#967782 - 07/18/01 04:10 PM
Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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David R.
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I was going to put this in Craig's 'Is Microsoft killing MP3?' thread, but it deserves it's own.
This is from today's Wall Street Journal, front page, top article in Business and Finance.
"Microsoft is pulling back support for Java in its new products, the latest blow to the rival technology. Prerelease copies of Microsoft's new Windows XP operating system drop the software needed to run Java based programs. Microsoft has long viewed the Sun Microsystems software as a threat to its Windows monolopy, and a court ruled that Microsoft had engaged in a campaign to cripple Java."
So let's hear more about what a generous, giving man Bill Gates is.
-David R.
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-David R.
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#967783 - 07/18/01 04:38 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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Dylan
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Dave,
Microsoft is a software company. Why should they have to support a competitors technology if they don't want to? Apple doesn't support many of Microsoft's technologies (and vice versa) and no one is crying about that. No one is forcing you to use Windows XP, so let your dollar count as a vote and don't buy it if you don't want to.
-Dylan
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#967785 - 07/18/01 05:14 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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lockbody
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Yeah, Sun didn't want to play with Microsoft, so Bill took his ball home. Sun wanted MS to phase out their use of Java in seven years and MS did it in a couple of months. What is there to complain about?
Bob
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#967786 - 07/18/01 05:50 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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David R.
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Drew, good links. Thanks, I didn't know the whole story. I do still think MS is evil. They will be thumb-screwing Sun, the same way they did Netscape.
"Because Java is designed for use across different operating systems, Microsoft has long
viewed it as a threat to its Windows monopoly, and the technology has played a central
role in the U.S. antitrust case. Among its findings in the case three weeks ago, a
unanimous federal appeals court in Washington D.C. ruled that Microsoft had engaged in
a deceptive and predatory campaign to cripple Java technology." - a quote from the second article.
-David R.
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-David R.
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#967787 - 07/18/01 05:58 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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dansouth
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Java was an attempt at a standard, like MIDI or S/PDIF. If everything adheres to a standard, systems become more powerful because they can leverage the strengths of heterogeneous components. Programs written in Java can run on Mac, Win 95/98/NT/2k, UNIX, and some mainframes.
But Microsoft doesn't like a standard that they can sell, so they invented C#. Nothing new here. C# is a bastardized version of Java, just as DOS was a bastardized (and greatly simplified) version of UNIX, and IE was a bastardized verion of Netscape. So now, instead of pushing the industry forward by working with other vendors, Microweenie is sowing the seeds of division and complication by abandoning a well-conceived standard and pushing its own proprietary software.
The government should insist on a name change from Microsoft to Megagreed.
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#967788 - 07/18/01 06:00 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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Dylan
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Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:
Java was an attempt at a standard, like MIDI or S/PDIF
Sure, but there is no licensing fees for either MIDI or S/PDIF. Not that I'm backing Microsoft here or anything ;-).
-Dylan
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#967789 - 07/18/01 06:02 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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NYC Drew
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David,
OF COURSE MICROSOFT IS EVIL!!!  ... and arrogant, and sometimes stupid.
A lot of shit like you wouldn't beleive. 
If you had referred to the story that broke last week:
Where Microsloth says It will no longer mandate that mfgrs inclue IE ...blah blah... and that mfrgrs now will have the option of simply removing IE from current (ME, 98, 95, Win2000) that would have been a good example.
You see, Netscape is no longer the 800lb Gorilla for them, they (Netscape) is more like a 30lb chimpanzee.....
Anyways, the DOJ is aking MSFT...
"How come in the trial you said it would be difficult-if not impossible to take thie IE shit out?"... "and now it's NO PROBLEM???""...
I'm Microsoft certified (and Novell, & Compaq and HP and...and.. and..).
There's just a little problem of the non disclosure agreements that I sign....
I can only report what's published......
NYC Drew
Originally posted by dxr@iname.com:
Drew, good links. Thanks, I didn't know the whole story. I do still think MS is evil. They will be thumb-screwing Sun, the same way they did Netscape.
"Because Java is designed for use across different operating systems, Microsoft has long
viewed it as a threat to its Windows monopoly, and the technology has played a central
role in the U.S. antitrust case. Among its findings in the case three weeks ago, a
unanimous federal appeals court in Washington D.C. ruled that Microsoft had engaged in
a deceptive and predatory campaign to cripple Java technology." - a quote from the second article.
