#965119 - 06/29/01 12:55 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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strat0124
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What a discussion......
I've come to the conclusion in my mid-life that most Americans will probably take the low road whenever the government does something we don't agree with ie "I hate that, I hope somebody does something about that!!!".....because taking the high road is long and laborious, full of head on collisions with the law/powers that be. Unless you have wealth or political power, changes don't come about with ease. The civil rights movement history is full of death, imprisonment, and years of struggle, and alot of the changes wouldn't have happened if some high profiles and money didn't enter the picture. Censorship is something we railed against when our forefathers founded this country, however with that comes responsibility. The reason why we get these blanket rules is the Old Money Folks in Power are scared to death of fringe elements who would take a mile when given an inch. I also find it ludicrous that one kid in school goes home to tell Mommy that they said the pledge of alleigance, and Mommy says that infringes on his or her rights......come on!!!!! These double edged swords are killing the common man for sure. For those who think they don't have to believe in anything.....that's your right, plain and simple. I will never try to force anyone to believe what I believe. But I do have a problem with folks who either try to force beliefs on you OR try to deny you of expressing your personal beliefs. Tolerance is the hallmark of a mature society.....we must be pretty damn adolescent in this country. For those upset that someone curses on a CD....don't buy it. Upset about a TV show...don't watch it. Hate the Rush show? Don't listen to it. And there is a cure for keeping kiddies from being exposed to things you don't approve of...it's called the On/Off switch.
If I had my way we'd all look, act, and live like a Furry Freak Brothers mag......but we'd never send Freddy to score........: )
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Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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#965120 - 06/29/01 12:57 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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-
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Originally posted by djarrett:
I am hoping that some of this makes sense. I do not know if I would want a child today. The deck is stacked against raising decent folks. As our society churns through baby boomers and the latch-key generation starts to take their places as Senators, Lawyers, Doctors, Governors, or Presidents ... I am not sure I want to be around.
Djarrett --
Nice post... It does take guts to make that kind of argument on this forum, where I have the feeling that viewpoint is in the minority because, since we're all artists and into self-expression, it's somehow "uncool"...
Getting somewhat back to the original topic... As much as the "if you don't like it, turn it off" philosophy is a popular one on this thread, I'm surprised that no one has hypothesized that acts like Eminem are probably deliberately marketed towards younger kids...
Check out this article...
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates/lat_ftc000930.htm
...for an example in the movie industry and please tell me that I'm being a total cynic about human behavior when it comes to the marketing of Eminem.
Likewise, this is where I have a problem with South Park. If you don't think South Park isn't marketed towards kids, I'd like for someone to explain to me why I've seen vending machines in family restaurants with 25 cent South Park toys... Or why you can buy South Park toys period. I don't think adults are the main consumer of South Park toys... In my view, kids under 13 shouldn't even know what South Park is, let alone be a fan of it.
Let a kid be a kid. Allow them to have some innocence and retain some sense of wonder about the world before they get a little older. Sheesh.
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#965121 - 06/29/01 01:34 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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alphajerk
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i couldnt disagree more with djarretts utopian daydream. its simply flawed on so many levels.
people hate what they dont understand. like south park. i would rather my kid watch south park than most other tv programming. if you ever took the time to actually watch it and HEAR what they were saying, you wouldnt be so disgusted. it has brilliant political points. this topic is EXACTLY the movie. where the parents are so busy fighting off what they find offensive for their children that they forget to be parents to their own children.
sure the world isnt a safe place, when has it EVER BEEN. maybe in your hick town it was but the greater world has ALWAYS been a dangerous enviroment of existance. and the point to life isnt to sanitize it or try to make it safer so that you dont have to parent anymore. the job of a parent is to teach their young to survive in the world, not blame the world for what could possibly happen to the child.
i AM raising a child in this world. he will learn to adapt just like i have. i went to that HS you talk about with the booming systems and beligerant kids. we had things like open chest day where if you werent covering your chest you got hit right in the center of it. betcha didnt have that back in the "glory days". we had kids carrying weapons to schools. you just learn to deal with it because that is what you have to exist in REGARDLESS. there just isnt a choice. so you can try to make laws that accomplish nothing or try to censor what you dont understand but you wont get anywhere.
its a parents responsibility to be in touch with their childrens world and tech them how to make the most of it, not to coddle them. your post djarrett really revealed your age. you are out of touch. those kids you talk about, that IS their world. they know how to deal with it. and calling in some radio station that plays a CENSORED version of the song and having them fined isnt going to change one damn thing.
