#966656 - 07/10/01 01:47 PM
what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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carne_de_res
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i'd really like to know what do you do when you're mixing a track and it
just doesn't happen.what is the first thing you do? i mean,the first thing you do AFTER swearing...
out of sheer curiosity.
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#966657 - 07/10/01 01:54 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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-
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I take a look at the arrangement and decide whether something needs to be altered/re-thought before attempting to mix. IMO, a smooth mixing session is so dependent on all of the instruments playing (or not playing) the right notes in the first place.
Of course, not everyone has that luxury (especially if you have a deadline or if you're working with someone else's recording)... If you have lemons, you try to make lemonade, I guess...
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#966658 - 07/10/01 02:10 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Notape_dup1
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I take a break and go for a walk or do something that doesn't involve using my ears. I think that taking a break every now and then when you're mixing is essential (except if you're on a deadline) - It helps to get a new perspective on your mix. I will be working on something and then I'll take a 15 minute break. When I come back - sometimes I will hear something that I wasn't hearing before and sometimes that something is the key to nailing a mix.
Regards,
-nt
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#966659 - 07/10/01 02:15 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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d gauss
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i call bob clearmountain and say, "remember that time i let you date my little sister.... well i could use a little favor."
-d. gauss
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#966660 - 07/10/01 04:09 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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steelandre
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Just a few idea's.Move on to another song? If it's your own production maybe skip the song altogether.I also think that taking a break is the best thing to do. Come back an play a reference CD with similar material and A/B them could help as well. Deciding on not using some tracks, even when it might hurt somebody's ego, could give you a new outlook on the mix.
Don't spent too much time on EQ-ing tracks to 'perfection' in solo but balance them in relation to the other tracks.Listening to your mix on different volume levels, especially VERY soft, could reveal what's wrong with it. Even listening in an adjacent room might help.
Check with a spectrum analyzer or try Freefilter...
Andre.
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#966661 - 07/10/01 04:54 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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nrg music
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Originally posted by carne_de_res:
i'd really like to know what do you do when you're mixing a track and it
just doesn't happen.what is the first thing you do? i mean,the first thing you do AFTER swearing...
out of sheer curiosity.
Walk away, do anything but keep listening to the track trying to figure out whats gone wrong. Take a good hour break and do anything to distract you from the tune. Quickest way to 'do your head in' is too keep trying to figure it out...... I treat it as i would writers block, get away from it come back to it another day if necessary, then start over from scratch, look again at the arrangements,the elements , take out all eq and fx and just rebuild.....
If that doesn't work try a long vacation 
Simon
_________________________
...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it...
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#966662 - 07/10/01 05:34 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Emile
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Bounce that version. Then start from scratch again going in opposite direction. For example if the vocals were very wet and ambient make then dry and in your face. Build a working version (without processing) using as less tracks as possible to really figure out what makes the song work. From there had what's needed to create momentum and exagerate the feelings of the songs. As stated above don't be afraid to not use stuff. Maybe a certain rythmn part that was playing through the whole song is just killer when saved for the second verse only.
Also when mixing within a totally recallable environment, make different versions , bouncing them as you go along. When you've been working on a direction for an hour, compare it to what you had before. Better? keep digging. Worse ? Stop and go back. When I have the luxury (i.e. time) and I've got a satisfactory version, I like to make a few passes under the influence just to see what happens. Then the next day I compare. Sometimes I get cool results that way sometimes not.
YMMV
Hope this helps.
Emile
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#966663 - 07/10/01 06:56 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Mats Nermark
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I agree that taking a break is a great idea.
What I usually do if I don't get any ideas after said break is listen to just the vocals dry. Then I might add the bassdrum. That usually gets me going in the right direction and after that it's usually "GO".
Cheers,
Mats N
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#966664 - 07/11/01 03:44 AM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Anderton
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When a mix isn't happening, it's generally because something isn't meshing right, because by mixing time I would have thought all the individual tracks were okay. So, I look for tracks to delete. I give myself a little time to get used to the new mix; if the tune makes it without the track, fine. If not, I'll redo the track I deleted, possibly in a radical way (different instrument, totally different part, etc.).
You should never sign off on a mix until you're satisfied with it. Otherwise, every time you hear it in the future, you will hear the mistakes -- not the cool parts.
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#966665 - 07/11/01 04:05 AM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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alphajerk
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take a break first.
then come back and mute and bypass everything [but keep all the levels and shit the same]. then brings things back in one at a time [not in any particular order] maybe tweaking them as i bring them back in. then it usually heads in some better direction and it gets rolling again.
if not, i pull all the faders down, take everything out, pull a tube and START OVER [maybe after going to another song or few first] 
_________________________
alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#966666 - 07/11/01 05:05 AM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Philip O'Keefe
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I'm going to reply before reading everyone else's opinions...
