#967206 - 07/16/01 10:59 PM
Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Anderton
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There's background on this in the "Online Music Debacle" forum, but in a nutshell, Microsoft doesn't want to have to pay royalties to have products that work with MP3, so they're pushing their Windows Media Audio (WMA) standard.
Now, I'm not a Microsoft-basher. I didn't want to see the company broken up, and Windows 98SE works great for me. I'd even go so far as to say that WMA does indeed sound better than MP3 for a given file size. But this time, I think we can really see the fabled Microsoft arrogance at work.
MP3 is NOT going to go away just because Microsoft wants it to. At least I don't think so; there are plenty of programs for ripping/encoding/decoding/burning, whether you end up using Windows XP or not. Also, the Mac's iTunes is based on MP3, so they'll be pushing the format.
Fact is, MP3 is out there. It's established. It's become a standard. If Microsoft is successful at achieving greater market penetration with WMA, all it's going to do is fragment the online music concept. I think one reason why Napster et al enjoyed a great degree of success if because there was NOT a format war. Sure, there's RealMedia, but I've always thought of that more as a multimedia standard, and frankly, it doesn't do that well on audio anyway.
So whaddya think? Will WMA take over? Will MP3 prevail? Will the online music concept bog down in a morass of competing standards and "show me the money" mentalities? Your thoughts, please................
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#967207 - 07/16/01 11:28 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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aliengroover
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I agree that MP3 isn't going anywhere (at least no time soon). Microsoft isn't the first company to want to shove a new format down our throats. Sony pushed the minidisc to replace the cassette. "That's what they use in Japan." Same thing with DAT. Funny thing is...both of them have found a place in our worlds. Minidisc being reported in amusement parks, DATs in studios, etc. Who knows, WMA may find a home for us musician types to provide better audio examples of tips/techniques, etc.? I've yet to use my WMA encoder. Maybe I'll give it a swing.
Peace
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If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do suck seed!
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#967208 - 07/16/01 11:30 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Steve LeBlanc
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Will WMA take over? Will MP3 prevail? Will the online music concept bog down in a morass of competing standards and "show me the money" mentalities? Your thoughts, please................
All of the above. I'm still trying to decide which I like better, WMA is working for me best right now because it doesn't take up as much web space.
Microsoft is winning the battle everywhere...their software is the most trouble free and recognized...as long as IE continues to rule the internet so will Windows Media.
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#967209 - 07/17/01 12:26 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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-
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As long as the MP3 algorithm patent holders don't get greedy, MP3 is here to stay and, for better or worse, will continue to be as much of a standard as a 44.1k, 16-bit CD.
MP3 has no rights-management feature, and WMA does, which makes WMA more attractive to companies, but not to consumers. In the end, consumers will decide, and I think they already have.
If there's another file format which surpasses MP3, it's likely to be a open-source, freeware algorithm like Ogg Vorbis . I think the creators are being sued by the MP3 patent holders, though. At this writing, the link to their web site is not working... (Not a good sign...)
Actually, now that I think about it, as cable, broadband, etc. becomes more popular in the next couple of years, whether we use MP3, WMA, etc. will be irrelevant... It will probably be a common thing for users to share WAV files instead of some compressed, lossy audio format.
This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-16-2001 at 10:23 PM
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#967210 - 07/17/01 12:42 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Anonymous
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I don't think .MP3 is going to disappear - -
I sure don't see a big demand for CD players that play WMA files, but I've heard the ones that will do MP3 CD-Rs are selling like hotcakes...
While WMA has better fidelity for a given bitrate, one thing it doesn't have is a user base. I guess this could change, but I hope not - Gates has his fingers in too many pies as it is.
If he really wants to see it take off, he should make the algorithm public domain and open source. That's the only proven way to beat an established de facto standard...
- Philbo
Tangent Music
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#967211 - 07/17/01 03:07 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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GY
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MP3 sucks...
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#967212 - 07/17/01 03:41 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Alndln
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I think what Microsoft is doing is childish and unecessary since WMA sounds better/takes up less space,and since all PC's(and Mac's)will already be equipped I see it as the most logical succsessor to Mp3.Thinking that Mp3 will be the dominant format for any legnth of time is about as wishfull thinking as the LP will still dominate.Once the majority of musicians realize that will take a little more than half the time to encode their stuff to a better sounding format will only speed up the process.This is why I don't understand Microsofts tacticts this time around,they come up with what appears to be the succsessor to Mp3 and see the need to embarass themselves potentially stalling this much needed change.Whatever happened to Sonic Foundry's format that was supposed to sound better and take up less space than WMA?
