#966808 - 07/12/01 03:42 AM
Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Anderton
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I've been noticing that since getting back on stage on a more-or-less regular basis, the stuff I'm doing in the studio is far better (well, at least I think so  ). There's something about getting music in front of people and scoping out the reaction that just seems to make material a lot stronger. Do you think that the solo studio artist is at a disadvantage if he/she doesn't play live?
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#966809 - 07/12/01 05:13 AM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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spacebass_dup1
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i would have to agree...if you don't take it to the stage and get the vibe happening from the audience you are really missing the point of making music imho.
with electronic music...i know lots of cats that couldn't even begin to think about doing what they do in the studio live but most of these people are at least dj's who will "spin" a cd that they just burned to get the crowd reaction.
feedback from the crowd is a very good thing and not something to take lightly....for me anyhow
peace
"fuzz"
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#966810 - 07/12/01 05:27 AM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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dansouth
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Well, nothing beats a live gig for fun (if it flies). But keeping a band together can be time consuming. There are only so many hours in a day. You may have to cut back on recording or composing time if you're touring.
This question depends a lot on the type of music you're playing. You have to "test" blues or folks songs on an audience, for instance. For D&B, you might be able to spin at a club or a few parties and get an idea of whether it's working. For ambient music, a live performance isn't going to give you much useful feedback. In fact, if the audience forgets about you and becomes occupied with other activities, then you've probably succeeded as an ambient composer.
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#966812 - 07/12/01 08:33 AM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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DC
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I think that live performing is good for you. The feedback is important, but also having to perform songs all the way through is good for your chops and keeps you in shape. I mean your throat is a muscle and if you don't sing every day, you'll wear out faster. Same with your fingers on your instrument.
That said, I certainly don't think non live performing individuals are at any disadvantage. The Beatles quit touring and their recordings just got better and better.
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#966813 - 07/12/01 11:32 AM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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-
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Yeah, the Beatles kept growing after they had stopped touring... You could say the same thing about Brian Wilson at around the same time (he stayed in the studio to work on new music while the rest of the Beach Boys toured). However, all of them had the advantage to have played many, many gigs... I'd guess that they had a pretty good intuitive sense of how audiences would react to their new music.
I think you are at an advantage if you play live, if your material lends itself to being liked by an audience. (If you compose dissonant 12-tone chamber music, I don't think it's as necessary.)
If you don't perform in front of an audience (I don't... There are only so many hours in a day), it's probably a good idea to regularly jam with other musicians. At least, that's one thing which keeps me musically stimulated. It's easy to get into a vacuum of sorts if you're a solo artist with a home studio... There's too much time spent with your hands on knobs and computer gear, not on an instrument. (I thought that's what it was supposed to be about... )
This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-12-2001 at 09:18 AM
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#966814 - 07/12/01 11:46 AM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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strat0124
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Absolutely. It's like night and day. I have an associate that records in his basement, never plays live, doesn't have a band. The recordings are pretty damn good....but, sorta lifeless. That might also be that he's doing most of the parts himself, save drums and piano. But even his guitar parts seem ho hum, however technically accurate they are. I know playing live has made me a better player, no question. And when I do go in to record, I don't have to do many takes.
I've heard the horror stories of the "lead guitarist" doing 64 takes of his lead.....to me thats ludicrous. Sucks the life out of everything. Just my simple country backwoods 2 cents.
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Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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#966815 - 07/12/01 12:04 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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vintagevibe
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The problem with being a total studio creature is that these days I tend to do 45 minutes of editing for every 15 minutes of playing. If I want to crank out a lot of material it's too easy to play one chourus perfect and cut and paste. Thus I've really lost a lot of chops in the process. I would be a much better studio artist If I was playing regularly again but it's hard enough to find time just to write and record.
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#966816 - 07/12/01 12:21 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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d gauss
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i'm not a fan, but people sure seem to like those steely dan records around here and they stopped touring pretty early on. same with XTC (though i am a fan!)
-d. gauss
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#966817 - 07/12/01 12:28 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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-
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I read a book called "Les Paul: An American Original" recently, and it was inspiring... Here's a guy who can play his a** off, plays regularly in front of audiences (he's 86 and still performs every Monday night in NYC), and yet is still a total studio and production whiz (for those not familiar with him, he more or less invented the multitrack tape machine).