-David R.
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#967790 - 07/18/01 06:28 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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David R.
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Originally posted by NYC Drew:
David,
If you had referred to the story that broke last week:
Where Microsloth says It will no longer mandate that mfgrs inclue IE ...blah blah... and that mfrgrs now will have the option of simply removing IE from current (ME, 98, 95, Win2000) [b]that would have been a good example.
You see, Netscape is no longer the 800lb Gorilla for them, they (Netscape) is more like a 30lb chimpanzee.....
Anyways, the DOJ is aking MSFT...
"How come in the trial you said it would be difficult-if not impossible to take thie IE shit out?"... "and now it's NO PROBLEM???""...
I'm Microsoft certified (and Novell, & Compaq and HP and...and.. and..).
There's just a little problem of the non disclosure agreements that I sign....
I can only report what's published......
NYC Drew
Netscape was great. Very functional. Now it has had its teeth pulled, (thanks to AOL). What happened to them will happen to Sun, good product will get sat upon by 900 lb. gorilla. (I gave them an extra 100 lbs.)
Last weeks story about MS allowing users to take off IE should have been "why did it take MS so long to comply with the DOJ?"
NYCDrew, no one knows your name, spill some beans.
-David R.
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-David R.
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#967791 - 07/18/01 06:58 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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SFOracle
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warning, long anti-Microsoft rant.
Very close Dan. DOS is not a bastardized version of UNIX. DOS is a reverse engineered version of Digital Research's CP/M-16 which came to be known as DR-DOS. Microsoft stumbled into DOS because the president Digital Research, Gary Kildal, blew off IBM when they sought to license his CP/M-16 operating system for the IBM PC. Instead, IBM went to Microsoft who found a company (Seattle Computer Products) that was able to reverse engineer CP/M and sell the licensing rights to Microsoft (who in turn re-licensed DOS to IBM). Microsoft didn't even creat DOS. This has been their MO ever since.
The SUN - MSFT case was pursued by Sun because of Microsoft's strategy to "embrace and extend" Java. Microsoft built their own Java Virtual Machine (JVM) and Runtime Environment (JRE) that supported Windows specific extensions. Then Microsoft put out software developement tools for Java (Visual J++) that (unless a developer was very wary and extremely diligent) would create Java programs that would only run on Windows machines with the bastardized JVM. Sun asserted (and the judge agreed) that this violated Microsoft's license agreement for Java with Sun and forced Microsoft to either produce Java standard compliant tools or cease using Java in it's products.
Microsoft has now responded by introducing C# - a java like language that will only run in a Microsoft environment.
Microsoft has used this same strategy over and over to catch up when competitors have beat in the market. The strategy is to embrace a competitors technology in press releases, reverse engineer their competitors product (or buy/license competing technology) and then add Microsoft specific extensions that will benefit one of MSFTs core product lines (Windows, Office etc). They did it with Netscape - remember the HTML extension wars? They did it with Quicktime and RealAudio, they did it with COM/DCOM/OLE/OpenDoc, they did it with VPN tunelling technology (L2TP/PPTP and IPsec) and countless other technologies. This is Bill Gates business strategy 101. The parallel strategy is called FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). When you are really behind because as usual you have failed to anticipate the market or your product is a pale imitation of the market leader's, issue press releases promising something much, much better that you are just about about to release (vapor ware). The market tends to hold off on adopting a competitors current technology is something "much much better" is about to be released by Microsoft. While the FUD war is going on, Microsoft then proceeds to strong arm OEMs and software companies to force them to not support the competitors technology - even when it is clearly superior to anything from Microsoft.