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alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#965122 - 06/29/01 01:51 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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strat0124
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Well in defense of "HICK" towns......we open doors for ladies, we say yes maam, and no maam, we don't curse in public eating establishments/movies/stores etc., and we teach our kids those same values.......whether you agree with that or not is your business, but please don't belittle that experience because you weren't fortunate to grow up in that environment.
I'd hate to have grown up in a home where mutual respect and common decency weren't the norm. I grew up country, and moved to Houston where I got my first education about big city norms. What did I learn? That growing up inner city/suburban is not an excuse for bad behavior...it starts and stops in the home, by parents. So I agree with you there. And I agree that you can control what your kids are exposed to in your home.....outside the home is a different story. There are some very weak people out there who become weak parents.....who in turn transfer all that to the kids. The cycle can be broken, without censorship, without government intervention......starts with a parental figure who knows that being a parent is not just about being a biological donor to create a new life. It's about being an active participant.
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#965123 - 06/29/01 02:18 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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djarrett
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Well, if I were anyone else, Alpha, them would be fighten' words!
"really shown your age"
I am 37 years young! And gettin' better with age ... like a fine wine! and in my 37 years I have only managed to accrue as much cynicism in my body as you have in your middle finger.
Although I realize you love provoking folks to respond, I have to first say, that at least I respect your life, thoughts, posts, decisions, etc.
This thread is *not* about you or me ... it is about an issue that needs attention. Our Country has a major artery that is severed and we need emergency surgery.
There are always going to be folks like you that believe that your actions as one will not have any ripple effect on the many. I TOTALLY DISAGREE.
How do you eat and elephant ... ONE BITE AT A TIME! We have a lot of work to do, and starting with one song with trashy lyrics may be the spark that ignites change.
Hopes, dreams (be them utopian or not), and faith are what this Country was built on. Problem is ... or kids do not know or understand that the freedoms we have came at a huge price. Many lives lost. If you do not know what you have ... you will abuse it.
I agree with you on one point. Kids are parent's responsibility. Teach your children well. I disagree regarding too much sheltering. I guess what you say is show them murders, teach them sex, let Emenim teach them that it is ok to beat women. Then your job is to explain that this is reality and that reality is wrong? WRONG ANSWER!
Every great nation that has crumbled has done so from within. You may want to stand idly by while this happens ... not me. There is a saying ... some people make things happen, some people watch things happen ... and some say "What Happened!?!"
Make things happen.
... and as far as my hick town ... It is still there and folks leave there doors open at night. Try that where you live!
Love ya,
DJ
This message has been edited by djarrett on 06-29-2001 at 11:21 AM
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#965124 - 06/29/01 02:44 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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djarrett
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Here is one I learned in my hick town from my Utopian childhood ... from Bambi no less...
"If you can't say something nice ... don't say anything at all"
Thumper
Nuff said!
DJ
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#965125 - 06/29/01 02:54 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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Lee Flier
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Sheesh... so much stuff I want to respond to that it's hard to even know where to start!
Originally posted by popmusic:
Getting somewhat back to the original topic... As much as the "if you don't like it, turn it off" philosophy is a popular one on this thread, I'm surprised that no one has hypothesized that acts like Eminem are probably deliberately marketed towards younger kids...
Well of COURSE he is - well not younger kids so much as teens. That's kind of a given.
The question that I asked, and Craig did too, and everybody ignored it, is why does that matter? If there WERE no market for this stuff, nobody would be trying to sell it. And no matter how hard they tried to sell it, it wouldn't sell.
