#966270 - 07/06/01 05:47 PM
Country music production...
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Bonafide
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There has been alot of chat about Pop music production lately. I wonder what your thoughts are on modern Country production (The last 10 years).
Counrty music artists are certainly crossing over into AAA and most of the stuff that I hear on country radio these days is much too 'poppy' or slick for my tastes.
Brooks and Dunn greatest hits CD has some AMAZING production. I have been listening to that lately for reference when mixing, even though I am not mixing country. Stunning acoustic tones, THICK vocals, bright pianos, and this incredible seperation and clarity no matter what is going on in the mix. Don Cook produced all three albums that made up this CD.
I also really like the production on Dwight Yoakam's 'Last chance for 1000 miles' CD. Pete Anderson has very different approach to mixing than alot of other country music producers. Less seperation and more single focused sound. Very Cool.
I listen to alot of Country type albums for production ideas but it seems that about 3-5 years back was the best that country music production had to offer. Everything today is getting OVER processed. Some of the 'grit' is being lost which IMO take sout some of the heart. Massive auto-tune and massive 'samples'.
Just a thought.
Cheers.
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#966271 - 07/06/01 05:51 PM
Re: Country music production...
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Ralf
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I love the thick, slightly overdriven tele-type sounds on Alan Jackson records. the solo acoustics on these are also top notch.
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#966272 - 07/06/01 05:56 PM
Re: Country music production...
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strat0124
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<>
I totally agree. Did I mention I TOTALLY AGREE???? X 10 to the eighth. It's way slick, too perfect......take away the fake twangs and the steel guitars, and you've got another Backdoor Boys song.
THe exact reason I am into Uncle Tupelo, Wilco, Son Volt, Lucinda, Steve Earle, Dwight, Southern Culture on the Skids, Cowboy Mouth, Reverend Horton Heat, Dash Rip Rock, Blue Mountain, North Mississippi Allstars......should I go on??????
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#966273 - 07/06/01 05:59 PM
Re: Country music production...
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Bonafide
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Originally posted by Ralf:
I love the thick, slightly overdriven tele-type sounds on Alan Jackson records. the solo acoustics on these are also top notch.
Hey Ralf,
99.9% of all that Tele stuff is done by a man named Brent Mason. Insane musician. In&$#@#sane!!!
He played on all of the Brooks and Dunn stuff as well. Oh of course the Mavericks stuff, Shania, etc. etc. etc.
Check out his solo stuff if you want to hear RIPPIN"!!!!
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#966274 - 07/06/01 06:46 PM
Re: Country music production...
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bvdd
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Well, I'll take a pie in the face for this .. wait ..let me open
my mouth first ...
In my opinion some pop Country has the best production I've ever heard.
Brooks and Dunn, Faith Hill, LeAnne Rimes and my favorite, Shania.
For my taste, Mutt Lang is the real deal .. top dog .. big cheese ..
Ok, fire away.
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#966275 - 07/06/01 06:56 PM
Re: Country music production...
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Mark Zeger
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Originally posted by strat0124:
<<
THe exact reason I am into Uncle Tupelo, Wilco, Son Volt, Lucinda, Steve Earle, Dwight, Southern Culture on the Skids, Cowboy Mouth, Reverend Horton Heat, Dash Rip Rock, Blue Mountain, North Mississippi Allstars......should I go on??????
May I through in my favorite, Lyle Lovett? No ground-breaking production techniques, but the man can write songs that stand up to sparse arrangments as well as large bands, and what a voice. I've liked what little I've heard from BR-549 too.
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#966276 - 07/06/01 08:52 PM
Re: Country music production...
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strat0124
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Originally posted by mzeger:
May I through in my favorite, Lyle Lovett? No ground-breaking production techniques, but the man can write songs that stand up to sparse arrangments as well as large bands, and what a voice. I've liked what little I've heard from BR-549 too.
Man you ain't lyin. I'd have to throw in The Derailers, Guy Clark, Jerry Jeff Walker, Joe Ely, Flying Burrito's, New Riders, Hank III, Emmylou, Nancy Griffith, man I could go on and on....(I think I did). That scene is so wide open, and so much is accepted within the genre stylistically, I love it all.
