#966776 - 07/11/01 09:37 PM
How Do You Do Automation?
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Anderton
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There are so many ways to automate mixes these days: with digital mixers, "rubber-band" envelopes in programs, moving fader add-on boxes, virtual moving faders, and so on. Which do you use, and what do you like about it?
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#966777 - 07/11/01 10:06 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Trash Monkey
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Registered: 06/29/01
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Hi Craig and others,
Guess I'll start this one, first off I'm a DAW user Mac G4/450 DP, 2408mkII, 1224 etc. Selling off A Soundcraft Ghost and DA88's to completely change directions or aproach being more fitting I could not go back. Automation in the digital domain is my way to go. I am now so accustomed to simply mixing on screen it just seems normal. DP really makes automation easy IMO. Not just volume, but most any data is automatable to a degree.
My 2kb's
Russ
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#966778 - 07/11/01 10:09 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Emile
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For track levels I use the touch sensitive faders on the Mackie HUI with my PT rig. I just press play and ride. If I don't like the results I just start from where I want to touch up and go. It only overwrites when you're touching them and then goes back to where the levels where at that point.
Then for repeating sections I might go in the "enveloppe" view and copy-paste what I need. What I really like is how simple and effective it is. Also for critical stuff like lead vocal I can manually adjust each word instead of squashing with compression thus retaining a more nutural sound and can precisely compensate for not/too loud syllable and such.
For effects I might manually by-pass and activate them in the enveloppe view.
I always find the rough balance for track and effects , etc without automation first. Then I automate what's needed for my needs.
I love it.
Emile
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#966779 - 07/11/01 10:11 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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sign
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Yo Craig
I have this big analog DDA-AMR console with Optifile automation (on faders and mutes), works great.
Peace.
_________________________
The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
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#966780 - 07/11/01 10:28 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Bonafide
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Registered: 06/18/01
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Loc: Santa Barbara, Ca.
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Still mixing 'on the fly'.
Automation? 10 fingers, 32 mute buttons, pre-production mixing, cutting, editing, silencing and bouncing and up the ass, and masking tape.
I envy you guys.
Cheers.
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#966781 - 07/11/01 10:46 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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dansouth
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Mix automation is all done on an AW4416. Easy to user. Works great. Offline editing (sorry Sony guys!).
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#966782 - 07/12/01 12:19 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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-
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Registered: 03/13/01
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I posted this a little while back, so I'll just copy and paste:
----------------------------
I got tired trying to control the mixer faders in Cubase with the mouse, and the version of Cubase I use does not accept MIDI messages (like a mod wheel) to move the fader... You need to have a dedicated mixer controller. So I bought this trackball...
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?prodzip=&product_code=173445
...and hacked it so that it only moves up and down (not left and right). I hooked the trackball up to the serial port of my computer. (My mouse is hooked up to the PS/2 port.)
The trackball already has a "hold" button on it for the left mouse button, but I didn't like it (it feels like it would break after heavy use), so I bought a Radio Shack push on/push off button (part #275-1565B) and drilled a hole in the upper left hand corner for the button.
Now when I want to automate a fader on a mix, I use the mouse to position the cursor over the proper fader, hit play on Cubase, then hit the Radio Shack button on the trackball to enter the "record fader" mode. I can then move the trackball up and down to my heart's content and even "punch out" by pressing the Radio Shack button again.
My favorite part about this is something that is a feature of the CompUSA trackball: When a trackball button is pressed, the ball lights up so it turns red. When nothing is pressed, the ball is green. So you can always tell if the "mixball" (my name for this contraption) is currently writing a fader move or not.
OK, it's not as cool as a dedicated mixer controller, but it cost less than $25 and it does the job just fine 
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#966783 - 07/12/01 12:38 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Anderton
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<>
Your idea is absolutely brilliant!!! Very cool. Definitely post of the day in my book.
So...how did you hack it to move only up and down?
BTW I think that a magazine like EQ would be interested in a one-page article on how to build a mixball. Send me an email about this offline if you want to pursue this.
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#966784 - 07/12/01 12:53 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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d gauss
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if you can hack a trackball, you should be able to hack a scroll wheel on a mouse and do the same thing...anybody know how?
-d. gauss
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#966785 - 07/12/01 01:13 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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-
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Registered: 03/13/01
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Originally posted by d gauss:
if you can hack a trackball, you should be able to hack a scroll wheel on a mouse and do the same thing...anybody know how?
-d. gauss
My original idea was to hack a scroll wheel, but the scroll wheels I've seen have kind of a "bumpy" feel to them... That would be annoying if you're trying to move a fader smoothly in a mix.
The other option would be to somehow get a larger wheel and either...
1) Wrap it around the vertical potentiometer-like thing in a mouse/trackball, or...
2) Have the wheel touch the vertical potentiometer so the wheels move like gears in a clock.
The first idea would be tricky, because you'd probably have to cut out part of the circuit board to do it correctly. Both ideas would require quite a bit of work, as you'd probably need to build a special box to hold the contraption.