Let a kid be a kid. Allow them to have some innocence and retain some sense of wonder about the world before they get a little older. Sheesh.
Absolutely! And even when they get older.  Unfortunately if parents are not doing their jobs, I think it's better to let them listen to music that is more reflective of their ACTUAL life experiences than to try to pull the wool over their eyes and/or dangle some mythical lifestyle in front of them that they can never have.
Dendy and Ted grew up in Mayberry and seem to feel on some level that if things are going wrong the answer is to make everything more like Mayberry. The fact is that it had nothing to do with the time or place. You guys just got "lucky". There are still parents today who play ball with their kids and teach them the right things, even in large cities. Many of my friends' kids think stuff like Eminem is stupid. Why? Because they have better things to do than listen to that crap, they don't relate to it. Why not? THAT's what you should be asking.
I also have friends whose kids do listen to Eminem et al but they don't at all take it seriously. All teenagers have a dark side that needs to come out, they are thinking about things like sex and death for the first time, and music, horror movies, etc. are one of the better outlets for that. So what if a kid listens to this type of music if they are basically well grounded? Then you won't worry about them.
Just to get personal about it, I started playing music professionally when I was 14. I played rock'n'roll and my heroes were the Rolling Stones. The year that I was 14, Keith Richards was busted for heroin. The Stones' lyrics contain numerous references to hard drugs and casual sex and lots of parents (including mine) didn't think that was a good thing. I don't think religious folks were too thrilled with songs like "Sympathy for the Devil" and that was my favorite song. I also played with musicians who were older and some of them DID do lots of drugs and casual sex. Most of my peers in Junior High School in Los Angeles, where I grew up, were already very jaded - taking drugs, totally apathetic about their lives, taken in by television and video games and gangs. They seemed anxious to do away with their innocence as soon as possible.
With all this, you'd think I'd have ended up another casualty on "Behind the Music". But it had quite the opposite effect. I thought that the way these stoner kids came off at school was so lame that I was determined to be nothing like them. Keith Richards was my hero, but it was for other reasons than his drug usage, and I had no trouble understanding that everybody's human, even your heroes, and not everything they do is cool. Despite the fact that many of the people I played with and hung out with led a totally different lifestyle and I loved and respected many of them, I wasn't drawn into it. In fact I helped a lot of my friends get cleaned up later.
I've always been determined to maintain my innocence EVEN WITH MY EYES OPEN TO THE WORLD - and pay lots of attention to that last part. It will NOT work to try and remain NAIVE by putting a blindfold on. I do have faith and hope - although not religion. I don't need any kind of threat of Hell or punishment to be motivated to do good in the world. I feel that self respect is the most important thing and if you have respect for yourself then doing what you love and doing good in the world are a GIVEN.
Escapism and violence have no value for someone with self respect - therefore no matter how much of it you see on TV you won't be influenced by it and you will probably just turn it off. It will either be nauseating to you or just plain boring.
So what you really need to be asking is what fosters self respect in kids. Banning "negative" TV shows or songs is a complete red herring. I have a lot more to say about what some of the answers REALLY are but I'll have to post them tomorrow, got no more time today! Meanwhile, I'm sure the rest of you will not be silent about it. 
--Lee
This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 06-29-2001 at 12:02 PM
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#965126 - 06/29/01 03:24 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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DrummerCafe
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Well let's see ... what scares me more? Big "Brother" Government or people without a conscious spewing their Rights all over the streets and the airwaves?
THEY BOTH SCARE ME!!!!!
Each State in the Union is sovereign, so the power should come from the individual states and/or local government. I'm not into censorship, but I'm also not into having individuals misuse their "Rights" for selfish gain.
We live in a narcissistic world; a place were people think of only themselves and not of the consequences their actions may have on others around them and the next generation. It doesn't matter what political you align yourself with; they all have a part in where we are headed as a nation ... including YOU!!!
