#967259 - 07/17/01 02:25 AM
Improving as a singer
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chessparov_dup1
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Registered: 07/08/01
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From "lurking around" it seems that there are a lot of strong singers who
post here. I'm curious as to what you do to keep improving as a singer.
Things like if you use certain exercises, certain books, any specific
tips, hints, schools of voice, etc. that have stood out in terms of helping you improve rather than just saying (though well meant) "keep singing"-that sort of advice.
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#967260 - 07/17/01 02:33 AM
Re: Improving as a singer
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murph
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My first bit of advice would be to take lessons, especially the fundamentals. It's amazing how many people sing wrong, and then wonder why their voice doesn't last through the night. The second bit would be to make sure and warm up every time you sing. The ten-twenty minutes you spend concentrating on the warm-up, the better singer you'll be.
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#967261 - 07/17/01 03:25 AM
Re: Improving as a singer
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Curve Dominant
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Loc: Philadelphia USA
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I'm curious as to what you do to keep improving as a singer.
Things like if you use certain exercises, certain books, any specific
tips, hints, schools of voice, etc. that have stood out in terms of helping you improve
Here's what I did, Chessparov: I had been singing backup in a couple of bands when I decided to start doing my own thing. When I heard my first recordings as a lead, I instantly realized that I needed help. So I called the Philadelphia Academy of Vocal Arts, which is an operatic conservatory, (not a school). I asked the receptionist if any of the singers in the conservatory give private lessons, and she told me that yes, indeed, she had quite a list of singers who teach privately.
I eneded up seeing one twice a month or so, a lady who had been touring world-wide doing opera (mezzo-soprano). She was great, and very reasonable. I told her that I was singing original material, and so she started me with some breathing technique and body control, poise, stuff like that. From there we moved on to scales, where I'd stand by the piano while she played various types of runs, and I'd follow along - here she familiarised me with my range, and she coached me through parts of my range where I was weak. Later I would bring in taped instrumental versions of my songs and she would coach me as I sang to them. Over time, I started to feel like a real singer.
A few years later I called Peggy (that's her name, my vocal teacher), because my band had a Saturday headlining gig at a prestige venue, and I had a panic attack that afternoon, so I picked up the phone and called Peggy. I hadn't been to see her in awhile, I guess because I was getting cocky and stopped going to my lessons (!!), but she was totally cool and gave me some advice, such as relax and trust your basics, trust your foundations, don't try to re-invent the wheel, just let it flow. It worked, we killed that night.
I guess what I'm trying to say, Chessparov, is yes, there are things beyond "Just keep singing" that you can do. But when people tell you "Just keep singing," they are not being lazy or flip - they are giving you the Zen answer to your question. What they are really saying is, "If you TRULY want to be a great singer, you will keep singing, and you will become a great singer, through the sheer force of your desire and your will to succeed."
I hope this helps. I'm going to go back to reading "Beyond Good And Evil" now.
E
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#967262 - 07/17/01 06:39 AM
Re: Improving as a singer
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chessparov_dup1
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Registered: 07/08/01
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Loc: Aliso Viejo,CA,UNITED STATES
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murph, thanks for your response. It actually takes me closer to a half hour
to "warm up" using exercises. Do you prefer using scales and/or songs?
Curve, you're one of the "strong singers" I was thinking of, and I appreciate your supportive comments to me in the thread about does playing
live help your recording. That's why there was a parenthetical insertion
(well meant), because in the context of that thread you were right on.
In this one, however, I was curious about specific suggestions-thanks for
yours here. The Zen aspect of "keep singing" is quite valid.
My voice teacher was a dramatic baritone operatic singer and I studied with
him for two years-it was a great help too.
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#967263 - 07/17/01 09:12 AM
Re: Improving as a singer
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Master Zap
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Registered: 12/22/00
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Autotune
/Z
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#967264 - 07/17/01 11:57 AM
Re: Improving as a singer
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robb.
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Loc: detroit, MI, united states
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though i've been singing in choirs for six years, i found that my voice was actually very weak as a lead instrument. i had a fine sense of pitch and excellent intonation, however.
in recording my voice for a song i wrote, i was embarrassed by how it sounded, but other people complimented me for it. through time, more recording, and more confidence, i've found how to make my voice sound good. for me it was a lot about confidence.
my friend gave me advice to record myself singing as a means to finding my vocal weaknesses. it has worked.
also, as far as live performances, if you play an instrument while singing, make sure the instrumental performance takes zero brain activity to do, so you can concentrate on singing more. generally people have been trained to play before they were trained to sing, so instrumental focus comes first, allowing vocals more brainspace during the performance.