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#966277 - 07/06/01 09:45 PM
Re: Country music production...
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Tedster
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That's the stuff!!! AMEN...
I love it.
I wonder when someone in power's gonna figure out that good music is good music. Too bad you can't hear a lot of those bands on the radio. I wonder how CMT manages to sneak 'em on "Jammin' Country" (THE best video show on TV bar none IMHO)...
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#966278 - 07/06/01 10:28 PM
Re: Country music production...
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Bonafide
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The whole Alt. Country thing has a real cult following, It maintains without glam and marketing.So many of these bands get by on sheer word of mouth and touring, Though it would be cool to see a little more of it in the mainstream. Hmm.. Would it still be Alternative? Funny thing about Alt. Country, It is just about exactly how 'mainstream' country USED to be. Bands like Big Sandy, Deke Dickerson, High Noon, Wayne 'the train' Hancock, are doing stuff that Hank, Merle and Loretta were doing 20 years ago. Rockabilly has a big cult follwong here as well in So.Cal.and I have had the chance to see and experience the trend. (Being a Rockabilly myself). There are more and more bands popping up, Alot of psychobilly bands as well but no is making a decent living at it. Most all of these players have day jobs or side gigs. It is too bad that there isn't more support. There are fewer and fewer places to even play much less being heard on the radio. Bummer.
Cheers.
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#966279 - 07/07/01 01:24 AM
Re: Country music production...
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KHAN
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I played in a country/country rock band for about 12 years. I left that band 4 years ago and really haven't heard much country music since. About a week ago we started to get CMT as part of our basic cable package, so I put it on for a while. What a shock. Most of it was like N'SYNC with a southern drawl. Man it has realy gone into the shitter in a hurry.Slick, Slick, Slick!!!
"If We Make It Through September", now there's a country song...
------------------
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KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent)
http://www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com
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#966280 - 07/07/01 04:51 AM
Re: Country music production...
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steelandre
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Originally posted by Bonafide:
Hey Ralf,
99.9% of all that Tele stuff is done by a man named Brent Mason. Insane musician. In&$#@#sane!!!
He played on all of the Brooks and Dunn stuff as well. Oh of course the Mavericks stuff, Shania, etc. etc. etc.
Check out his solo stuff if you want to hear RIPPIN"!!!!
Years ago,while on tour in France with harmonicaplayer Charlie McCoy, my band (The United Steels of Europe)was asked to backup Brent Mason at the Guitar Festival in Cannes. My main instrument is pedal steel but for this occasion I had to play keyboards.Brent sent us a cassette tape with his material and most of it was recorded by him at home on a walkman with just his guitar and vocals. (He is an excellent singer, BTW). We only had a few days to get the stuff down and although I heard some of his playing before on sessions I was very impressed and also intimidated by his playing.
Anyway, at the gig his amp was almost right behind me and it is hard to express what went through my ears, mind and heart. His playing and tone was exceptionally good and he never missed or faked a note. I know I did, after he played one of his monster solo's and yelled "Take it Andre!... 
In another way it was also an unforgettable experience because I worked with Albert Lee and thought he played loud but it is nothing compared to volume of Brent's amp that night.
I do agree with Bonafide on the current Country format although I'm not sure what you mean by "OVER processed".Although I personally have nothing against crossovers and blending different styles in general, I do feel that many new Country artists today are look-/hear alikes and so called 'hat acts'. Unfortunately in many cases the same has happened in pop- and rockmusic when marketing took over. I sometimes feel that many new 'artists' are fabricated and launched straight from the cloning department of greedy A&R laboratories (and modeling agencies) instead of developing from their own talent and authenticity. I guess that is one of the reasons that many of them have such short careers.( I hope you know what I mean because English is not my native language).
I also agree that most Country productions are excellent and that's not only because of good songwriting,producing,arrangements and recording but also the outstanding playing skills by the musicians. One of my (many)references of this are Vince Gill's CD's. BTW, also a killer guitarplayer as you might know.( Checkout Ricky Skaggs and Steve Wariner too !)