There was a nation years ago that felt it was necessary to allow it's people the freedom to do as they pleased. No punishment for crime, no morality ... all were free to express their thoughts, feelings and "rights" as individuals as they saw fit. That nation was the Roman Empire ... but where is it today? Their corrupted freedoms brought the nation to it's knees!
I'm all for someone being put to death if it has been proven 100% that they committed murder. Texas isn't the ONLY State with the death penalty my friends; there are plenty of other States who have the law but don't use it. I think it's very clear that the national media hates President Bush, so they single out Texas. I live in Texas, and I thank God that we use (not abuse) the death penalty. Sure, there are some problems in our local government, but problems are everywhere.
The death penalty WAS partially meant as a deterrent; if not, then why were their public executions? They didn't go off to some remote area to hang the murderer ... they strung him/her up right in town where everyone could see ... and hopefully get the picture ... "if you murder, this is what happens." Sure the system wasn't perfect and it can get corrupted, but that doesn't mean we should do away with executions. We need to fix the problems, not run away or throw it out. I personally wish they would bring back public executions ... but not televised. Television has played a role in de-sensitizing our culture, I don't think people would see the difference in a real execution versus a movie dramatization. Put them out in the town square so that it is viewed in person. As sick as it may be, it's all a part of having accountability for your actions. The would be murders see what WILL happen to them; the local government will be held accountable for the execution and alleviate screw-ups.
Now, back to music ... which is what this forum is supposed to be about. I don't see why people are offended that profane words are censored over PUBLIC radio airwaves. The radio stations don't OWN the airwaves or the frequency at which they broadcast. It's not "pay per listen" ... it's out there for all to hear. This action by the FCC is the ONLY way they can maintain a consistancy and to protect innocent listens from being slimed. If you have to hear profane language in your music, then go buy the CD ... or figure out a way to do the "pay per listen" thing so that innocent children and people without a conscious don't have access. This isn't cable TV we are talking about; it's public airwaves.
I could go on and on about all of this and it wouldn't change a thing; so I'll stop.
I'll leave you with one thought ...
When shouting for your "Rights" ... think about how it might effect others and is it really worth it. If we can stop thinking about what WE want and think about what is best for our culture and the future generation ... the world will be a better place. Perhaps God will have mercy on us and not destroy us like Sodom and Gomorrah.
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#965127 - 06/29/01 03:34 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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Lee Flier
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Bart... I AM thinking of others and of future generations. None of this is really an issue for me personally, because I don't do drugs, and I don't use much profanity in my songs, and I have no inclination to murder anybody. However I don't think the "solutions" being offered by you, by DJ, by the government, or by the churches are the "right thing" either. I think you are barking up the wrong tree. That's all I'm asking you to consider.
--Lee
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#965128 - 06/29/01 03:37 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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Tedster
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Dendy said...
>>>Heck when my folks went to school, the biggest offense in school was spit balls and chewing gum. When I was in school the biggest offense was skipping school or getting caught smoking in the bathroom. Today, we got kids going to school packing guns and knives. Kids making more in a month selling drugs than Craig and I get paid in a year! Kids are angry. I am telling you, they want to be loved and they need guidance and leadership.
Yep, I still feel the same way...need a few Advil, but my opinions haven't changed. Strat and Dendy both mentioned the parents responsibility...
AMEN.
I'm raising three teenagers, well four, kinda...my oldest son took the hardest classes he could take, got a respectable 24 on the ACT, and a scholarship to UMKC. My youngest son is doing well in school, busting his rear 12 hours a day over the summer doing landscaping work for my neighbor. My 14 year old daughter is doing well in school, taking an art class at the high school over the summer, playing clarinet and flute...
Bear with me.