I posted this quote from the book over in the guitar forum, but I think it's good enough to print again:
...the modified Ampex [multitrack tape machine] had one distinct drawback. If Les made a mistake in, say, the twelfth overdub, he'd have to record the first eleven all over again. In other words, one small mistake could cost a day's work. With the disk-to-disk recording method, he could simply go back to the last good disk and redo the part. But he felt the advantages of overdubbing on his customized tape recorder outweighed the disadvantages, even if it put him and Mary under far greater pressure. "It made us real pros," he later boasted.
I listened to "Bye Bye Blues" a number of times yesterday and was repeatedly blown away by the production, the guitar playing, and Mary Ford's voice (all of her multitracked vocals are *perfectly* in tune -- no AutoTune going on there).
How many of us home studio guys with zillions of digital tracks and infinitely more advanced equipment can do what Les Paul was able to do in his basement in the '50s? Can anyone nowadays put together an incredible-sounding recording with tons of overdubs where you couldn't redo the overdubs if you messed up? (Not me!)
This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-12-2001 at 09:58 AM
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#966818 - 07/12/01 12:29 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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RecreationalThinker
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I agree that playing live, or at least playing with other musicians, is important, but not necessarily for the exposure or practice. I'm in the same boat as Dino321, who said he spends 3/4 of his time editing. Even though I don't perform any longer, I try to get together with other musicians in a creative setting as often as limited time permits. Jam sessions and even karaoke remind me of the immediacy of music. I find that my subsequent ideas are always more focused and interesting.
Sure, I could spend days or even weeks tweaking and editing to get the perfect performance, but the listener only hears it as a single event. Groove, dynamics, subtlety and phrasing can be programmed, but all of these elements rely on interaction between composer/performer and listener to be really effective and authentic IMO.
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#966819 - 07/12/01 12:36 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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spookmuzik
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Playing live is the best thing a band can do to get tighter. In practice time you can work on the little things, but live the feeling and the groove are what make even the weaker material stronger. And you make mistakes live = maybe a good mistake? Also the interraction between the audience and band makes you hit the one harder (or the 3 whatever makes 'em shake it) and lets you know when the solo is too long etc.
but... this only works if you know your stuff well enough to pay attention to the people!
Julian M
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#966820 - 07/12/01 12:55 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Trash Monkey
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Seems like some of the best performers/artists try to recreate their live sound on recordings-U2, nuff said.
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#966821 - 07/12/01 01:16 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Yuri T.
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It does help to play live. You tend to loosen up when the audience gives something back to you and it helps your chops a lot. When I record my band we track the instruments live with a scratch vocal and overdub vocals later. If there's a good take but the bass or guitar need to be fixed or redone we just replace the part as needed. I really prefer working this way. You get a live feel with the studio recording. When I track a guitar solo I prefer to one take it rather than overdub unless there's just one bad note or phrase that can be fixed in a second.
We often run a 2 track during rehearsal so we can listen later to what works or doesn't in the arrangements.
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#966822 - 07/12/01 01:43 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Scott from MA
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Obviously, I love playing live for all the same reasons as everyone else. I'd much rather be bashing out songs on stage than sitting in this little makeshift studio by myself. I've found, however, that (unlike Craig)playing with a band has some negative effects on my songwriting and recording.
For many years, I was writing songs for the purpose of playing with my band. They were great songs, and I'm very proud of them, but I've come to realize how confined they were to the structure of the band. Even when recording, the finished product sounded like what you heard on stage. Not that there's anything wrong with that... I think a recording SHOULD be a pretty accurate representation of your stage sound.
After the band broke up, I started writing and recording on my own. I found that I got more creative, and recorded things that my old band would not have been able to reproduce on stage. Not that I was going out of my way to make complex arrangements... I just wasn't confined by whether or not something was "possible". I think the songs I recorded on my own were FAR better than the ones I made with the band.
Now I'm back in a band. I'm really happy to be back on stage, and I've missed the interaction with other musicians... but, my writing has confines again. I'm having to write songs to fit the band structure, and I'm re-arranging my older songs to new "stripped down" versions so that we can play them live.
All things considered, I'm still much happier playing live with a band. I just feel a little trapped when recording. I don't think it's right to record something with 4 guitar lines, then try to play it onstage with just 1 guitar. (Yeah, I know, Jimmy Page did it all the time... but I can't pull it off as well.)