Basically, Microsoft has done nothing innovative since Bill and Paul wrote the first Basic Interpreter for a microcomputer way back in 1970 somthing. DOS was a reverse engineered version of CP/M. Windows borrowed heavily from Apple and from Xerox technology. Visual C++, Visual Basic etc were responses to Borland's Turbo Pascal, C++ and Delphi products. MS Word was a me too product until Word Perfect failed to capitalize on their leadership and produce a Windows version of WP. MS Excel was a me too version of Lotus 123 and Visicalc. Windows NT was based on DOS and was essentially developed to get Microsoft out of a co-development agreement with IBM on OS/2 and a product called LANTastic. NT was also an answer to Novell - which until recently was way ahead of MS in scalability and stability in a NOS. Windows media is a response to Quicktime and Real Audio which were the true innovators. Internet Explorer is now superior to Netscape, but only because there is no longer any profitable reason for AOL/Netscape to continue to invest in this product. Microsoft didn't even create IE, they licensed the original code base from a company called Spyglass. Windows CE/ME/Palm PC is an answer to Palm OS. The first two versions (CE and ME), now the Palm PC platform is set to give Palm Computing a real run for their money. Where is all this innovation Bill Gates keeps talking about. Nothing from Microsoft is compelling in it's first release. They are never first to maket with a conceptually new product. Microsoft's strength is that they eventually, by the 3rd or 4th release of a product end up with something that is truely killer. But this is not innovation, it is more like a combination of continuous improvement and strong arm marketing. MP3? - just wait, Microsoft has something much much better ...
Basically, Microsoft builds a lot of me too products and depends on their market strength to get them through the first few product release when they have an inferior product. Unfortunately, the market is usually willing to wait for a Microsoft version to mature rather than punish the company for being such a technological lagard. Any other company would be destroyed by such a lack of innovation, but based on the strength of the Windows platform and their market power, Micrsoft not only thrives but eats it competitors lunch.
Don.
_________________________
Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong: James Bryce
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#967792 - 07/18/01 07:14 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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Anderton
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<>
The weird thing about Microsoft is that for all its arrogance, it seems to have not fallen victim to the "not invented here" syndrome, and is more than willing to buy something it likes rather than compete with it. I've had some meetings with Microsoftians in the audio division, and they seem very open to other people's opinions and products. There also seems to be some defensiveness on their part...the thing is, I think the engineers in the trenches are really just trying to come up with cool, workable products. The "master plans" come from much higher up on the corporate food chain.
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#967793 - 07/18/01 07:28 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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NYC Drew
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NYCDrew, no one knows your name, spill some beans.
-David R.[/B]
Hey David, you asked!
I am Andrew Harris.
Live event engineer, production manager, stage manager, tour manager, rigger (though not certified yet!), monitor engineer, the guy that sometimes drives the bus, packs up the gear, wraps up the 150ft 48 channel snake, the guy that ties in the power to the 100A or 200 A 3 phase circuits, the guy that books the hotel rooms, airline seats, the guy that hunts down the promoter for the $X dollars balance, the guy that pays the musicians, pays the per diems, rents the backline, advances the shows,
RECORDS the shows (laptop, Masterlink and or 24 or 48 tracks of MX2424),
1st at the airport, 1st at the venue, last out the venue, last to the hotel, the guy with the 5am lobby call when the band leaves at 10am...what else?
The guy who brings the girls back stage for the guys (hit & run was never my style), the guy who hardly ever goes clubbing on the "off" days.
The guy that makes sure rehearsals happen, makes sure the ARTISTE - whomever I may be working with at the time (whom I tend to have close relationships with) doesn't get screwed on the road, the guy that makes sure the mgmt company for the artiste is not trying to fuck the musicians,
The guy that treats every man like a man, regardless if he's BB King or the guy that's lifting the speaker cabinets.
Don't take no shit, don't give a shit, not certified in the shit business...
the same guy that makes sure to remind the guys / gals in my different bands that smoke weed they should smoke all they want in Jamaica/Grenada/Africa/ California/NY/Virginia, but not to take any to Singapore, Japan, across the border from Canada to the USA in their shoes, S.Korea... 
the guy that doesn't drink or smoke, or no types of drugs ever, the guy that doesn't ever take medication, unless he's close to blackout pain or death, the guy that use to sling a high caliber pistol or two to reggae stage shows, and occasionally use 'em for enforcement, the guy that used to do "dancehall" shows in brooklyn, and see every show get shot up, where one in 3 shows end with a fatal shooting...
The wife, the kid (coming!), the younger brother that adores me...
The same guy in Pro Sound News July? Nov 2000? in the sidebar for the MX2424 test/profile/review...
The same guy that can't find his ass in a studio with both hands unless there's a stage plot....
In my other life, as I said B4, I install and maintain computer networks. HP authorized sales and (some) service...A+ certified crew, MCSFRT certified etc etc... based in NY - hence NYC Drew...
Not independently wealthy, not wealthy, but haven't solicited work for the past 4 years. Waiting list of computer clients. Ditto for Live stuff (not as long though). No business cards, no print ads. Meager internet presence - site being revamped etc etc..