First of all, I save my current mix (I have total recall capability) and then wipe the board and start over.
Oftentimes I start my mix from the "bottom up". IOW, I start with the drums, bass and then go on to rhythm instruments, vocals, lead instruments (sax, gtr solos, whatever...). Other times I START with the vocals and build the mix around that (or whatever the main featured instrument is on an all instrumental song). If I've gotten "stuck" on the mix, then I'll try using the paradigm I DIDN'T start with and see if that works better.
No matter which paradigm I'm using, the first step for me when mixing is to throw all the faders up and give it a few listens. Especially if I wasn't the tracking engineer.
At this point, I'm trying to let the song "talk" to me, and trying to "hear" what it's saying. Okay, that sounds a bit new age-y, but if you listen to the song a few times, you get a better understanding of the song, the arrangement, and what the song calls for, and hopefully you'll have a better idea of what the important elements are and what's filler. You should also see what is working and what isn't arrangement wise. All of that is (IMO) useful information. You then accentuate the stuff that's important and support it with the rest. If something's not working well with the rest of the song, you cut it. Is the guitar and keyboard playing in the same register with similar inversions on chords? EQ and panning might be appropriate tools to get each into their own space and keep them from fighting so much, etc. You can get an idea of the things you need to address by just listening.
One thing I avoid is having tons of people sitting in the control room when I mix. If I'm producing, I'll have myself, another engineer (if one is being used on the project) and MAYBE one person from the band. I like having someone else there whos ears and opinions I trust to bounce things off of, Too many band members hanging around is a sure way to get into "fader wars". Sorry, but in my experience, many people have a difficult time remaining objective when it comes to mixes of their own stuff, and tend to concentrate too much on their own parts instead of the song / mix as a whole.
Which brings me to my final thoughts - I like to use an analogy to describe one of the more important aspects of mixing as see it, and that's photography. You can take a fairly close picture of a person standing on the shore of a lake, with a mountain on the other side of the lake behind them and trees to either side of them. Depending on where you put the center focus of the picture, you draw the eye (and the observer's attention) to that item. As they look at the picture, they take in the entire scene, but they focus / concentrate on the primary subject of the picture... and while focused on that, they really can't see ultra fine details in the mountain behind the lake, or the trees on either side of the person standing on the lakeshore. The picture wouldn't be as balanced without the lake and mountain, nor as well framed without the trees, so while they're important, they are not the main features. The person is.
With mixes, IMO it's a similar concept. Your eyes can only focus well on one thing at a time - maybe two. Your ears are similar. You can't concentrate intently on the timbre and pattern of the kick drum while trying to write down the lyrics at the same time. Try it with a song you're unfamiliar with sometime! For the average listener it's a very difficult thing to do.
So, IMO, you have the "center focus" of the mix, and that's ALWAYS highlighted and featured... but the center focus can change from moment to moment... and my job as a mixing engineer is to determine what is the most important element of the song from moment to moment and to bring it out, while also making sure the other elements support and enhance it.
Okay, there's my approach. If I'm stuck, I probably didn't do a good enough job in my initial listening session. Either that, or the arrangement SUX and is beyond redemption.  But even pretty overblown arrangements can be paired down and made to "work". IMO, arrangements are so often overlooked by bands - insofar as making them work for the song. A great arrangement will SHOUT at you in the listening session and mixing it is a no-brainer. It will almost mix itself.
I live for great arrangements of great songs performed by good musicians with loads of heart and soul. THOSE projects make me look like a genius and are paradoxically, the easiest (and most fun) to work on.
I hope that some of this philosophical babble gives you some ideas that will help with your mix. Good luck.
Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html
email: pokeefe777@msn.com
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#966667 - 07/11/01 05:14 AM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Okay, I'm back, and I've read everyone else's posts... good call regarding getting away for a few minutes and take a break. Same with the comments about referencing other mixes, etc.
One other thing I thought of is... go back and listen to any scratch / rough mixes that were done. Ever notice how sometimes they sound better than some finals.. there's often a great feel to them? IMO, that's often because they were done quickly without being OVER-polished, and the most improtant elements tend to get emphasised without getting bogged down in overprocessing and extraneous "supporting" parts. Sometimes referring back to those rough mixes can remind you of what's important in the song, and what everyone was trying to shoot for sonically.
Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html
email: pokeefe777@msn.com
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#966668 - 07/11/01 09:34 AM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Mr Darling
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I love how the border between mixing and producing get blurry these days , but it is also why I don't like other people mixing our stuff.
I have to say, best advice it take a break, short one for starter and few days if it realy dosn't work ('Deadlone' never herd of the term - )
I don't like to listen to referance cd's (unless to comper the buttom end or so) and I don't agree that if you stuck it means the songs sux. Some times we just temporerly blind - could be our mood or whatever.
I do love to clear everythingh and start from clean (fully recallable) and maybe look back at times and copy the stuff I realy liked.
The main key is, if you trying to hard to achive something - you might get stuck - let the song lead you in the right direction (that why a long break is good - you loos you plan and you can follow song)
And last, only mix a song you like or enjoy mixing
------------------
Visit http://www.DarlingNikkie.com/sounds for free MP3's
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#966669 - 07/11/01 12:24 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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DC
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Mr. Phil O'Keefe, excellent post! I especially liked the painting analogy. The whole business about paying attention to one or two things at once reminds me of my partner and myself. She's really into words and melodies and has all these comments about what a song is saying lyrically on first listen. Me, I'm still sorting how the bass part and rhythm guitar are working against the drums and piano etc. I never even hear the words until the third or fourth listen, but oh well...
Usually when I get stuck it's an arrangement problem. I've got a solid rhythm section and a great vocal but it just isn't groovin', still needs something. We recently completed a tune like this which had a friend on drums, my partner on lead vocals with harmony in places and answer vocals in places and I had bass, guitars, piano and organ going. Couldn't sort a solo (instrument or part) and the feel just wasn't quite right. First we sorted that the 'real' drums weren't feeling quite right so ended up putting the midi drums back in in the backgroung and this helped a bunch, but still not there. So I finally pulled out my rusty Mark VI and blew some 'dum da da's' in harmony and viola! it grooved, the songs happenin! So sometimes it's as simple as adding an incidental sax part to gel the rest of what's going on. Once the rhythm section was working, a guitar solo just poured out of me in a take or two which fit just right.
Once I've got a groovin' arrangement, it's a piece of cake to mix. Just get things close and then start taking the thing to other environments besides my three sets of studio monitors till it sounds right everywhere.
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#966670 - 07/11/01 04:20 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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carne_de_res
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well,lots of good advice here.the pokeefe post i liked very much.
yesterday i just realized i have approached some of my
mixes in the wrong way:i wanted the listener to be able to hear
all of the instruments in the song AT FIRST LISTEN and that sucked,because
in the end the mixes sounded messy and muddy.all of the different
parts in the mix were kind of "fighting for attention" and clashed against each other.
i guess it's a very common mistake for beginners like me.i hope so.
he!
also,are there any guidelines to create a three dimensional space in a mix?
that is my main concern,having the listener being able to picture the band playing right in front of him...or,even better,"around" him...
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#966671 - 07/11/01 04:54 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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-
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Originally posted by carne_de_res:
i wanted the listener to be able to hear
all of the instruments in the song AT FIRST LISTEN and that sucked,because
in the end the mixes sounded messy and muddy.all of the different
parts in the mix were kind of "fighting for attention" and clashed against each other.
I'm sure you'll find just as many people who agree as well as disagree with this philosophy, but I try to make sure the arrangement is pretty much locked into place before mixing. I like when the creative forces behind the song (the producer and artist) envision how the song will sound before a single note is recorded.
I've seen other people record where they'll track *lots* of overdubs... To the point where the overdubs might sound cool when soloed or combined with a few other instruments, but don't contribute a whole lot to the big picture. In a situation like that, sometimes you can make a mix work by fading individual parts in and out or eliminating parts altogether... But it never sounds as good as if the artist or producer sat in a quiet room before the tracks were cut, imagined how the song should be arranged, and then cut all of the tracks with that concept in mind.
The problem you seem to be having with your mix isn't limited to beginners... I forgot which Madonna song it was (it was one of her late '80s hits, I think), but the arrangement sounded like it was built the way I described above -- like they did a million instrument overdubs and gave each one of them their own few seconds in the sun. I read an interview with one of the producers and he admitted that the production for that particular song went through many, many revisions for whatever reason... The finished product sounded like it, unfortunately.
Quincy Jones said that when recording, you should "leave enough room for God to walk through the room" -- meaning, as methodical as you have to be to put a recording together ("like painting a 747 with a Q-Tip", which is another Quincyism), you still should leave a window of opportunity for something cool to happen, like when you're mixing. You just don't want to leave the window open too wide, that's all...