Speaking of guitarplayers, has anyone here heard of Clint Strong ? He used to play with Merle and after that he moved to Nashville, IIRC. He is a complete genius in all styles, including Country, but you really should hear him play Western Swing. He has an instruction videotape out called "Mastering Jazz Licks" published by REH 1993. Completely blew me away !
Regards,
Andre.
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#966281 - 07/07/01 04:56 AM
Re: Country music production...
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steelandre
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Oops, sorry. I hit the 'back button' and it posted this message twice.
Andre.
This message has been edited by steelandre on 07-07-2001 at 02:00 AM
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#966282 - 07/07/01 06:18 AM
Re: Country music production...
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Philip O'Keefe
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Originally posted by mzeger:
May I through in my favorite, Lyle Lovett? No ground-breaking production techniques, but the man can write songs that stand up to sparse arrangments as well as large bands, and what a voice. I've liked what little I've heard from BR-549 too.
Lyle's quite talented... and as for BR-549, my buddy took me to see them at the Crazy Horse in Orange County a couple birthday's back - they were great in a small club - even better than on record.
Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html
email: pokeefe777@msn.com
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#966283 - 07/07/01 07:05 AM
Re: Country music production...
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Philip O'Keefe
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Originally posted by strat0124:
<>
I totally agree. Did I mention I TOTALLY AGREE???? X 10 to the eighth. It's way slick, too perfect......take away the fake twangs and the steel guitars, and you've got another Backdoor Boys song.
THe exact reason I am into Uncle Tupelo, Wilco, Son Volt, Lucinda, Steve Earle, Dwight, Southern Culture on the Skids, Cowboy Mouth, Reverend Horton Heat, Dash Rip Rock, Blue Mountain, North Mississippi Allstars......should I go on??????
Strat my man, I *knew* you had good taste... 
Way too much of the stuff that comes out of Nashville is overproduced and syrupy IMO. Sure, I like some of Tony Brown's work (especially the stuff with Steve Earle), but many of the Nashville productions get too far away from the "heart" of country - which has always been (IMO) about great songs, somewhat stripped down, emotionally raw and with impassoned playing. It seems like country goes through this every so often in the way that rock and pop go through cycles and recycles. First there's a rennasance of "traditional" country, and then it gets slicked up again and "Popped" (almost like some of the Nashville establishment wants to prove how "uptown" they are or something) and it just continuously gets worse and worse until people get sick of it and there's a new revival all over again.
Many of my favorite "country" artists are not part of the Nashville scene, and are somewhat snubbed by that traditionally close knit establishment - Dwight, Steve, Emmylou, Lucinda, etc. Which is sad because IMO, they're more about carrying on the traditions of country than some of the overproduced pop schmaltz that comes from Music City.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there's any reason why Rock, Pop and other genres can't be recorded in Nashville... but to market it as "country" music is stretching it a bit. I'm all for styles growing and evolving, but when it comes to production, I've always had a bit of a problem with the Nashville scene. Not that they don't have great rooms and engineers - they do. Not that there's not a TON of great studio musicians in the town - there is, and Mr Mason is a great example... But when you use the same guys on so many different records, and you have people making decisions NOT to let the band play the parts (and some GREAT bands at that) in favor of nothing but studio guys (heck, Vince Gill and Steve Wariner, fine guitarists in anyone's book had to scratch and claw just to get the chance to play on their own records...) IMO, you're going a bit TOO far in the pasturized / processed cheese spread department. Like you said Strat, "Backdoor Boys" with a pedal steel.
Remember the "Common Thread" album where several Country acts payed tribute to the Eagles? Back in the 70's when the Eagles were big, most of Nashville wanted nothing to do with that sound (or with Gram Parsons, but that's another story), and 20 years later, they're all falling over themselves producing stuff like that. Same thing with Buck Owens, Merle Haggard, etc...