Later, sorry for Too Much Information!
NYC Drew
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#967794 - 07/18/01 07:30 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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Jim Aikin
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Granted, Microsoft is evil. But so are most (all) large corporations. MS is no more evil than Archer Daniels Midland, General Electric, Dow Chemical, Exxon, etc. Nor are their tactics much different, necessarily.
The main difference is, it's easier for us to see MS's evil. For two reasons: (1) We interact with their slimy decisions every time we boot our PC's; and (2) they get a lot more publicity for their evil deeds than GE, Dow, and others do. Probably for much the same reason Chandra Levy's disappearance gets more press than the disappearances of 100 other young people -- it's a story the media can't let alone.
If you're looking for conspiracy theories, here's one: Microsoft-bashing is a fake issue that's *encouraged* by the corporations that rule our lives. It's a form of entertainment, like whether Michael Jackson is ... well, no need to give more life to those rumors. As long as we're distracted by our hatred of Microsoft, we won't get up in arms about Exxon and Dow.
How many toxic chemicals manufactured by Dow do you suppose exist in measurable amounts in your bloodstream right at this moment? Still feel like whining about IE and Netscape?
--JA
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#967795 - 07/18/01 07:56 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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jnorman
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i think you anti-MS ranters are all completely missing the point. MS, though whatever means and howevermuch profit-taking and deal manipulation, has managed to put personal computers in the hands of millions of people worldwide. i absolutely LOVE my computers, and will forever be a supporter of MS for giving me the power that my laptop offers all day everyday. i wish i had had one of these when i was 10 years old...
there are so many more appropos issues to whine about than bill gates - he is one of the most effective businessmen ever, and this being a capitalistic society, it seems ludicrous to demonize him for being successful. why dont we talk about the record companies that keep churning out endless dreck, or the radio stations who only play for payola?
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jnorman
sunridge studios
salem, oregon
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#967796 - 07/18/01 08:17 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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NYC Drew
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Good points jnorman,
but as it turns out, us humans like stuff easy, and Microsoft is a big, easy visible target. Our good ol' Uncle Sam reams us in countless more ways than any company ever does, that's just how stuff goes.
BTW, Intel, IBM, Motorola, Samsung Electronics and Harris Semiconductors (among others), and the guys that developed "the WWW" are generally given more credit for the rapid proliferation of computer use.
Again, BTW, I've been at the table when deals were made at a record company (SONY's EPIC, 550 Madison & Columbia Works, Atlantic etc among others) I've told A&R people to go fuck themselves and walk away from the table, or simply renegotiate for better terms in various types of contracts.
I have never had this window of opportunity with Microsoft. I used to work at a Bank in NYC (mid 1990's) that has a presence on wall street with over 7000 bodies, another presence in the WOrld Trade Center vicinity with an additional 21,000 bodies, and that company has NEVER had any leverage with Microsoft. It was / is always take it or leave it.
As someone who is involved as a Microsoft Solutions Provider, I have no comment .
It WAS widely reported around 1996-1998 how COMPAQ (then the world's largest computer manufacturer) and IBM - (then and NOW the largest software company in the world) were getting fucked over by Microsoft.
IBM fared better with their anti-trust case against the govt in the 70's to the 80's. Both IBM & COMPAQ had to suck Microsoft's tailpipe.
If you don't know say you don't know.
I still agree with you that record companies and other large corporations screw us over routinely.
I haven't heard any ranting yet.
i think you anti-MS ranters are all completely missing the point. MS, though whatever means and howevermuch profit-taking and deal manipulation, has managed to put personal computers in the hands of millions of people worldwide. i absolutely LOVE my computers, and will forever be a supporter of MS for giving me the power that my laptop offers all day everyday. i wish i had had one of these when i was 10 years old...