_________________________
modernlull, indie rock from the dirty city of detroit.
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#967265 - 07/18/01 02:18 AM
Re: Improving as a singer
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chessparov_dup1
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Thanks again everbody for your responses to my thread. There's a book called "Great Singers on Great Singing" by the former "Met" bass,
Jerome Hines. Although he's obviously advanced technically, he admitted he
learned even more than expected from other singers on helpful daily routines, vocal concepts, etc. Personally I'm just at the level where I can
sing popular songs keyed for the baritone voice "on key" with a straight
rather than with a reliable vibrato. I'm curious particularly about how the
more advanced singers at this bbs have developed a good vibrato and how they blended their chest voice with their true head voice (not falsetto).
There are some exercises I'm using again from my lesson days 10+ years ago,
however, any additional guidance would be appreciated.
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#967266 - 07/18/01 03:08 AM
Re: Improving as a singer
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Bonafide
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Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 246
Loc: Santa Barbara, Ca.
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Hey Chessparov,
Something to consider.. What makes a great singer? Vocal chops? Pitch? Intonation? Vibrato? Technique? God given timbre?
There are singers, and then there are singers!! What I mean is, Some of my alltime AWE-INSPIRING singers don't necessarily have a 'great' voice.
Geddy Lee is one of them, Criticized for his voice for years, yet that man has given me goose bumps with his voice. Another is Joan Armatrading, very limited range but un-friggin believable with delivery and nuance. Chris Whitley, slight rasp and off key but he litterally takes you somewhere with his rawness. Tom Petty, he sings HIS songs beautifully. Hendrix, Dave Matthews, Lane Staley etc.
Now look at singers like Steve Perry, unbelievable range and intonation with soulful delivery and passion, same with Sarah McLaughlin, or Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin, and Bono. None of them are better or worse but some certainly have more 'technical skill'.
Your Voice is your vocal thumbprint.. It is yours and yours alone and you have all of you to put into it. I think you can sing anything and you will improve. Scales are good for your ear and intonation training but I think you would be well off to sing the songs that you like and feel. even if you can't hit the notes it doesn't matter, even if you don't see yourself improving it doesn't matter. Just sing. I recommend singing what you love, because vocal 'scales' and theory can get very boring and very discouraging real fast. There are literally hundreds of 'methods' of vocal coaching and I think it is a fine way to learn the fundamentals, but out of all of the singers I mentioned, thier skills were not honed with lessons but rather with pure singing.
Best of luck to you, there are never enough great singers or great songs in the world.
Cheers.
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#967267 - 07/18/01 03:20 AM
Re: Improving as a singer
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Curve Dominant
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Registered: 10/29/00
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Chessparov,
I'm sorry if my recounting of my training seemed redundant; I forgot you mentioned earlier that you had already had classical training - I spaced on that one.
synaes posted, among other things...
through time, more recording, and more confidence, i've found how to make my voice sound good. for me it was a lot about confidence.
This is a fantastic point, which needs emphasis. One could almost say that singing IS confidence, because the instrument is so personal. Very few enjoy listening to a vocal performance that lacks confidence; on the otherhand, some of the most legendary singers were confident to the point of arrogance. Think James Brown, Frank Sinatra, Caruso, Pavorotti, Aretha Franklin, Billie Holliday...I'm not saying that they were all arrogant people (although some were), but they all conveyed supreme confidence in their performances. You know you are getting somewhere as a singer when you begin to develop this. You can still be somewhat insecure as a person (and we all are to some extent), but when you sing, you must do so as if God chose you for it, because for all you know, She did!