The fourth teenager. My nephew came here last September at age 18. My wife's brother's son. My brother-in-law is a hopeless alcoholic, crack head, spent more time in jail and prison than I could count. Could care less about his kids. His ex wife decided at a younger age she couldn't raise my nephew, so she pawned him off to my wife's parents, who were never home. The result? My nephew has probably made more money than me. Guess how? In the "pharmaceutical business". Gangsta. Thug. Listens to stuff that makes Eminem sound like a choirboy. Been in jail on several occasions. Probably came down here to avoid prison. The bad thing, is deep inside, Paul is a good kid who wants desperately to be loved and accepted. But, I'm really afraid it's too late for him to change. The thing that pisses me off is that I offered to take him when he was 10, and his mother wouldn't hear of it. So, he comes down here last fall swearing he wants to change. He's come close on several occasions, but it's probably too hard now. It's the only life he's ever known.
Makes me want to start my own group of thugs, that go around and beat some sense into stupid parents. I know that sounds contradictory.
And, by the way, "Mayberry" isn't necessarily a place. It's more of a state of mind...allowing things to be simple. It can be in the country or the inner city. Can be in white, black, hispanic, asian, etc. communities. It's a place where simple lessons of life exist, where family is important, where parents take responsibility for their own actions, and make sure their kids do the same. Treating others with respect. It doesn't necessarily have to fly in the face of being a musician.
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"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#965129 - 06/29/01 03:49 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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Lee Flier
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Ted, I totally agree with ya on that one. It's up to parents to instill self worth and love and acceptance in kids. It's not up to the schools or the government or musicians to protect them from reality. If parents aren't doing their jobs, their offspring are mostly going to be a lost cause. Blaming the world or "society" or banning things is not going to change that fact.
--Lee
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#965130 - 06/29/01 04:10 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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djarrett
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Tedster wrote: "And, by the way, "Mayberry" isn't necessarily a place. It's more of a state of mind...allowing things to be simple. It can be in the country or the inner city. Can be in white, black, hispanic, asian, etc. communities. It's a place where simple lessons of life exist, where family is important, where parents take responsibility for their own actions, and make sure their kids do the same. Treating others with respect"
Well ... you *GET IT*!!!!!!!!!
Don't stop loving on this nephew. It is never really too late. This kid is like a real rough chunk of coal. You can smooth the edges and exude kindness and love on him and he will eventually emerge brilliant and shining and setting his own good examples. I rooting for ya! Get him into some better music. Expose him to an instrument! I suggest drumming! 
DJ
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#965131 - 06/29/01 04:44 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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David R.
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Originally posted by strat0124:
Well in defense of "HICK" towns......we open doors for ladies, we say yes maam, and no maam, we don't curse in public eating establishments/movies/stores etc.,
Opening doors for someone because of their sex? I've always thought this was bullshit. Someone has their hands full, or you just feel like being nice, then go ahead. I love the idea of "random acts of kindness", do a good thing for someone with no strings attached. Makes them smile, which makes me smile. Why go out of my way to be sexist? I'll hold the door open for anyone, not just women.
I don't swear in public, always lived in big cities. What about smoking in eating establishments? I find that much more offensive. Happens all over the country.
Hitting your kid in public, I see it here and it makes me sick. The Mayberry ideal is a facade. A sanitised for your protection view of small town life. Entertaining, yes. Reality, no. Leave it to Beaver, we all know June was on Vallium and Ward was working on mouth cancer from smoking his pipe all the time, but they never showed that part.
As Lee said, so many things to respond to, so little time...
-David R.
This message has been edited by dxr@iname.com on 06-29-2001 at 03:01 PM
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#965132 - 06/29/01 04:51 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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the stranger
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Everyone here is right.
And everyone here is wrong.
Light is dark,
And here is gone.
This duality is the essence of life. It is through this duality that we experience. Without it, everything would cease to be. Without it, we would be in the state of total awareness. Our quest to know, is our will to live.
To have an answer
You must have a question
To question
is to require an answer
If you know
You have no questions
If you know
You need no answers
When you know
You feel it
One man feels the truth
That another man feels is wrong
The days are filled with both
And both are verse for song
Truth is lies
Within a life
The mind sees both
The soul decides
Lies are truth
Truth is lies
Reinforce the whole
Passing time
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#965133 - 06/29/01 05:00 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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rold
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Originally posted by djarrett:
Our society's loss of control on our youth has produced the Emenims of the world. It is now time to take back control!!