there are so many more appropos issues to whine about than bill gates - he is one of the most effective businessmen ever, and this being a capitalistic society, it seems ludicrous to demonize him for being successful. why dont we talk about the record companies that keep churning out endless dreck, or the radio stations who only play for payola?[/QUOTE]
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#967797 - 07/18/01 08:45 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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anthonyraider
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Registered: 07/18/01
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Hey, I saw "Antitrust" and I am afraid it's right on. We have the Millenium ME system and this thing is a nightmare with any software which is not microsoft "Millenium" coordinated - most of the software out there (by stuggling musician's I might add - see eMedia) requires extensive calling and talking to techs..for which Microsoft charges 30-40 bucks a question. Further, Millenium (if you use microsoft explorer internet) pops up with scarey questions like, after getting the same stupid message 10 times, (which has a way to x out, if you look for it - that much is in Microsoft's favor) you get a question "Is the error repeatable?" Stuff like that makes me what to disable the whole thing...Aren't they checking routinely the web pages and practices individual's have on their HOME computers (what about the Fourth Amendment??) in lots of criminal cases??? Reference Levy's PC (of Conduit fame), kid shooters, pediphiles...sure they aren't the cream of society, but they have rights. If they don't have rights, who will in the long run?
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#967798 - 07/18/01 08:57 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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David R.
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Originally posted by jnorman:
there are so many more appropos issues to whine about than bill gates - he is one of the most effective businessmen ever, and this being a capitalistic society, it seems ludicrous to demonize him for being successful.
I am not demonizing him for being successful. I have no problems with people or corporations being successful. What I object to is the method.
why dont we talk about the record companies that keep churning out endless dreck, or the radio stations who only play for payola?
There have been threads here about those topics. This topic came to mind after reading the article in this morning's Wall St. Journal.
SFOracle - great read. There are some very learned people lurking here.
Jim - Never thought this was a smoke screen diverting attention from darker evil corporations like Monsanto and G.E., many of whom actually own the channels of distrubution. Microsoft has partnered itself with NBC, it could effect the news comming from that source. The Chaundra Levy story, tragicly, is only news because the press is hoping for the next Lewinsky sized scandal. CBS is the only network to refuse to cover it.
Sorry, off topic. Where the hell is my accoustic guitar...
-David R.
This message has been edited by dxr@iname.com on 07-18-2001 at 05:58 PM
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-David R.
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#967799 - 07/18/01 09:31 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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Dylan
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Originally posted by anthonyraider:
Hey, I saw "Antitrust" and I am afraid it's right on. We have the Millenium ME system and this thing is a nightmare with any software which is not microsoft "Millenium" coordinated
Something must be wrong with your setup. I've setup tons of machines running Millennium and they all work flawlessly. You have to disable system restore and all of the startup apps (done via msconfig), but other than that I've found Windows Me to be as rock solid as a Windows 9x OS can get. And I am running software and drivers that are by no means "Windows Me approved". Do you have all of the critical updates from http://www.windowsupdate.com installed? There have been reports of programs like AOL (which can arguably be categorized as a virus ;-) hosing system files, but all of the music apps that I've tried on Millennium work like a charm.
Each new operating system whether it be from Microsoft or Apple has always had some amount of backwards-compatibility issues, so I've learned the hard way to never assume that something will work without first contacting the software and/or hardware vendor. I'm afraid that this thread is just another cheap shot at a very successful company that is too easily misunderstood. Again, I'm no Microsoft advocate by any means since I've had my negative experiences with them just like all of us. I use whatever works the best for my needs and don't try to lock myself down to any given system. But you can bet your buns that there are companies out their that aren't being watched as closely as Microsoft that are getting away with murder while we all bitch and moan about integrated web browsers and lack of built-in MP3 and Java support.
-Dylan
This message has been edited by Dylan Walters on 07-18-2001 at 06:33 PM
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#967800 - 07/19/01 03:23 AM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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Notape_dup1
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Microsoft isn't evil, they're just good at what they do.
It's not like Bill Gates is gonna blow up the world if the government doesn't pay him 100 BILLION DOLLARS!!
This message has been edited by notape on 07-19-2001 at 12:24 AM
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#967801 - 07/19/01 04:11 AM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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mr. rob
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Microsoft really doesnt do things better than other companies, thats the point. They may have been more effective at ruthless business tactics, but theyre products arent necessarily better than the next guys, though I think WMP is better than real player. But when they make wmp the windows default see ya real networks. what happens to the industry when nobody can compete with them? stagnation. By tacking things on to windows and using it as leverage to put other companies down for the count they are stifiling competition. Competition spurs innovation fueling growth. Microsofts use of anti competitive tactics could very well have a lasting negative effect on the tech secor. remember the boom started with a company called netscape, hell the internet as we experienmce it did.