This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-11-2001 at 11:05 PM
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#966787 - 07/12/01 03:37 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Like Dan, I use the onboard automation in my two AW4416's. It works really well. I like the fact that I can do fader moves in absolute or relative mode. Offline editing? I can't believe my sub - $4,000 AW's have it and the Sony doesn't... but I'm not complaining. I wouldn't consider a mixer that DIDN'T have it. Limitations / complaints? I'd have preferred 100mm faders instead of 60's and a bit finer fader resolution. The upcoming 2.0 software (due in early fall most likely) will add MIDI CC capabilities, which will allow me to use the Yamaha's faders to control Logic's onscreen faders, and hopefully, vise versa. Other than that, I couldn't be happier!
I occasionally use the automation features in logic and Vegas, but IMO, nothing beats the feel of real hardware faders. I have a Tascam US-428, which is a pretty cool unit, but it isn't supported by Vegas at the moment, and Logic's environment template for it is kind of a kludge and has its limitations. I'll probably get Logic Control when it ships in September.
Popmusic, the trackball idea is pure genius! It would be even cooler if there was a way to do it with a fader of some sort, but you're to be commended on your ingenuity!
Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html
pokeefe777@msn.com
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#966788 - 07/12/01 03:48 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Anderton
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<>
Actually I wrote a column for Keyboard about this very topic, but you have to have a mixer that responds to MIDI control. The basic idea was to get a fader and plug it into the pedal control jack on a synth, which would hopefully translate this into a CC that would exit the MIDI out port. I used this for quite some time before the PC1600 came out, which solved that particular problem.
To get back to the topic, I find myself using the rubber band (envelope) automation a lot. Generally my tracks don't need a lot of level adjustments, as the variations are built into the performances. The envelopes are also good for "arrangement"-type moves, like controlling fadeouts and such. However, now that I'm using Sonar so much, I'm revisiting the Peavey StudioMix and am really enjoying that as a way to fix mix moves quickly. That's one of the reason I asked the question about automation -- there are so many options, sometimes it's hard to decide which one is going to be best.
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#966790 - 07/12/01 05:07 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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spacebass_dup1
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Registered: 03/04/01
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for me it all depends on the project at hand.
for a low budget rock band i go with the "what you hear is what you get" vibe.....so you better have it together before i hit record.
for the dub stuff i do it is all live real time tweeking...grap a knob...hit mute ect.....
for a more advanced rock or electronic thing i will sometimes draw the envolpe or i will use my mouse or 1600x......but as a rule i try to record things so they don't need "fixed"....ya now preproduction. if i want the guitar louder for the chourus then i use a volume pedal when tracking.
"fuzz"
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#966791 - 07/12/01 05:20 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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dansouth
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Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com:
Like Dan, I use the onboard automation in my two AW4416's. It works really well. I like the fact that I can do fader moves in absolute or relative mode. Offline editing? I can't believe my sub - $4,000 AW's have it and the Sony doesn't... but I'm not complaining. I wouldn't consider a mixer that DIDN'T have it. Limitations / complaints? I'd have preferred 100mm faders instead of 60's and a bit finer fader resolution. The upcoming 2.0 software (due in early fall most likely) will add MIDI CC capabilities, which will allow me to use the Yamaha's faders to control Logic's onscreen faders, and hopefully, vise versa. Other than that, I couldn't be happier!
Not to mention that the AW's sound GREAT! Phil - did you ever get your Waves card?
Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com:
I'll probably get Logic Control when it ships in September.
Ditto. Logic and the AW are two of those very SPECIAL products that you appreciate more and more (and MORE) as time goes on. I'd like to send a bottle of good Scotch to both sets of engineers.
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#966793 - 07/12/01 11:23 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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miroslav
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I'm still using an older analog console (TASCAM M-3500) with 32 channels of outboard Niche automation, controlled by Cubase 3.0, running on my trusty old Atari 1040ST!
Just basic Level/Mute control...but it works fine, even if I am simultaneosly running the Cubase sequencer in the background...with no noticable MIDI timming problems. Plus everything locks to my DAW and open reel deck...I just click one mouse button and the DAW, Cubase, OR deck, and Niche automation all kicks in, locks and runs smooth...HA!
I did get a second used Atari for backup though, so I might hook it up in tandem with the other Atari and lock the two together via MTC. Then try using one for the sequencer and the other just to run the Niche automation...just to see how it works.
Anyway, the Niche works great, and I can easily use any of its 32 channels to automate other things...like effects/processors...I just patch an audio cable.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#966794 - 07/12/01 12:55 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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vintagevibe
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Registered: 05/24/01
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I do most of my EQ and FX and all my basic levels on the Roland VM3100pro. I do all the volume CHANGES and PANs with envelopes in Cakewalk 9.03. I find envelopes are much easier and more accurate for intricate moves than faders.
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#966795 - 07/13/01 02:42 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Originally posted by alphajerk:
(originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com)"""It would be even cooler if there was a way to do it with a fader of some sort"""
ROTFLMAO! i heard that some companies are working on such a device  but i hear they are going to give you 8! faders... maybe more
rotfl!
I guess that DID come off sort of strange, didn't it? Almost like I didn't have a clue regarding MIDI controller boxes (like my Tascam US-428...) 