BVDD - Mutt's a great producer... I give him a lot of credit - Shania's first CD didn't do all that well if memory serves, and he does the next one and things break. But remember, Mutt was a POP / ROCK producer first before he ever did "country", and IMO, Shania's records, while pretty darn good, are more pop country crossover than "country". Some of the Brooks and Dunn stuff doesn't make me want to gag, Alan Jackson's pretty good, Faith Hill I don't "get" - again, pop more than country... Vince Gill's very impressive, and pretty slickly produced, but his voice, gtr playing and songs would work no matter WHAT you did to them.
I mean no disrespect for anyone in Nashville or for country music in general - I like a lot of country - but when you get it too mushed and slicked, I lose interest. If Nashville would spend a little more time realizing what they HAVE instead of trying ignore a major identity crisis every ten years, they'd be much better off.
Then there's the subject of "Country Radio" - arrgh - I'll ignore that topic for now except to say that many of the best country artists can NOT get played in rotation to save their souls. More's the pity. Tight, clenched fist establishment? You damn well betcha!
Sorry for the rant folks.
Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html
email: pokeefe777@msn.com
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#966284 - 07/07/01 09:19 PM
Re: Country music production...
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rtreat@home.com
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I have spent my whole career in Nashville (27 years) and seen a few changes :-)
Good insightful comments here, my take on some are:
The session players here are a vast pool of incredible talent that can be totally creative and play extraordinarily on a song they heard for the first time at the beginning of the session.
Labels are stuck on a few of the best like Mr. Mason and other extremely talented musicians that are true artist in their own right. The current label formula says you must have names from “the list” on a hit album, engineers, producers and studios face the same mentality, why can’t they just listen? Labels read Pro Tools was used and think how great. Antarees Autotune may fall out of favor some day, we can only hope and pray.
I have seen very few bands capable of cutting it on records, some of them were very successful at selling records for a while. I have recorded “successful” local country bands that had all instruments replaced by session players later and drums were sampled and “fixed”. Only a few band members from acts are ready to go red when session pros are.
Sales were booming 1990-1994, the pop country era. Labels did not create the success, only reacted to the response, which was a young record buying audience. The current state of “cookie cutter” music seems only an effort to extend the previous sales success formula rather than create anything new.
I feel the true traditional country fan has never been a record buyer and their only source for the music has been radio. Radio has always driven country radio and now is so corporate with marketing derived play list and being afraid of any thing outside the formula while along with labels constantly ask for something fresh and new. What does radio or singles mean to Rock? Conway Twitty sold more singles than any artist, so what? where were the album sales on the projects I did with him, nill.
If you are a song writer, Nashville is the center of the universe and they now command the respect they deserve.
Production from Stroud, Galamore, Brown, Cook, Bennett and others is absolutely inspired. Facilities are world class, you should have been here in 1974 ;-) There are vast numbers of project rooms in cool laid back environs.
The need for more than one type of Country radio format and chart continues to grow and some day will happen. Americana format has a wide variety of styles now and no one can nail it down except as a “catch all” for everything that doesn’t fit anywhere else.
that's all for me now,
Ron Treat
This message has been edited by rtreat@home.com on 07-07-2001 at 06:45 PM
This message has been edited by rtreat@home.com on 07-08-2001 at 12:26 PM
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#966285 - 07/07/01 10:31 PM
Re: Country music production...
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dondottcomm
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All music suffers from the same problems. Its like they just trying to please the lowest common denominator, the casual lisnener.Not the fan!
It seems like if they think they can get them ,then the rest will follow.
They market it like its Coke or Pesi.Rock,R&B rely so much on vidio that image has eclipsed talent to a point.And since that fomular
worked so well for rock and r&b sales ,country wasnt far behind..Oh well what can you do, at least the babes are hot!!anyway just my 2 cents...
Don
_________________________
What? you mean I can take this block of fine swiss and make a song??...COOL!
Don
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#966286 - 07/09/01 03:27 AM
Re: Country music production...
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russrags
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If you want to hear an excellent country record listen to Lee Ann Womack, "I Hope You Dance" CD. Very warm and inviting heart felt country music. Any good engineers in this form will find a few bad punches that I can not understand why they were missed, especially when there in such great productions.
