#966472 - 07/10/01 04:14 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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rold
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hmm...Maybe I should rephrase the question: Where are your mains pointed?
Do they crosseye? Do they sound good that way?
Anyone?
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#966473 - 07/10/01 05:38 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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Emile
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I can't answer that (I don't have mains) but the question is indeed clearer that way Rold!
Emile
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#966475 - 07/10/01 08:56 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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Emile
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Montreal's great when it's not raining. But the weather is very fucked up this year, not very season related. Anyhow on the subject...
Bringing up the Haas effect has me wondering how far behind from the mix position is the back wall? Have you considered some sort of diffusion setup for the back wall.
Geeze I'm no designer and have no experience working with mains, all I know about this is from books. Might want to ask some of the major leaguers on Chris Stone's and George Massenburg's forum also. I think it's a relevent question and I haven't run accross it yet.
Emile
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#966477 - 07/11/01 03:30 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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sign
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Yo Harold
Thanks for the e-mail. I have searched in my memory and found what I was looking for. You will find much info about studio design on Fletcher's website http://www.mercenary.com in 'links'.
My mains are crossing just between the engineer's and the producer/customer's couch.
Peace.
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The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
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#966478 - 07/11/01 03:57 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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rold
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Thanks a million sign! Will have a look at that site now...
all the best,
Harold
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#966479 - 07/11/01 04:10 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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miroslav
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Hmmmmm...intersting discussion/problem.
Though my own recording environment is more of a project studio and not a commercial tracking/mixing facility...I've had a couple of similar considerations.
My nearfileds are...well, nearfield...and focused at the mix position. But I also have bigger room monitors. and I wrestled with the "best" placement.
The room is about a 14x22 rectangle, and is roughly "divided" into two spaces...the "CR" mix area, and the "Studio" live area. The board/mix position is perpendicular to the short wall(14ft). This WAS the only option for various reasons. The "CR box" area is treated with good absorbtion/diffusion/trap, especially the back wall.
The "Studio box" area isn't treated too much and has a nice heavy sofa against the back wall ("behind" my mix position, but opposite end of the room). I thought of putting the sofa directly behind the mix postion in the "CR box" area but decided to have my upright piano there instead because ease of use and that is the only wall that doesn't have baseboard heat to muck up the piano tuning too much.
Anyway (it gets complicated trying to verbally describe everything accurately)...to get back to the question of the Main room speakers, I decided to put them on the far long wall, away from the mix position, but still crossed AT the mix position. They are spread appart almost the full width (about 12ft) and are about 16ft from the mix.
Point is, my thoughts were to focus nearfields & mains at the mix position. since this IS the critical listening area. Yeah, the sofa is not in the best spot, if there are people sitting there, to hear the true mix, but then, they aren't going to be doing the mix from the sofa!
Also, I don't ever plan on having 10 people in the room at the same time trying to "hear" the best mix. Maybe 2-3, and at that point, I'll just let them sit at the mix position for a final listen. For general "spectator monitoring", the Mains will fill up the room nice...hell, probably the nearfileds will do that to!
OK...just some small thoughts from the gallery.
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#966481 - 07/11/01 06:57 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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miroslav
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One more small thought...
The horizontal spread between the speakers will also have an effect on the size of the "cross" X (and the stereo imaging too).
If you decrease the horisontal spread...then the cross will become tighter, giving the area behind the mix position a more "direct" sound. If the horizontal spread is too wide...then the area behind the mix position might fall too deep "inside" the X...
Man...I'm rambling now...am I making any sense?
Of course, these are just basic geometrical observations...no acoustic math formulas here. So I guess you got to "play with it" a bit?
But, I don't know how much you will want to be constantly re-aiming the speakers depending on who's listening and where.
My gut feeling...set everything for the critical mix position. It will be easier to have someone come over and stand/sit in the sweet spot, than to constantly be re-locating that sweet spot...???
Once you start moving those speakers around, you'll be second guessing yourself..."a little to the left, no a little to the right"...even if you mark the spots.