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#967802 - 07/19/01 04:37 AM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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Chip McDonald
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MS has one thing going for it in it's favor:
You don't *have* to use their products. I hate the Standard Oil comparison: you do have a choice, and it's not a life or death issue.
There was a time when we didn't have PC's. It sucked, true, but people lived and got on with life without them. MS didn't invent life, and many people get through life without ever having to deal with their products.
There are a number of countries just waiting for MS to be dispersed. MS is the biggest dog there is. They make crappy stuff I hate. However - take them away and there is no longer a rudder, however goofy the steering may be. MS goes away, India's government bankrolls some new fangled operating system, hires all of their programming prowess that is in the U.S. back, and it takes over; *maybe* it's better. Maybe it isn't.
Would they be capable of being regulated like MS? No. Would we be better off? No. Would Linux take over? No. MS being broke up is just the thing a Korea, or even China could use to really make themselves THE player on the programming stage. We'll still have a crappy OS in the end I bet.
Gates runs his business as a cut-throat enterprise to the edge of the rules of the game. XP is ridiculous - *buy* an OS that you have to keep *paying* for???? Not me. *I* have a choice, as long as the sheep don't make it otherwise. If MS is dispersed, Other choices don't supplant it, but the swirl of the world of Personal Computing becomes that much more aggitated and combustable.
I'm still running Win98. I see absolutely no point in getting ME, certainly not XP. 2000 - possibly, save incompatability woes. Incompatability that MS can't account for - *EVEN WITH IT'S RESOURCES*, resources *no other entity on the planet can get close to*. The point being, there isn't going to be a "perfectly non-corrupt OS" anymore, it's impossible. MS comes closest to providing a solution to a moving target. Without MS the moving target can't move anymore; we'll have to lockdown.
That could be good; more interactive developement, and I don't think the potential for what we have now has been fully realized yet - and as processor capability increases the lock on the OS means truly faster apps and more stability. It probably also would mean - as a side effect - less demand for more power, and likewise a tapering off of the accelerating curve of technological capability.
As I said, I'm running Win98. BUT - I'm using Litestep as my shell instead of MS explorer; it's free, and provides as much functionality as any OS desktop. If I wanted I could run Linux. Or get a Mac. OR - not use a computer at all, it's not absolutely neccessary to live (although I wouldn't enjoy things as much). The point being MS has a neccessary function in the scheme of things right now. Evil? Bureaucratically obese in a technological sense and predatory in a business sense - but this is true of any large corporation.
Gates is a target because you don't know the name of the head of Nike, do you? Who is the guy in charge of WalMart now, who buys all of the slave-labor clothes we wear? Gates tried to maximize profits, and corner a market on browsers; that didn't stop Netscape from happening, or Opera (which I think I'm going to try again soon), Mozilla, or any of the other dozens or so browsers from being created. As it stands now, the latest version of Netscape SUCKSSSSSSS big time. That's not MS's fault. That IE sucks as well IS there fault - but no one is forcing us to use it. I don't HAVE to read this forum after all...
The original complaint against Gates was from Mom and Pop computers stores who didn't (essentially) get the same price break the big sellers got on the OS. The government was too big and dumb to realize this - Gates took advantage. He didn't *have* to, but he knew he could get away with it. This gave him the advantage of being able to corner Compaq, Gateway into exclusivism when his only challenger was OS/2. That was a crux the government didn't see; if he hadn't done this it would have been reckless business, and we could very well be using OS/2 ME right now instead.... and be in the same boat with IBM. Ruthless to the mom and pop stores, but he faced an interesting decision at that time, when OS/2 was gaining a foothold.
In the greater scheme of things that's not Nike putting kids to work in China, that's not WalMart making slave labor a Good Way to Manage Your New Third-World Pseudo-Democracy, he was looking out for his butt and made a ton of money off of it. Now he's one Very Rich Cat who isn't beholden to *anybody*, which makes him Very Scary to the Powers That Be. *That's* why the fed is going after him - there's real monopolies everywhere, and private business is being crushed daily (just look at what Guitar Center and Mars is doing to mom and pop *music stores; look at what Barnes and Noble/Borders has done to private book stores; Kroger to corner markets; Walmart to the privately owned general store; etc.)
I don't like MS products, hate their philosophy of Lots of Mediocrity, don't like their software agents conducting Mysterious Communiques in the Ethereal Internet Night, BUT - I like the notion there's this one hyper-rich American guy running the whole show, who doesn't owe anyone any favors, and who wields enormous fiscal power. That's a rarity, a throwback to the mid-period of Modern Capitalism, of which Microsoft represents the ultimate end of the theory.
