I have spoken to several of my contacts and the following is a summary of what their opinions are of what the current deals contain which are presently being negotiated by the major record labels.
With respect to Music Producers, the going rate is 3 points. If the Producer wants to give a point to the audio engineer, then good for them. Anything over 3 points to the producer is usually paid for by fees which are usually paid half in front and half upon accepted delivery of the album. Cash rather than additional points.
The key is how they are paid their points. Is it based upon the wholesale or retail price of the record? Is it after recoupment of the album costs (including recording, promotion, packaging, etc.) or from record one? (meaning: to Hell with the costs, they get paid their points (percentage) on every record sold). All of this is apparently negotiable.
With respect to Music engineers, there is a different story. Basic audio engineers are considered to be "work for hire" people who get paid by the day or project in an amount which is dependent upon their reputation or the music producer's wishes and the project budget. They don't normally get points.
Mix engineers, like Bob Clearmountain, Ed Cherney, Roger Nichols or George Massenburg (who sometimes only mix a project instead of producing/engineering it) usually get 1-1 1/2 points for mix engineering only, because of their reputation, on the tracks which they mix. Remix engineers (who are given the job of remixing the song or project a second time for a speciality market such as "dance" or "hip-hop" after it has initially been completed (and accepted by the record label) by the Music Producer/Audio Engineer originally given the project - guys like Danny Saber) are in a different category and can be paid outrageous fees and points depending upon their current reputation.
I hope this incomplete answer helps. Please ask more specific questions, so I can find you more direct answers.
Chris
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#968605 - 06/29/00 11:23 AM
Re: Points for Producers & Engineers?
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Oli P
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Registered: 04/20/00
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Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
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!pleh deen uoy, boB 
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#968606 - 07/22/00 02:45 AM
Re: Points for Producers & Engineers?
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Chris Stone
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Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 894
Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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Yeh, Bob, how about "helping" us with some more of that incisive information!
Chris
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