Maybe you can mount them on some calibrated motorized stands and just press a button...position A....then position B...etc. 
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#966482 - 07/11/01 07:15 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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Emile
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Originally posted by rold:
mains overlapping the reflections from the haas kickers (rear corner killers)
Hey Rold, what are you referring to here? What are Haas kickers like? And Rear corner killers? Are you talking about bass traps. I'm a bit confused.
Anyhow if your planing on making some sorts of panels to (diffract the sounds) it's probably clever to do them adjustable. Good thinking.
BTW I don't think that you can overthink such a project. This is crucial decision making that you're gonna have to invest in and live with for a while. Take the time it's surely worth it.
Emile
P.S.: No the rain is not as frequent as in Vancouver, but it can be 14oC one day with 60 Km/h winds and two days later it 32oC in the shade demp as shit. Then rain for 3 days. It's like mother nature's got a wild card or something. I miss B.C. I just loved it when I was there.
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#966483 - 07/12/01 09:08 AM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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DC
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How about sitting at the desk, and then sitting on the couch and fiddling with placement until it sounds good?!
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#966485 - 07/13/01 09:03 AM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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rold
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Originally posted by miroslav:
If you decrease the horisontal spread...then the cross will become tighter, giving the area behind the mix position a more "direct" sound. If the horizontal spread is too wide...then the area behind the mix position might fall too deep "inside" the X...
Thanks for the addition, miroslav...
hmmm...I wonder what's better for the behind the couch listening position...the couch can be moved forward or back a bit if need be...if the mains were pointed at mix position, where in the X would be the best spot for the couch? Or should I not even worry?...lol
Thanks miroslav!
Harold
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#966486 - 07/13/01 09:20 AM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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rold
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Originally posted by Emile:
Hey Rold, what are you referring to here? What are Haas kickers like? And Rear corner killers? Are you talking about bass traps. I'm a bit confused..
Hi Emile:
Thanks for your response.. The rear corner killers are angled walls set up like the front angled walls to avoid excess bass buildup in the corners, and further kill parallel surfaces in the room. From what I have read, they are ideally built very rigid so they can kick back some of the bass at the mixer to emulate more of a natural environment. I guess that's why they're referred to by some as "haas kickers". They are built to act as lower bass traps, while kicking back some of the upper bass and dispersing the higher frequencies. Here is the source I got this stuff from: http://www.mcs.net/~malcolm/control.txt
Anyhow if your planing on making some sorts of panels to (diffract the sounds) it's probably clever to do them adjustable. Good thinking..
Credit the malcolm guy who wrote that article...
BTW I don't think that you can overthink such a project. This is crucial decision making that you're gonna have to invest in and live with for a while. Take the time it's surely worth it..
Thanks for the reinforcement, Emile.. I'm under a fair bit of pressure to get this thing up and running, so it's nice to hear that I'm not overdoing it..
I miss B.C. I just loved it when I was there.
Well, if you do ever get a chance to come back, you'll have a fellow MP to hang with, and a nice studio to play around in too... If you do make any plans, let me know and we'll hook up!
Thanks again, Emile!
Harold
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#966487 - 07/13/01 09:29 AM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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rold
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Originally posted by DC:
How about sitting at the desk, and then sitting on the couch and fiddling with placement until it sounds good?!
To some degree, I can do that, if I mount things as adjustable as possible without killing the acoustics. I'm really trying to head off as many problems as I can before it goes up, that way walls don't have to be torn down afterwards. I figure if it looks good on paper, it might sound good too - with treatment where necessary. Major changes are expensive, and this studio will cost a few limbs just to erect.
Thanks for your input, dc..
Harold
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#966488 - 07/13/01 09:48 AM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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rold
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Originally posted by JingleJungle:
Hey Rold... nice seeing you around working on your quest (I always thought it would take an awful lotta time to get it done - I'll never manage...).
Hey, good seeing you too, Paul...how's Switzerland treating you these days?
One thought re. movable monitors / reflectors.
I WOULD NOT do this unless you are able to replicate the EXACT placement of your monitors / kickers each time (motorized support w/ remote control?).