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I've just wrote all of that knowing it will cause a ruckus. I could write that many paragraphs remonstrating Gates just as easily... The whole thing is beyond my control, and YOUR control - UNLESS you happen to be a Justice of the Court;
... in which case, for some unknown reason YOU have control over the process that WE - the American people - *should* have control over.
The real issue is THE POWER OF THE COURTS IN OUR MODERN AMERICAN SOCIETY.
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New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald
_________________________
www.chipmcdonald.com (tagline inlieu of having a representational page of downloadable music for the moment...) / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
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#967803 - 07/19/01 05:27 AM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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dansouth
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 3915
Loc: Metuchen,NJ,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by Jim Aikin:
Granted, Microsoft is evil. But so are most (all) large corporations. MS is no more evil than Archer Daniels Midland, General Electric, Dow Chemical, Exxon, etc. Nor are their tactics much different, necessarily.
--JA
No, Jim. MS is MUCH worse. Can you name any cars that run only on Exxon gas? Or how about cars that come with a year's supply of Exxon gas at no extra chargs, but NO gas if you prefer Sunoco? What if this car were far less reliable than competitive cars, but everyone bought them anyway to get the free gas? What if most mechanics could only fix cars that run on MicroLine? Then your analogy would be a little closer.
Corporations server their own interests, but they're not all evil.
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#967804 - 07/19/01 05:50 AM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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dansouth
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 3915
Loc: Metuchen,NJ,UNITED STATES
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PC-DOS may be been a direct decendant of CP/M-16, but the UNIX lineage is apparent from the minute you boot a DOS window. I'm not familiar with CP/M-16, but it must have borrowed heavily from UNIX.
UNIX, C, and C++ were all invented at Bell Labs. In fact, most of the fundamental innovations in today's computers were developed at Bell Labs or at XEROX, two of the original MULTICS partners. MULTICS was an operating system project that was never completed. Bell Labs pulled out fearing that MULTICS was too complex to work reliably (apparently they were correct).
Ken Thompson of Bell Labs decided to take some of the ideas in MULTICS and make a scaled down version, called UNIX (a jab at the MULTICS name and a homonym for "eunuchs"). Concurrently, Dennis Richie, another Bell Labs MULTICS participant, developed a programming language called "B" after the first initial of his wife's name. Richie made some improvements to "B" and called it "C".
Then Richie and Thompson did something revolutionary. They re-wrote Thompson's UNIX operating system in "C". Previously, operating systems were written in machine specific languages called assemblers. The problem was that you had to rewrite the entire operating system for each new processor. - Could you imagine rewriting all of Windows for each new Intel or AMD chip? - By coding UNIX in C language, all you had to do for each new processor was to write a C complier for it, along with a small number of I/O and linking utilities. Then you load the source code on the machine, compile it, an POOF! Instant operating system. Pure genius! All of today's systems software is based on this concept, and a lot of it is still written in "C".
Too bad there were no marketing geniuses in that company.
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#967805 - 07/19/01 07:55 AM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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gtrmac
Platinum Member
Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 1763
Loc: Naniwa-ku,,JAPAN
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Who needs more proof! Is there such a thing as ethical capitalism? Labor Unions were originally created to protect working people from being raped by greedy capitalists weren't they? Now the goods are all being manufactured in third world countries and in the case of China by slave labor and our government is bending over backwards to get American business in there. At least Bill Gates is using American people to write the software so give him that much. Next time you lace up your Nike's remember that what you had for lunch would feed the person that made them for a week. Can't wait to watch those Olympics in Beijing! I wonder if the people that are building the stadiums are slaves too. Keep in mind also that only 1% of the world's population has ever used a computer too, -ever! I don't want to just be a jerk and I certainly agree with a lot of what has been said here. I just feel that there are some larger issues than Microsoft out there.
_________________________
Mac Bowne
G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.
Osaka, Japan
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#967806 - 07/19/01 09:05 AM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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rold
Platinum Member
Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 1493
Loc: supernatural BC CANADA
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Originally posted by Chip McDonald:
UNLESS you happen to be a Justice of the Court;... in which case, for some unknown reason YOU have control over the process that WE - the American people - *should* have control over.