What I meant was it would be cool for a DIY thing if he could convert a trackball to a standard fader... take the internal guts of a trackball and retrofit it to a fader somehow. Some people can't afford the latest toys, and have to improvise.. I commend Popmusic's ingenuity! 
Dansouth said:
Not to mention that the AW's sound GREAT! Phil - did you ever get your Waves card?
Not yet. I can get one of the pre-release models, but have not done so yet. Probably in a week or so. I'll keep you posted.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com:
I'll probably get Logic Control when it ships in September.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ditto. Logic and the AW are two of those very SPECIAL products that you appreciate more and more (and MORE) as time goes on. I'd like to send a bottle of good Scotch to both sets of engineers.
Boy, you got THAT right! I am so impressed with what the AW does for so little money. Great sound, cool automation, expandability, portability, 24 bit, no data compression, etc. Logic's also a powerhouse - I love their software! Logic control looks promising too. Can't wait for September - the 2.0 AW software AND the new 5.0 Logic software, PLUS Logic control - all will hopefully be available by my birthday (Sept. 30th). Happy birthday to ME! Woo hooo!!!
you're running Logic on a Mac, right? Which one / CPU speed? as you know, I'll probably get my dad's old G4 / 400, and I might want to crossgrade.... but I still haven't gotten an answer re: prices from Dave Smith over at Emagic.
Not to mention that the AW's sound GREAT!
I just had to put that in there again - SO true!
Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html
email: pokeefe777@msn.com
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#966796 - 07/13/01 02:53 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Lee Flier
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Well of course I have to throw in my vote for the AW4416 - the automation is SUPER easy to use and flexible. And yeah, it sounds great!
Since we're talking automation though, I have to tell this story: I used to do occasional work at this killer little studio in L.A. that had a 1" 8 track Otari deck and a wonderful old API console from the late 60's. It sounded fantastic in the early 80's. But in the mid 80's I went back there and they had changed ownership, and whoever had bought it had not taken very good care of the place. In the middle of a session we started seeing cockroaches crawling out of the fader slots. It was pretty nasty.
However, another engineer and I came up with this idea that maybe we could talk the roaches into moving the faders for us and have the world's first vintage automated console.
--Lee
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#966797 - 07/13/01 11:51 AM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Anonymous
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I use Vision or Pro Tools. Don't understand the fascination with touchy feely boards. I use the program sliders to get a mix and then I draw or write the automation into the wave's track with the mouse.
Drawing the automation in the wave track keeps it organized for me.
Joe
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#966798 - 07/13/01 02:23 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Dr Teeth
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POP MUSIC FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!
I WILL DO WHAT POP MUSIC DID, IS AMAZING!!!(there is more food for your ego, yes !!!) I just want some help for configuration the two devices... track ball and mouse. I did undestand (i am latin) the thing of radio shack button? ANy track ball would work the same way no or I need exclusivly what pop mentioned?
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#966799 - 07/13/01 02:57 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Mr Darling
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I'm replying before reading :
I work with VST and yamaha O3D, even though the O3D have its own I prefer to control it with midi via VST. I'll record every change to a saparate tracks (all info is register as system exclusive) and if neccery edit it in the list editor. I'll also draw volume corves (compare to PT it's more like sculpter audio curves ) and some time use VST automatetion to turn controll plugins.
Have to say that I feel like I have loads of control, and after mixing our project in a pro - PT with ssl I was very disappointed with the pro automatetion.
------------------
Visit http://www.DarlingNikkie.com/sounds for free MP3's
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#966801 - 07/13/01 05:13 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Emile
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Originally posted by jtegan@tiac.net:
Don't understand the fascination with touchy feely boards. I use the program sliders to get a mix and then I draw or write the automation into the wave's track with the mouse.
Drawing the automation in the wave track keeps it organized for me.
Joe
Man I can't explain it it's a feel thing! Just kidding, it's just more intuitive for me and the less I have to use a mouse the more happy I am. It's also instantanous so you know right away if the move is good and you can make little real-time variation that you couldn't/wouldn't draw. Plus the hit and miss aspect of drawing levels is too time-consumming for my taste. Plus you can make changes and have access to many functions regardless of what screen view you're on. It just makes for less clicking and makes the whole mixing experience feel less computer dependent. Oh yeah and all the moves you make are still on screen for you to find it organised.
YMMV
Emile
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#966802 - 07/13/01 08:09 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Anderton
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<>
The main attraction for me is to be able to do multiple moves at the same time, rather than having to do one channel at a time. I just find it a more spontaneous process. Then again, I was raised on analog consoles...
Mostly, though, I try to have the levels trimmed properly before the final mix so I don't have to work too hard
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#966803 - 07/14/01 01:03 PM
Re: How Do You Do Automation?
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Dr Teeth
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Well The physical things are better than software things, personally i think software will never sustitute hardwarre. I HAVE NEVER understood "valves sound"Until i hear a valve compressor HARDWARE.
It would be very nice if somebody could develope a single chanel stripe. A fader, pan, 3 band EQ, mute and solo button... is to much asking?
What a autotune is?
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