#966385 - 07/08/01 03:37 PM
recording in extremely large spaces
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carne_de_res
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Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 210
Loc: udine,AK,ITALY
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since i started doing "on location" recordings,i've become increasingly fascinated with the sound of large rooms.
well,there's this rock band i have to record next month,and they rehearse in this HUGE abandoned warehouse that has a rich and long reverb i really
want to capture.
i was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on the best way
to record this three-piece rock band.
i'm planning to place the instruments as far away from each other as possible so that i'm allowed to ambient-mike all of
them without getting too much leakage.
given the fact that the warehouse has a high ceiling,i'd also try to place a pair of "room mics" as high as possible.
any suggestions?
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#966386 - 07/08/01 08:26 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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bobkeiser@ieee.org
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 122
Loc: Bowie, MD, UNITED STATES
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carne,
I love the sound of big rooms too. I'm a fan of having the musicians play together in the same big space and capturing the performance with as few mics (preferably omnis) as possible. Sounds like you have a fun gig ahead of you!
We can make some assumptions based on what you've told us, but they could all be wrong, so please help us save each other some time. Some questions:
1. What *type* of rock do they play?
2. What are the three instruments?
3. Any vocals?
4. How high is the ceiling?
5. Do you *need* isolation (i.e., do you plan to do any part fixing later)?
6. What mics do you have available?
7. Is there a particular sound you are pursuing (i.e., Cowboy Junkies' Trininty Session)?
8. How much environmental & other noise (traffic, wildlife, machinery, transformers, fluorescent lights) leaks into the warehouse?
Tell us more & we'll throw some thoughts your way. Thanks!
Best regards,
Bob
_________________________
Best regards,
Bob
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#966388 - 07/08/01 10:07 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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Pro Jules
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Registered: 03/11/00
Posts: 2729
Loc: A yank living in London, UK si...
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1) I think as it is not a purpose built studio you will get PLENTY of room ON THE CLOSE MIC's!!!!
2) Room mic's to far back will start to act as unattractive slapback echo, and can really mess with the timing of the music.
3) rather than getting a hard on for the distant mic's , you may consider bringing in gobos / deviders to get USABLE sounds on the close mic's - as they may end up too ambient to be of good use. Control that, THEN see how AMAZING your room mic's sound....
Don't mean to pee on the campfire, just help!
Jules
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#966389 - 07/09/01 04:18 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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carne_de_res
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Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 210
Loc: udine,AK,ITALY
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thanks for the precious advice.
now i'll get a little more specific,as Bob asked me.
the band plays instrumental "post-rock", a bit like Slint or Mogwai.
it's a basic rock three-piece comprising bass,drums and guitar.
the ceiling is dead high (10 meters and more).no overdubs,just live
performance.no vocals either.
i haven't got any omni mics,i just have sm57,beta 57,58,d112 and a pair
of rode nt1.
i'm really after the sound of this room which perfectly fits the type
of music the band plays:cold.
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#966390 - 07/10/01 10:40 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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Macartie
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Registered: 05/15/01
Posts: 417
Loc: ,,UNITED STATES
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i haven't got any omni mics,i just have sm57,beta 57,58,d112 and a pair
of rode nt1.
With your mics, I would try the pair of nt1s in an ORTF stereo technique
(or maybe just spaced about 7-10 inches apart) as overheads, behind and
slightly behind the the drummer's head, angled down a bit.
These will pick up plenty of room, and you'll get most of
your drum sound from these as well.
Everything else, I would close mic: sm57 on snare, d112 on kick, beta57
on guitar, and 58/DI for bass. Also, I would position the guitar and bass
amps behind the NT1s (and pointing out to the sides -- don't blast the drummer) to take advantage of the null side of the mics.
If you mix in a DAW, you can do my favorite trick, which is to phase align
everything that's getting picked up by the overhads with the overheads.
Especially the snare; this is a great way to reinforce the its sound
without getting cancellation. If you don't mix this way, then maybe
patch in some delays when you mix on the close-mic'ed things (1 ms for
every foot between them and the overheads: bring measuring tape and
take notes!). Good luck!
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#966391 - 07/11/01 03:24 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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carne_de_res
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Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 210
Loc: udine,AK,ITALY
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If you mix in a DAW, you can do my favorite trick, which is to phase align
everything that's getting picked up by the overhads with the overheads.
GOSH,that is one neat idea!
i'm surely gonna try that.
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#966392 - 07/11/01 06:30 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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Emile
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Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 589
Loc: Montreal,,CANADA
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Yep and phase align the kick and snare too. Usually After that much less EQ is needed.
I second the ORTF with the nt1's but I find the guit and bass amp setup strange. But then again it might just work. Interesting.
Emile
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#966393 - 07/11/01 06:37 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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Emile
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Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 589
Loc: Montreal,,CANADA
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Oh wait a minute! Make sure the center of the ORTF is aimed at the snare because part of the width you get with that pick up pattern comes from the time delay between the two capsule, so you want the snare to smack 'em both at the same time. Align other miced tracks to those. Things that are left and right from the stereo pair will occur at doifferent times in their respective waveform and yopu WANT to keep that because that's what makes it stereo. In other words you cannot line up everything just the snare. I usually roll off the kick from the OH so it's not an issue.
Hope I'm making sense and that it helps.
Emile
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#966394 - 07/11/01 07:54 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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Macartie
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Registered: 05/15/01
Posts: 417
Loc: ,,UNITED STATES
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I sometimes put a high-pass on the overheads too. But lately,
I haven't been doing this; I've just been phase aligning the kick
with the overheads to get that reinforcement thing going.
By the way, if you place the ORTF mics behind the drummer,
then the kick mic might need to have its polarity flipped.
Just something to keep in mind when mixing.
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#966395 - 07/11/01 08:32 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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stub303@hotmail.com
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Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 71
Loc: Phoenix,AZ,UNITED STATES
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Sorry for the dumb newbie questions, but when you "phase align" on a DAW....What is this? How does this work.
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#966396 - 07/11/01 09:55 PM
Re: recording in extremely large spaces
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Macartie
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Registered: 05/15/01
Posts: 417
Loc: ,,UNITED STATES
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Phase aligning is really simple in a DAW. Say you have a snare
that's close mic'ed, and you also have the snare showing up
in an overhead mic. Because the overhead mic is, say, five
feet away from the snare, the snare in this mic will be approx.
5 ms later than the close mic (roughly, the amount of time it
takes sound to travel 5 feet). When you play the two tracks
together, you'll probably get some phase cancellation due
to the shift.
In olden days, engineers would often measure the distance between
the two mics, then patch in a delay on the close mic to compensate
(the rule is 1 ms for every foot of distance). In a DAW, you can literally
slide the close mic track until the initial transient begins almost
exactly where it does in the overhead mic. Voila, you're phase
aligned (except maybe at some extremely high frequencies).
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