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#967213 - 07/17/01 03:42 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Anderton
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<>
You know, you're 100% right. They shouldn't be afraid to let the market decide.
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#967214 - 07/17/01 03:56 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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mattzen
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There may be no truth to this at all but this is what I've heard.....
In future operating systems Microsoft WMP will limit the maximum bandwidth of mp3 files to a low quality....Giving the preception that their encoding is better (even though it may already be). Of course that doesn't mean one couldn't use a non-Microsoft produce to do their ripping, encoding, and playback.....but a large majority of computer users will just use what's included with their computer purchase. Do I think that strategy will make mp3s go away? No. I do think that it can liven up the competition a bit.
Flame away. 
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#967215 - 07/17/01 09:47 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Anonymous
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I think that compressed audio formats are still up for grabs. And Microsoft's play is their ability to place themselves between the exchange of technology and money. They have gotten a few things right strategically. Rights management is the tap that determines whether new release product is going to flow from the majors. They also have concentrated their music codecs on file size. The less it seems like they are giving away the keys to the vault, the more likely the majors are to sign on. And smaller file sizes increase the value of portable devices which (I think) are fundamental to the success of digital delivery.
nobody loves MS. True - but, equally, nobody loves Fraunhofer either. The fact that Fraunhofer-Thomson want money now just complicates things. MP3pro attempts to play the same game that MS wants to win - rights managment and compact file size.
re: Ogg Vorbis - troubles with their server have been previously addressed on their maillist. They are unrelated to MP3-Fraunhofer-Thomson http://www.xiph.org is up and I wish them well! again, portable support is critical for the project to mature.
This message has been edited by spokenWard@netscape.net on 07-17-2001 at 07:00 AM
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#967216 - 07/17/01 03:10 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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GZsound
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Does it bother anybody that we are discussing the best low quality medium for our music? How can we endlessly discuss high sample rates, top dollar recording equipment, etc. when we know that eventually our music will be downgraded for mass distribution?
I also think the feeling that everybody hates Microsoft is funny. Why is it fashionable to hate the successful? Bill Gates gives more to charity than any of us will earn in our lifetime. He supports more families than almost any other corporation in history. Last time I looked, he also invested in Apple to keep the company viable. Monopoly? Try to buy a Chevy without a Delco radio in it. Try to buy a Ford without a Motorola radio in it. All corporations make deals if they bundle a product. Try to get a job in an office without having MS Office experience. He has taken a small company to the top of the ladder and everybody hates him for it...pretty funny when we all wish we had his problems.
MP3 and all the others will do the Beta/VHS dance and the public will decide...and our music will suffer from downgraded quality and succeed because of enhanced exposure..go figger.
------------------
Mark G.
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Mark G.
"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs
"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson
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#967217 - 07/17/01 03:15 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Dylan
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The format wars are just heating up, and you can be sure that it will be a while before any one format will be king. To be honest, I'm glad that MP3 is getting some competition since I'm not all that impressed with the quality that it offers. Personally, I want to see a lossless format develop that still offers competitive compression ratios. All of this lossly stuff is okay for web streaming, but I refuse to pay for anything that is less than CD quality.
-Dylan
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#967218 - 07/17/01 07:45 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Hippie
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I think the college aged people drive these formats; if they think there is something to gain by using Windows compression formats over mp3's, they'll dump it in a heartbeat. But seeing as how mp3's is the standard rippers choice, Windows will have to bring something quite awesome to the table, to render their mp3 collections useless. I doubt Microsoft can win this one, unless a Windows compatible "Napster style" website opens up.-free.
-Hippie
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#967219 - 07/18/01 03:40 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Alndln
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But if our stuff is not being offered in Mp3 and the kids have to the extra mile to convert/hear it then they may not be dictating anything after all.
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#967220 - 07/19/01 10:23 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Phil A
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Forgive me for being slightly off-topic, but gee, I sure hate to slave over a recording to see it decimated by audio data compression! It's even worse when I have to do the decimation myself, to make it available over the net. Thankfully, I can still buy music on CD!
If the mp3/wma/etc trend continues, I'm going to have to rethink my production strategies. Perhaps I'll go back to recording on wire and release the product on cylinders.