I'm curious particularly about how the
more advanced singers at this bbs have developed a good vibrato
I honestly cannot remember consciously "developing" vibrato, but I do remember that point where I knew I was over-doing it. Do you cook, Chessparov? Vibrato is like spice - it needs to be applied sparingly and intuitively. You "build the flavors" when you apply vibrato. What you might try is developing vibrato with a metronome. Practice vibrating (your vocal tone, that is) at varying frequency and amplitude rates in time with various metronome tempos. Find what feels good, and try to develop around the edges of that comfort zone progressively, so that you can apply varying intensities of vibrato as the occasion suits.
how they blended their chest voice with their true head voice
Good grief, Charlie Brown, you're getting technical on me now. I was taught to expand the ribcage, exhale in a smooth steady stream, direct that air towards the roof of my mouth, and keep my phrasing just a hair ahead of the beat. That head verses chest stuff is for the professors.
Why not falsetto? Falsetto is sweet - the ladies like falsetto, and it can be a fun part of your toolbox to develop. Buy some old Eddie Kendricks records and sing along in your falsetto voice for about a year, and you'll find yourself becoming an honorary Soul Brutha. That can't be all bad, can it?
Remember to smile and be happy when you sing, practice that too. Singing should be a sublime experience, in my opinion.
Just my $0.02US, hope it helps. Good luck!
Eric Vincent
Curve Dominant Sound&Vision
http://www.mp3.com/TransluxTheater
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#967268 - 07/18/01 06:13 PM
Re: Improving as a singer
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ian_dup1
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Registered: 09/02/01
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Originally posted by chessparov:
I'm curious particularly about how the
more advanced singers at this bbs have developed a good vibrato and how they blended their chest voice with their true head voice (not falsetto).
There are some exercises I'm using again from my lesson days 10+ years ago,
however, any additional guidance would be appreciated.
It is dangerous to think about "developing" vibrato. Vibrato is the natural result of the voice working properly with a minimum of tension...it is a side-effect of supported, resonant, relaxed singing, and therefore should not thought of as an end in itself. Striving to develop vibrato usually only leads young singers to create vibrato artificially, which at the very least means that you would be singing inefficiently by engaging unnecessary muscles.
If you want a healthy vibrato, work on fundamentals, especially breathing and singing with a well-supported sound. It'll eventually start happening on its own...don't rush it.
Ian
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#967269 - 07/18/01 06:28 PM
Re: Improving as a singer
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robb.
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part of having a good blend between head voice and chest voice is knowing your range, i.e., knowing where your chest voice becomes unrealiable.
also, you have to develop a head voice. an exercise to try for this is to locate a high note that you can sing on the piano. play four descending whole steps and sing along. drop down a tone from the original note and repeat. try to stretch your head voice as low as possible.
at some point, you can reliably overlap your head voice and chest voice. that is where you should try starting a note in pure chest voice. as you sustain the note, attempt to take the weight out of the note and add more head voice. as you work on pushing your chest voice range higher in pitch and you head voice range lower in pitch, you will be able to combine the two in a wide range of tones. it's pretty neat when you can do that.
_________________________
modernlull, indie rock from the dirty city of detroit.
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#967270 - 07/18/01 08:52 PM
Re: Improving as a singer
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chessparov_dup1
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Registered: 07/08/01
Posts: 219
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Thanks one & all for the great suggestions! It's in my nature to seek
acceleration in improvement beyond my present knowledge. As Curve knows
now, in addition to being a singer, I'm also a chessplayer (top 3 in US
when I was 15-presently a humble chessmaster). In the world of chess a
similar search process is used to increase ability. We practice "combinations" (calculation exercises) like a singer does scales.
Although singing is primarily an affair of the heart, there are more
simularities on guiding principles than not with the path of individual
improvement as they are both "disciplines" rather than exact sciences.
Terrific tip on using a piano to help blend a voice, by the way!
As I've progressed as a vocalist it's made me appreciate all the hard work
the musicians, like on this forum, make to operate at any level.
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#967271 - 07/18/01 10:41 PM
Re: Improving as a singer
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chessparov_dup1
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Please excuse this singer "hogging the mike"! Curve, thanks for the metronome idea. Ian, you're right about being patient on developing
vibrato. My former voice teacher is a friend of Placido Domingo.
According to him, and Placido's own autobiography, Placido Domingo
started as a high baritone in the zarzuela (Spanish Opera)repetoire.
The way he developed his high tenor notes was using a technique called
"falsettone" (not falsetto!)-I suppose what we call a "mix".
Unlike falsetto, this tone can be fully supported (Steve Perry uses it).