I mean, since speaker placement is SO critical, I wouldn't fiddle around too much, once the optimal positioning has been achieved.
The motorized control can be done; I took a couple years of robotics in college and this wouldn't be tooo much of a problem. I was originally thinking of just using mirrors to check the placement, but it might be worth the expense (about $150 a wall I'm guessing)
I would probably try to obtain a wider sweet spot in order to accomodate the producer's bulk at the mixer as well. I think there was an interesting article on that site I showed you last time that discussed about this precise topic.
hmm...can you refresh my memory as to that article? Sorry, the stress has eated my brain..lol In the article I posted the link to above (in emile's reply), the designer has two chairs on the two ends of the console for the producer or musicians, and has the mains crosseyeing over top the console pointing at these two listening positions. I would have opted for that, but if there's one thing I can't stand is two musicians sitting on either side of me arguing about which one of their specific instruments needs to be louder while I'm mixing...lol That's why I figured the couch behind me a few feet might be nice - space is good stress relief... 
My 2 swiss francs worth (a more stable currency than the CA$... 
You can thank the US, the multinationals and the north-american free trade agreement (NAFTA) for that one. If the US ever proposes a free trade agreement with Switzerland, fight it tooth and nail before you find yourself poor and powerless. That's been my experience...
Thanks for the input, Paul!
Have a good one..
Harold
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#966489 - 07/13/01 11:43 AM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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DC
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For what it's worth, in many studios it seems that the near fields form their X with the mix engineers head. A perfect triangle is optimal. Use these to check your stereo placement and the all important mid range.
The big guys that are many times mounted on or in the wall are usually pointed in just a bit, in other words, they would be aimed to converge in a spot actually behind the couch.
With this sort of set up you'd be doing your critical mixing on the near fields, and tracking and checking low end on the big monitors. They would have the biggest sound stage and best imaging for loads of people positioned in different places (like the whole band comes in to listen) in your control room aimed like that.
If you can do robotics then that would be completely cool. Just get a pair of motors that function like the controller for your car's rear view mirror, set em up to work in a mirror image of each other and hook em to a joy stick controller. You could experiment with placement endlessly and I think it would thrill most visitors. Aren't most of us artistic types into gadgets?
good luck
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#966490 - 07/13/01 04:09 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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Emile
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Originally posted by rold:
Well, if you do ever get a chance to come back, you'll have a fellow MP to hang with, and a nice studio to play around in too... If you do make any plans, let me know and we'll hook up!
Thanks again, Emile!
Harold
Maaaaaaaan I might just take you up on that offer! It probably won't be until winter but that'd be great. So when it's like -25o C here I'll ring you up and we'll make some great tracks! The offer is returned to you also if you ever come to Montreal.
Emile
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#966493 - 07/17/01 12:33 PM
Re: To crosseye or not to crosseye?
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miroslav
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Hey rold,
I forgot to suggest this earlier in the thread, but you should get a copy of this CD from Chesky Records.
Jazz Sampler & Test Volume 1 - Cat.# JD037
The monitor tests (LEDR, Soundstage Depth, Stereo Imaging...etc.) will be of great help in checking and fixing your listening environment.
http://www.chesky.com/
There are these other two, but Volume 1 has the "meat & potatoes"...
Jazz & Tests Volume 2 - JD068
Jazz & Tests Volume 3 - JD111
I was just doing a quick check of my new studio set-up last night with Volume 1, and it is a very cool test CD. My quick check revealed that my vertical image was a bit "squished"...I should have heard about 6 feet of image up from the monitors, but I only got about 3+ feet. Well no surprise there...my ceiling is only 8 feet up and the monitors are 4 feet from it!!!
I will add some absorbtion/diffusion directly above the monitors to improve that. Currently my absorbtion/diffusion on the ceiling starts from the front of the speakers and then back over the mix position. So I have about a 2-3 foot wide area on the ceiling above/behind the monitors that is "live"...this is not a difficult fix.
Good luck!
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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