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Scott
(just another cantankerous bastard)
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#966823 - 07/12/01 02:22 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Bonafide
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If you come from a live background it really helps. also it depends on how lazy you are in the studio. If you aren't really 'feeling' it while the take is going down, you shouldn't keep that take. It is very easy to say 'that is good enough' when in the studio, Particularly when you are the solo artist playing all of the instruments. A 'clean' take, well performed with good tone, simply isn't enough. I might do the same passage over 50 times over a 3-4 week period until I myself am moved by it. Same with mixing.
If you have no live experience, you will certainly suffer to some degree. Nothing builds chops faster than playing live in front of an audience. the SAME holds true with recording. It takes 'Live' recording practice to really capture emotion on tape. You really need both.
Cheers
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#966824 - 07/12/01 02:24 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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GZsound
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I have been writing, recording and performing for many, many years. I find that if I write a song and we rehearse it to death in the studio it might sound just fine, but as soon as we put it on stage it gets better every time we play it.
I have also learned that for some strange reason, I'm a lot better player in a live environment than in the studio. One main reason for building my own studio is because of the time it takes for me to get it to sound right and not have the clock ticking away the dollars. Something about the feedback from an audience that brings out my best.
My band will frequently re-record a song we did before having an opportunity to play it live because of the new parts and energy we discovered during live performances.
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Mark G.
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#966825 - 07/12/01 02:39 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Lee Flier
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Bonafide, you rock. I have exactly the same style of working in the studio - I don't mind at all playing the same part a million times over a long period until I'm totally feeling it and get a complete, inspired take - not a couple of OK ones that I can edit into something acceptable.
Anyhow, personally I feel I do much better recordings when I'm playing with a gigging band. In fact I prefer to work up new songs and play them live for quite a long period before they get recorded. Then all the kinks have been worked out of them and any weaknesses in the arrangements have been exposed, and usually parts have been added that weren't there when I first wrote the song. Just everyone being that familiar with the song really makes it better.
HOWEVER... some of the other folks here are also right on in saying that recording and live playing can be two different animals, and that you can feel constrained in the studio by knowing you'll have to play the song live. I don't have a problem with doing arrangements in the studio that would never be done live (or at least not the same way), like the example of playing 4 guitar lines on a recording that you will not be able to duplicate live. There are some songs we will probably record that we will never do live (and vice versa) and others that will be done live but with a different arrangement. I don't have a problem with that, I think it keeps things interesting and allows a band to capitalize on the strengths of BOTH recording and live playing.
--Lee
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#966826 - 07/12/01 03:07 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Kris
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On the other tip you gotta be real careful with your hearing playing lots of live shows. It can really put a damper on your engineering skills when you have a constant ringing in your ears...
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#966827 - 07/12/01 03:28 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Dylan
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Great thread topic, Craig! I think that it's hard to generalize whether or not playing live makes you a better studio player, since both are completely different environments. But for me personally, playing live is the only real way to improve my chops and improvisation. I spent years sitting in front of the computer with band in a box, but I hate to say that I didn't improve much with this method. I probably benefit more by playing 2 shows in a month than I would with spending 6 months in front of a sequencer. With a live band, you will never have a predictable rhythm section or acoustical environment, so it forces you to use more of your senses in order to play well. I mean, in your bedroom you don't have to find the sweet spot on the stage in order to hear yourself and the other band members.
OTOH, there are many artist, partially blues musicians from what I've seen, who tear it up on stage but have a hard time laying down a good vibe in the studio. I have stacks of CD's from great blues artists that I am extremely disappointed with that I purchased at shows, even though when I saw them they blew me away. I also tend to cheat more in the studio by pasting together different takes of solos. I get rippin' solos from this, but then it's a bitch trying to play it live. Other musicians I know are good live performers, but tend to really shine in the studio. I haven't been able to put my finger on what exactly makes someone a better stage performer vs. studio cat, but my best guess is that it comes down to environment and what is most comfortable for the artist.
-Dylan
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#966828 - 07/12/01 04:08 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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David R.
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To answer the thread's topic, yes, you don't need to play live to have a good recording. I think it's better if you do play live, reminds you that you can't always stop when you make a mistake. Feedback from the audience (hopefully not the P.A.) is immediate and honest. If they don't like what you're doing, you will know it. I do a lot of bass-for-hire gigs, where there is not many (if any) rehersals, and I get to play with different people. No way I can commit to rehersing a few nights a week, and gigs, and studio, and girlfriend, and still watch "Buffy the Vampire Slayer."
One must think of priorities, after all.
(Khan - I need a vampire smilie face here)
-David R.