DJ
no no no! it wasn't society's loss of control that produced the eminems of the world, it was the parent's loss of control that did it. FYI Eminem was beaten like hell by his dad; I understand he has permanent briandamage from it. Not that I'm trying to defend him; I agree with what he has to say about as much as I agree that that the government should be responsible for rasing our children.
Sheltered children have created a good portion of the serial killers you see the media glamorize. Just do a little research and you'll see how many of them were kept from experiencing the real world, and maybe the result will make sense. Sheltering children only creates children that can't deal with the real world; put them in a tough place with something they've never experienced and watch them crumble.
Say you raised your child sheltered, as you suggest, and see if they could handle a life in LA. What if the kid eventually had to move to LA for some kick-ass gig that's located there. You think he'll be able to handle himself in the big city? The cards are stacked against him.
I would much rather have my son see what there really is out there and learn how to deal with it in advance rather than have it surprise him later on and bite him in the ass. I totally don't agree with Em's lyrics and really can't see my son sensationalizing that sort of mentality, but I would rather have him hear it and build a resistance to it rather than hide it from him and have him deal with it on his own.
The government with its censorship only escalates the problem. It creates "taboo" and you know how much kids love things that are taboo. Your child's mentality shouldn't be government's responsibility, nor society's - it should be yours.
And for organized religion - I've personally seen it create MUCH more damage than ANY of Em's lyrics. The church or some blackbook fear-based fairy tale shouldn't be responsible for raising your children; that whole "abide by these rules or burn in hell" mentality probably creates more problems in people than it helps society as a whole. I was raised christian, BTW.
Our children definitely do not need more sheltering, just more psychological support to help them deal with the REAL world issues they're eventually going to come across. Hiding that from them just makes it harder for them to deal with.
IMO
Harold
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#965134 - 06/29/01 05:10 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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rold
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Originally posted by Lee Flier:
Let a kid be a kid. Allow them to have some innocence and retain some sense of wonder about the world before they get a little older. Sheesh.
Absolutely! And even when they get older. Unfortunately if parents are not doing their jobs, I think it's better to let them listen to music that is more reflective of their ACTUAL life experiences than to try to pull the wool over their eyes and/or dangle some mythical lifestyle in front of them that they can never have.
Now that can get an AMEN out of me! Thanks Lee...
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#965135 - 06/29/01 05:30 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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djarrett
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Registered: 09/12/00
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Hey, Harold:
Your advise is a speech with forked tongue!
We are talking about showing our kids stuff and saying ... "See this ... it is ok for society to allow this to be shown or heard, ... but don't you do this!"
30 years ago, you just did not see it. In no way am I any better than anyone else posting here, but I will give you an example.
My first exposure to pot came at a Doobies Bros. concert. I did not ... nor have I ever smoked it. I am sure I got some residual effect cause I had to sit in the nose bleed section at the concert when I was in the 10th grade. My folks explained that it was just not acceptable to them for me to even think about doing this.
My dad always said ... "Dendy ... remember who you are when you go places. Remember you represent me, your Mom and your sister , as well as your heritage when you are in public. Actions have consequences ... Stop and think about what those could be before you make a move."
I have never suffered from my lack of partaking in drugs consumption. Does that make me better than a kid who is ... NO ... just made me a lower risk for society. (now don't start the pot flames throwing ... I just use this as an example ... could be any other action!!)
Why should this type of child rearing be the exception rather than the rule.
I'll share this with you. While in Elementary School, we had a principal that was a nice guy, but every one knew not to cross him. He carried a paddle through the halls. If you were sent to his office, he left the door to the office open while he paddled you. We hardly ever had anyone misbehave in our school. Everyone walked around with the fear of God in them. Corporal punishment? ... not really ... preventive medicine!