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#967221 - 07/19/01 09:51 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Cowfingers
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what ever happened .mp4?? it was supposed to be 15% smaller and sound better. that was two years ago. even the website mp4.com is gone to a link to mp3.com.
strange stuff indeed
-starfucker
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#967222 - 07/19/01 10:41 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Anonymous
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Originally posted by GZsound@hotmail.com:
I also think the feeling that everybody hates Microsoft is funny. Why is it fashionable to hate the successful? Bill Gates gives more to charity than any of us will earn in our lifetime. He supports more families than almost any other corporation in history. Last time I looked, he also invested in Apple to keep the company viable.
Let's get the record stright. Microsoft lifted code to develop their Windows Media Player and mistakenly sent it to Apple where Apple noticed the theft. This happened during the Gil Amelio regime. When Jobs took over, rather than be involved in a court battle he moved to negotiate with Micrsoft in a way that best suited Apple. In exchange for not taking Microsoft to court for theft of Apple's Qicktime code, Apple settled for an undisclosed sum of money (educated guesses say a $billion), agreement to offer Microsoft Office for the MacIntosh for some amount of years and an ostensible commitment toward Apple's health, though negligible, in $150 millions of non voting stock.
It's not without good reason that there are so many states, corporations and the federal government have legal suits against Microsoft.
Joe
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#967223 - 07/20/01 07:53 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Alndln
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I'm no huge MS fan here but how come the audio in QT sucks in comparison??This makes no sense.Did MS make theire code better and Apple make theirs worse??Me thinks your info is somewhat off base to say the least.
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#967224 - 07/20/01 08:15 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Dylan
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Originally posted by jtegan@tiac.net:
Let's get the record stright. Microsoft lifted code to develop their Windows Media Player and mistakenly sent it to Apple where Apple noticed the theft.
Hey Joe,
What was exactly stolen from Quicktime when it was put into Media Player? This is the first that I've heard about this. I know that Media Player has supported QuickTime codecs for a while, but I guess that I'm confused to what specific feature was ripped. Where did you hear about this?
-Dylan
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#967225 - 07/20/01 08:16 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Dylan
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Originally posted by Starfucker:
what ever happened .mp4
SF,
I don't know about MP4, but MP3 Pro is now available and offers double the compression ratio. I haven't tried it yet, but it's readily available.
-Dylan
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#967226 - 07/20/01 09:05 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Anonymous
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Originally posted by Dylan Walters:
Hey Joe,
What was exactly stolen from Quicktime when it was put into Media Player? This is the first that I've heard about this. I know that Media Player has supported QuickTime codecs for a while, but I guess that I'm confused to what specific feature was ripped. Where did you hear about this?
-Dylan
Dylan,
I wouldn't know what was exactly stolen. I only read the newspapers and magazines. For a long time I knew that the Microsoft/Apple settlement involved a possible patent infringement case. That was reported in many newpapers, magazines and internet sources for all who cared to know. Reports of an 'undisclosed sum of money' was frequently sited. This is old news, last summer.
More specific information that it was Quicktime code and the estimation of how much was paid that was undisclosed was posted on a listserv for Opcode Vision users.
A real quick search by me came up with this link about the settlement. I'm sure that if you wanted to take the time to find out more you could.
http://www.channel2000.com/news/stories/news-970806-105303.html
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#967227 - 07/20/01 09:09 PM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Anonymous
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Originally posted by Alndln@hotmail.com:
I'm no huge MS fan here but how come the audio in QT sucks in comparison??This makes no sense.Did MS make theire code better and Apple make theirs worse??Me thinks your info is somewhat off base to say the least.
Quicktime doesn't suck in comparison. Quicktime plays almost any multimedia format. Probably you donwloaded a poor use of Quicktime.
Joe
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#967228 - 07/21/01 03:04 AM
Re: Can Microsoft Kill MP3?
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Alndln
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Iv'e heard many files in this format.I think most streaming formats suck but QT and Real are by far the worst.Were getting away somewhat from the subject matter somewhat.What will be the sucsessor to MP3?Whatever sounds better and is most convenient.Believe me I wish everyone would listen to my stuff in 32 bit surround from beggining to end but thats not the case.Streaming media is important but not as much as downlosable quality compression codec.So far I don't think any of us has the answer here and as long as we stay divided the longer this suckass MP3 hangs around.
This message has been edited by Alndln@hotmail.com on 07-21-2001 at 01:00 AM
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