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#966829 - 07/12/01 05:54 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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dansouth
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This is one of those "double-edged sword" topics. As a young bassist, getting out on stage really focused me to get my chops together. But my "live" chops sounded sloppy on tape. I haven't played live in several years, but my technique is now far cleaner, in part because I have to prepare myself to face the wrath of the almighty tape machine.
Live chops and studio chops are really two different things. One requires more spontaneity and flexibility, the other more precision. It would be nice to be good at both simultaneously, someday, but I've never quite managed that.
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#966830 - 07/12/01 05:56 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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dansouth
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Originally posted by popmusic:
Yeah, the Beatles kept growing after they had stopped touring... You could say the same thing about Brian Wilson at around the same time (he stayed in the studio to work on new music while the rest of the Beach Boys toured). However, all of them had the advantage to have played many, many gigs... I'd guess that they had a pretty good intuitive sense of how audiences would react to their new music.
Steely Dan is an even more extreme example. Their live shows were infamously awkward, but they thrived in the studio.
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#966831 - 07/12/01 07:23 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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strat0124
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Well, I think recording analog has made me possibly have a different outlook. There ain't much edit, if any. I'm the kind of guy who feels like if I ain't got it down the first four or five takes, I'm movin on to something else. I wasn't doggin anyone who does the multiple takes, I just have a different style. And I know I'm not alone in this view having talked to folks and read about some as well.
What makes me play better is playing alot, actually. And I do prefer to record what you're able to reproduce live. Though I'm guilty of the opposite as well. Again I'm no expert, just doing what I know. To me there's no substitute for the energy of a combo, and if you capture that recording, bonus! Of course we'll cheat and track stuff later, but it sure helps to have that live groove on the basic tracks to begin with. I still love that old Chess groove though, all at once, maybe two takes, no tracking.
_________________________
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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#966833 - 07/12/01 09:50 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Bonafide
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Well, lets see.
Steely Dan.
Cheers.
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#966834 - 07/13/01 11:47 AM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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strat0124
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Originally posted by Bonafide:
Well, lets see.
Steely Dan.
Cheers.
Isn't Steely Dan just two guys though, with hired hands behind them? And the Beatles definitely got their chops honed woodshedding in Hamburg and beyond.
This message has been edited by strat0124 on 07-13-2001 at 08:59 AM
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Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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#966835 - 07/13/01 04:35 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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Anonymous
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There are things that you need to practice to do well and playing live is the best form of practice.
I remember when gigging regularly, if I gigged at three nights a week, the quality of my improvisations(piano) improved dramatically. The band also was more locked in and harmony vocal levels were really well modulated. Definitely our best studio recordings were done when we were performing frequently.
I'm currently working with a group of talented female vocalists. I usually use the everyone sings in unison and multitrack the harmonies. It gets "that" sound. Recently I asked them to harmonize at once looking for a more dynamic vocal sound. No trouble nailing the pitches, but modulating the levels was problematic. These women do not gig often. After trying to get a great track for an hour I could hear that what we were trying to do would take a lot of rehearsals or performinng to get that kind of quick good result and communication between each other.
I think playing live frequently keeps you in top shape.
Joe
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#966836 - 07/13/01 04:52 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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dansouth
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Steely Dan started out as a six-member touring band. The first two albums, Can't Buy A Thrill and Coundown To Ecstacy feature this ensemble. Then they stopped touring altogether. Some of the guys in the original group, including Jeff "Skunk" Baxter and Denny Dias played on later S.D. albums, but most of the tracks on the later albums were cut by studio and jazz players. One of the things that S.D. has been praised for is their ability to maintain a distinctive "sound" in spite of the rotating personnel.
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#966837 - 07/13/01 09:48 PM
Re: Can You Do Good Recordings If You Don't Play Live?
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chessparov_dup1
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Great point Strat on the old Chess recordings! My username has a dual meaning-I picked it for my love of post-war Chicago blues, and being a
chessmaster. Although I love to sing and have a strong baritone voice,
only lately have it been more comfortable to sing in front of others
because of stagefright. So for me at least, practicing at home with
different mikes and recording the results has greatly helped my confidence
level. Being a member of a local acapella workshop group has helped me as
you are forced to sing in a supportive though constructively critical
environment. This seems to be a good route to follow for those like me
where some encouragement goes a long way, rather than in front of the
general public right away. I've learned the value of "routining" songs
planned for performance-that's how the "old school" musicians were able
to record singles and albums so quickly (and well) back in the day...
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You could just see the faces: 
lol