The old school opera singers didn't like falsetto for a second reason,
the air flows the vocal chords differently and misuse can damage the voice. I'm a big fan, however of Eddie Kendricks, Phillip Bailey, Russell Thompkins, Lou Christie, and Frankie Valli's falsetto voices!
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#967272 - 07/18/01 11:33 PM
Re: Improving as a singer
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Curve Dominant
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Chessparov,
I, too, have learned much from this thread. For one thing, I learned exactly how "self-taught" I really am. I know I do some of things that were mentioned here, I'm just not aware of them, particularly the head and chest thing - it's like, "Oh, yeah, I do feel it in my chest up to a certain point, and then it switches to the head!" Who woulda thunk it?
I have heard that you can damage your voice abusing falsetto. I've only used it in the studio for some backing vocals, and very sparingly, but haven't tried it live much, where I'm mostly baritone/tenor.
The vibrato thing baffles me, though. I don't ever remember developing it, but I hear it in my recordings, I just don't know how it got there. I must be imitating somebody I liked when I was a kid or something, but my teacher never mentioned it or told me to stop doing it. With bossa-nova style recordings, I try to eliminate it altogether. I'm inclined to agree with Ian, now, on this subject. Do you really "need" vibrato? In opera, perhaps, but in R&B, house, acid jazz and the like, it's kind of extraneous.
Great thread!
E
This message has been edited by Curve Dominant on 07-18-2001 at 11:38 PM
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#967273 - 07/19/01 01:24 AM
Re: Improving as a singer
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Anonymous
Anonymous
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In addition to what's been mentioned above, you should find someone who'll teach you the Seth Rigg's "Bubbling Method."
This, above and beyond the "normal" methods of scales, breathing etc, will both increase your range over time, but also develop and enhance the tone and real character of your voice....without the damage
Cheers
Rick
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#967274 - 07/19/01 01:39 PM
Re: Improving as a singer
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In Christ
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I have been singing in front of people since the 2nd grade and have been blessed with natural pitch and control. I have been singing professionally for 15 years. In my club giging days I covered everything from Queesryche to the Beatles, Badlands to Journey. For three hours a night in smoke filled bars and a pitcher of beer in me. Never once losing my vioce or giving a bad performance. I said all that because I am a believer in getting advice from people who can produce. You know, don't ask some one who doesn't have children about how to raise a child.
Early on in my career I did have to put certain songs at certain points in the set list to be able to sing them. But I soon gained strength in my voice that seemed limitless and I owe it all to Mr. Geoff Tate of Queensryche. We were covering "Operation Mindcrime" and "I Don't Believe in Love" and I always try to sound as much like the person I'm covering as I can and I could really nail his voice. To make a long story short I began using the "Operation Mindcrime" CD as my vocal workout. Matching his tone and disiplined style as best I could, which became dead on over time. And I still use it. And as long as I keep this practice I keep "my voice" in top condition. But I do think the secret lies in proper technique, because I am around great singers all the time. And I am still going strong long after they are going horse. So I said all that to say this whether its lessons or finding some one like Geoff who has a reputation of being a "mutant" singer and find out how they do it. And take what you learn and apply it to your style. Oh by the way I did take some lessons in college and I sang a warm up scale from contra F# to high C. All thanks to Mr. Tate.
_________________________
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(ASV)
Jamey
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#967275 - 07/19/01 09:45 PM
Re: Improving as a singer
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chessparov_dup1
Senior Member
Registered: 07/08/01
Posts: 219
Loc: Aliso Viejo,CA,UNITED STATES
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I do use Seth Riggs "bubbling" technique in warming up my voice to sing
2nd tenor (high for this lyric baritone!) songs as a "lead" in barbershop
quarteting. In this style of singing you have to sustain many harmony
chords so it's a lot more challenging than normal pop singing where you
can "glance" over high notes. By the way, I do smile (when appropriate)
when singing! In fact it's really only my love for music making that compels me to learn more technique as some genres, like acapella, simply
are more challenging than say 70's pop "singer-songwriter", though I love
that music too. Feel free to check out the "how about a singer's forum"
recently revived by yours truly!
P.S. Buddy Holly and Sam Cooke were my first inspirations on becoming a
"real" singer. My voice, especially when younger, sounds similar
to Buddy's-now if I only had the same songwriting talent as Buddy
and Sam........
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