It is possible to come up with something inspiring in the arrangement when you're actually mixing (and I wish it'd happen more often for me), but as a rule I don't rely on it. For me, making a mix sound good starts before the first drum sound gets recorded... If the initial concept for the arrangement wasn't right (or wasn't planned at all), then it's a real uphill battle to get it sounding good in a mix.
My 0.0000002...
This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-11-2001 at 02:06 PM
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#966672 - 07/11/01 04:54 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Emile
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by carne_de_res:
parts in the mix were kind of "fighting for attention" and clashed against each other.
i guess it's a very common mistake for beginners like me.i hope so.
he!
Exactly, listen to great mixes of songs you like. Often a lot of the parts are barely audible and confuse yet important.
also,are there any guidelines to create a three dimensional space in a mix?
Well for starters, things that are far away have less high freq. content and vice-versa. So keeping that in mind you can play with EQ for the depth placement of things along with reverbs. Using very short delays on things messes with the brain perceptions and can really expand the width of things (though not very mono compatible). Of course: panning. Just keep in mind that not every elemnt of the mix has to be wide and full HI-FI sounding. You have to give each part its place. Sometimes certain track will sound very shitty when soloed but within the mix that's all that needed. For example on a distorted guitar track it's very common to cut everything below 400 Hz and above 8Khz. But as a guitarist playing by myself I might not like that sound yet in a mix along with other instrument it's a different story.
Emile
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#966673 - 07/11/01 05:28 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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David R.
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Take a break. Walk around the block. If one of the reasons the mix isn't coming together is because the client is there, micro-managing while asking you to explain what a compressor does, don't walk with him/her.
Subtractive mixing works better for me than adding more reverb or finding a sweet spot for each of the seven guitar tracks.
-David R.
_________________________
-David R.
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#966674 - 07/12/01 09:12 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Hippie
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Sometimes it just sucks and there *is* no helping it. Its good to be critical of your recordings. It assures quality control. Not all of our recordings will be awesome; -that would be nice.
-Hippie
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In two days, it won't matter.
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#966675 - 07/13/01 11:16 AM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Master Zap
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I do what Brian Eno did and pull an Oblique Stratgy card.
/Z
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#966676 - 07/13/01 01:50 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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carne_de_res
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oblique strategy,yes,that could be fun...
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#966677 - 07/13/01 02:07 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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-
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I once talked a manager of a local video store into giving me a bunch of plastic sleeves (which the video store membership cards would go into). I printed out the Oblique Strategy cards so they were almost like playing cards -- a nice pattern on one side, the tip on the other side. Then I put each card into the sleeve and ran them through the heat press thingee... The cards look great and are virtually indestructible.
After all that work, and several years later, I still have yet for the cards to help me in a recording situation. I love Eno's work and his philosophies, and the cards are a great idea, but they never worked for me.
What did work at one point was a quick computer program I wrote which would randomly pick out a production or mixing trick that I really liked. I had a couple hundred tricks in the program, and it was nice to be able to shake up my current line of thinking with a production idea out in left field.
Of course, nobody but myself would be able to decipher the tricks ("Put in a seagull guitar like in the song xxxx"), but when the program gave me a trick, I could hear how the trick would work because I knew exactly which song and which effect I was referring to.
I don't use that program any more (I'm now more interested in imagining most of the production before I record anything), but perhaps compiling your own database of production/arranging tricks might help when you get stuck. You wouldn't need to write a computer program, either -- a box of 3x5" index cards would work just fine.
This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-13-2001 at 11:13 AM
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#966678 - 07/13/01 02:50 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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sign
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Phil you rock man, you are so right!!
Making music, arranging music, play it, record it and mixing it is difficult. One must have the talent, like painting or making good photographs.
You just said it, everybody can buy a first class camera, but few make first class pictures with it I suppose.
Carne_de_res
When mixing I start with a drum sound, then I add a good bas, next geetar's, keyboards and percussion etc.
In case there are distorted geetars I cut them and do the vocals.
I make a good balance between the vocals and the band without the dist.geetars.
Next I fade up the geetars as loud as possible without loosing details from the rest of the instruments.
When it doesn't work cut the tracks one by one, you will hear which sounds 'eat' each other.
Peace.
_________________________
The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
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#966679 - 07/13/01 03:36 PM
Re: what's the 1st thing you do when you're stuck with a mix?
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Tedster
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Originally posted by d gauss:
i call bob clearmountain and say, "remember that time i let you date my little sister.... well i could use a little favor."
-d. gauss
Typical dgauss response...HAHAHAHAHAHA...
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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