The real issue is THE POWER OF THE COURTS IN OUR MODERN AMERICAN SOCIETY.
Coca-cola knows all about that. Ask them how many courts and judges they own, particularly in Chicago. For that matter, any high-ranking seat is up for sale. Ask any president beyond Kennedy about that one.
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meh
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#967807 - 07/19/01 11:43 AM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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robb.
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 06/10/00
Posts: 3473
Loc: detroit, MI, united states
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Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:
...IE was a bastardized verion of Netscape.
not true. IE is based on NSCA's Mosaic browser which, in a turn of irony, was decimated my netscape's navigator. i personally prefer IE because it is a superior program.
_________________________
modernlull, indie rock from the dirty city of detroit.
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#967808 - 07/19/01 12:19 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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vintagevibe
Gold Member
Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 548
Loc: ,,UNITED STATES
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Microsoft is not the Evil Empire to me anymore. If you want to fear a large ruthless company that has way to much control over our lives then FEAR AOL!
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#967810 - 07/19/01 03:01 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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Andrew_dup3
Senior Member
Registered: 05/21/01
Posts: 42
Loc: ,,UNITED STATES
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The Answer:
Turn off your TV, ride your bike to work, turn off your computer and pull out your copy of whatever Ayn Rand book you have around.
While you're at it, sit out on your front porch and play your guitar for your neighbors.
Andrew
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#967811 - 07/19/01 03:10 PM
Re: Proof that Microsoft is Evil
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Chip McDonald
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 4792
Loc: Augusta, Ga. USA
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.. and a few more thoughts...
MS metaphors I think don't work too well, because it's a new concept - computer technology - and a new paradigm, that being the Ultimate End of Unbridled Capitalism.
It's very curious when you think of the role of "capitalism" in our (U.S.)society. This is something people outside my country may not be able to fathom properly, but "capitalism" here is taught almost as a *sacred* thing.
In other words, it saved the world and as such should be treated as a deity. IT'S NOT!
In modified forms it's probably the best system. The problem is that as it is now, it's out of control and acting effectively as a predatory entity. There is no morality to capitalism taken to the extreme, just as there is no morality to an inanimate object like a car or gun.
There's guys on the planet making gazillions a year being a CEO for companies that pay their lowest workers essentially slave wages. That's fair under the system as it stands now; personally I don't think it's moral, capitalism is NOT my religion.
The inverse of it - communism - is not the answer, either. What causes the biggest inequity in our system is the tax system, which the republicans are NOT going to fix, nor the democrats.
The tax system is NOT fair. Why?
Because the BURDEN to pay for the government that we should all share EQUALLY turns out to be an UNFAIR burden, depending on the tax bracket.
NOW WAIT A MINUTE... Here's where I get heretical...
The Republicans like to talk about how it's not fair all the time. Constantly. *Their* angle is that wealthier people pay more in a *dollar* amount than people in a lower bracket. This is true *to a point*, since I know some very hyper wealthy people that don't really pay anything at all...
MY POSITION though, is that even though Mr. CEO might be paying out $50,000 in taxes a year - *he's not being burdened with paying for the government in an equivalent amount*.
If you want change to occur to the *efficiency* of government, the following would have to happen:
1) Figure out the cost of the government.
2) Figure out the gross income of the country
3) Figure out what the *highest* income bracket would be that could be allowed for *everyone* in the country to make with the rest 100% taxable.
This would make 2 brackets: below the line and above. Everything above would be taken until government is paid for, and everyone would have to deal with living off the same amount of income *until* that occurs. Which would probably be a fairly large figure. This would be perceived as unfair, Republicans would moan that it would take money out of investing in research and developement... perhaps. The point though, would be that if the system is going to be so enormously costly and poorly run, *no one is supposed to benefit more than another from it*. Monetary amounts is not the sole way of measuring the "burden" of something; for the wealthy it's effectively NOT a burden at all!
Because of that, and because most all of the people running the country fall into the category of "not *seriously* burdened by taxes at all",
IT'S NEVER GOING TO GET BETTER, EVER. Which again makes it pointless to worry about which Republican is lying about "overhauling the tax system", when to him it only effects whether he can buy a new Mercedes or if he has to keep last year's model. *That's not sharing the burden*....
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New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald
_________________________
www.chipmcdonald.com (tagline inlieu of having a representational page of downloadable music for the moment...) / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
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