I really got interested in "Country" music as a very good source for "NEW MUSIC" at a time when in "Pop" radio if you weren't Sheryl Crow or Hootie and the Blow Fish you had a hard time getting any airplay.
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#966287 - 07/09/01 09:06 AM
Re: Country music production...
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Hayman
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"I hope you dance" is a great song and I like the album a lot. But there is one thing that I have to ask:
When the song "I hope you dance" is played on Norwegian radio it has turned into a pretty fast dance-version. A remix that IMHO does not fit the original vocaltrack. Same thing with LeAnn Rimes "I need you". Sounds funny. Faith Hill "The way you love me" also has a version that is speeded up.
Is this only happening in Europe?
I think it started with Shania and her European version of "Come on over". I feel that "Mutt" did a much better job on those "European mixes" than some people are doing with countrysongs today.
Richard
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#966288 - 07/09/01 12:06 PM
Re: Country music production...
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DeluxeReverb
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At least half of the credit for the Brooks and Dunn sound should go to Mike Bradley, the chief engineer at Soundshop. He knows his room very well. In my experience, Don Cook is more of a "song" producer than a "sonic" producer. He brings his experience from the songwriting perspective and Mike gets the sounds. When the Mavericks were recording there, Raul Malo was the defacto producer, with Mr. Cook a valuable person to bounce ideas off. Malo has just produced the new K.T. Oslin record, recorded by Mike Bradley that is an amazing collection of music - highly recommnded.
The Keith Steagall approach - very clean, not much mids, vocals to the fore as heard on Alan Jackson CDs always sounds good on the radio, but there are not a lot of treats for repeat listeners.
R.S. Fields has a great skill for guitar sounds - check out Webb Wilder's "Town and Country" disc or "Acres of Suede".
I am a huge fan of Richard Bennett. Both George Ducas records are gorgeous - some of Bennett's best guitar playing and a wide variety of tones. The first Kim Richey record also has excellent production and great songs.
The bulk of the cookie-cutter "meet-me-at-the-golf-course" albums cut in this town pretty much suck. Weak songs and weak singers mean weak records, no matter how well you record and mix them - hence the sag in sales, IMHO. Nobody tries anything new - same mixes, same players, same sounds. A lot of the demos cut here are better than the masters from an emotional standpoint - sometimes more passion and experimentation comes from the "B" team than the so-called "A" team.
Tom
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#966289 - 07/09/01 12:15 PM
Re: Country music production...
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strat0124
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I second the Richard Bennett kudo's. His work on Marty Stuarts stuff is phenom. Marty does the Clarence White stuff really well.
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Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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#966291 - 07/09/01 07:06 PM
Re: Country music production...
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Mark Zeger
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Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com:
Vince Gill's very impressive, and pretty slickly produced, but his voice, gtr playing and songs would work no matter WHAT you did to them.
I certainly know who Vince Gill is, but wasn't familiar with his music. Then I saw him perform on the July 4th Brian Wilson tribute (TNT; it's on again this Wed. 12mid). His rendition of "The Warmth of the Sun" absoluted KILLED me . Gave me chills. I must have watched that song on my VHS copy 10 times since that night.
I don't have any Vince Gill's CD, but I want one now - any suggestions? Probably "Souvenirs"?
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#966292 - 07/09/01 09:38 PM
Re: Country music production...
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Hayman
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Well, they're all good but here is a few:
1. "When I call your name"
2. "Pocket full of gold"
3. "I still belive in you"
4. "I never knew lonely"
Richard
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#966293 - 07/10/01 11:13 AM
Re: Country music production...
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nhcomp45@aol.com
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I like Yankee Grey and Rascal Flatts because they have vocal arangements similar to The Outlaws, a sound I love. I guess I dont care for real country music . I like the southern rock sound. Paul.
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#966294 - 07/10/01 12:59 PM
Re: Country music production...
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steelandre
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Originally posted by mzeger:
I don't have any Vince Gill's CD, but I want one now - any suggestions? Probably "Souvenirs"?
I like all of them but High Lonesome Sound (1996 HDCD)is my favourite. Great songs, awesome production ( Tony Brown) and brilliant recording(Masterfonics/ Emerald Studios) & mastering (Georgetown).
Andre.
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#966295 - 07/10/01 02:32 PM
Re: Country music production...
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steelandre
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Folks,
I just read on another forum that both studios I mentioned above have filed for bankruptcy  Can anyone from Nashville confirm this ?
Andre.
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#966296 - 07/10/01 03:12 PM
Re: Country music production...
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strat0124
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I don't doubt it! Probably see a bunch more before long.....have tech will travel!
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Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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#966297 - 07/10/01 04:45 PM
Re: Country music production...
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rtreat@home.com
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From the Tennessean last week:
"People in the business report numerous midsize shops closing their doors, including the famed Woodland Studios, which was shuttered this year when it couldn't recover from 1998 tornado damage. And last month's bankruptcy filing by Emerald Entertainment Group, a complex of recording and mastering facilities, is a sign for some that years of overbuilding, rapid technological change and declining country music sales are forcing a studio shakeout in Music City.
''I think recording studios are to a large extent a dinosaur business,'' says Jozef Nuyens, owner of The Castle in Franklin, one of the area's most luxurious and celebrated recording facilities. Like many of its Nashville brethren, The Castle has held its own in recent years by conducting sessions with artists from outside Nashville or outside the country format, including Phish, Ziggy Marley and dc talk.
''We (also) diversified into production and publishing,'' Nuyens says. ''I don't see a recording studio as a business per se anymore. I see it as a tool for other businesses.''
Grant Fowler, studio manager for Love Shack Recording and chairman of the Nashville Association of Professional Recording Services, says the Emerald bankruptcy is ''a sign of upheaval.'' The next two years should be turbulent, he predicts. ''I don't know specifically what that means — whether it's more consolidation or more downsizing or closings or a combination of all three,'' he says. ''The bottom line is that people are going to have to find different ways of doing business.''
That's exactly what Emerald Entertainment chief Dale Moore, whose official title is CEO of Moore Recording Corp., thought he was doing. He acquired the prominent Masterfonics studios out of bankruptcy in 1998. Then he added a talent booking agency and a promotion business, plus joint ventures with a digital post-production house and yet another studio owned by a publisher. Moore says that the moves made Emerald the largest studio complex in the Southeast and that it tried to cultivate an end-to-end model in which all an artist's recording needs could be bundled into a discounted package."
Over diversified ?
This message has been edited by rtreat@home.com on 07-10-2001 at 01:47 PM
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#966298 - 07/10/01 06:51 PM
Re: Country music production...
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steelandre
Platinum Member
Registered: 06/26/01
Posts: 1013
Loc: The Netherlands
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Brain Tankersley and Bob Olhsson both just confirmed this news to me.Well, that's a shame. I was considering these studios for an upcoming project.
(Better book the Castle before it is too late  )
I was one the last producers to work in Music City Music Hall before it closed. (BTW, engineer was Bobby Bradley, Owen's nephew IIRC). On that particular session I used a couple of my personal hero's like Charlie McCoy, 'Pig' Robbins, Kenny Buttrey, Mark O'Conner, etc. That, plus working in this studio, was a great experience because to me there's definitely some magic about studios where legends ( including these players) have recorded that is hard to replace by something new. But maybe I'm getting old and too sentimental about these things.
Thanks Ron, for sharing that Tennesean article. Reading it I do think that they were trying to cover too many bases and lost quality along the way. OTH, I also think that all the 'home/ projectstudios' have (had) an impact.
I own one myself like many others and see major studios here in Holland are going through the same thing.
Best regards,
Andre.
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#966299 - 07/11/01 07:40 PM
Re: Country music production...
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tonewoods@rockisland.com
Senior Member
Registered: 08/30/00
Posts: 44
Loc: ,,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by mzeger:
I don't have any Vince Gill's CD, but I want one now - any suggestions? Probably "Souvenirs"?
Find a record he did with David Grisman called "Here Today"...
Bluegrass instruments and production...
Turns out the project was well-named...
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