My band director was one of my biggest influences next to my folks. He was an ex-Marine Sergeant. He expected nothing less than the very best from us! If you miss-behaved, you dropped and gave him 50! He would tell us the only good excuse for missing a rehearsal was a funeral ... and it better be your own!
I learned the value of giving your word, and keeping it. Starting a project and following through it! Doing unto others.
Put yourself back in high school. What would have happened should this type of lyric played across your fav FM station in 1978? It would have created mass widespread panic. Have we so numbed ourselves to this type of language that it is O.K. as long as I can "turn it off"?
I totally, totally hope not!
DJ
This message has been edited by djarrett on 06-29-2001 at 02:31 PM
This message has been edited by djarrett on 06-29-2001 at 02:37 PM
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#965136 - 06/29/01 05:46 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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Tim Walters
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Can I just point out that the teen crime rate now is no higher than it was in 1980? All this hand-wringing about our nation's youth is the same old shit--nervous adults confusing style and substance.
I went to high school in the late Seventies. Actually, I went to three different high schools, scattered around the country (military family). Each one was more like Lord of the Flies than Mayberry RFD, at least as far as a nerd-boy like myself was concerned. Most of the kids listened to crappy music back then, too.
Our emphasis on punishment and vengeance (so easily extended to those whose only offenses are fashion crimes, like smoking pot), along with the vast disparity between rich and poor maintained by our form of subsidized capitalism, are exactly what keep our crime rate so high. Same as it ever was.
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#965137 - 06/29/01 06:07 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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robb.
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Originally posted by djarrett:
Although I believe in freedom of speech, I do believe that censorship has its place.
that is impossible, mutually exclusive. free speech is all speech, not just the words you like to hear. to believe in censorship, no matter how thinly applied, is against truly free speech.
be honest with yourself. it's lies like this that have deteriorated our freedom.
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modernlull, indie rock from the dirty city of detroit.
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#965139 - 06/29/01 06:27 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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strat0124
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Registered: 04/03/01
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I don't swear in public, always lived in big cities. What about smoking in eating establishments? I find that much more offensive. Happens all over the country>
Maybe it's my upbringing....but I've said Yessir and YesMaam to my elders, regardless if I knew them or not. As far as opening doors for ladies is sexist....you are reaching there, sorry. I open doors for whomever I like....I wasn't cutting anyone, just defending the "HICKSVILLE" remark stated earlier. Do whatever you want, if you feel it's sexist, that's your right. Just don't try to come down on me for doing so, cause it's damn sure my right as well. Sexist or not. And I'm far from that.
As far as the relationship with folks cursing in public places, sorry but it's way more prevelant in the city than in rural America. I'm glad you don't and applaud you for it. Smoking? I never mentioned it, however if you are looking for a response: I am opposed to banning cigs in bars......I don't, however, like to breath smoke when I eat. People mistake priveledges with rights all the time.
I respect your views regardless if I agree or not, but I think if you reread my post you will see objectively it was not a slam on people who happen to be raised urban. If thats your life story, so be it. I was only stating that being raised in the city is no excuse for bad behavior.....cut and dry.
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Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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#965140 - 06/29/01 08:11 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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Tedster
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Harold said...
>>>Say you raised your child sheltered, as you suggest, and see if they could handle a life in LA. What if the kid eventually had to move to LA for some kick-ass gig that's located there. You think he'll be able to handle himself in the big city? The cards are stacked against him.
Who said anything about sheltered children? Not me. By saying I was doing a Mayberry thing, raising them with values and to be accountable for their actions...I sure wasn't hiding them at Floyd's Barber Shop. They've grown up with the usual temptations, they've been to a couple of beer parties I'm sure. They've talked to my nephew, who's seen more of the "Detroit lifestyle" than I'd ever care to. They've made mistakes, but the difference is that they've learned to be accountable for them. They haven't been sheltered at all. They haven't been home schooled (which I AM against for the reasons you mention, but to each their own). But I sure wouldn't call them sheltered. Not more worldly than necessary (they haven't grown up like orphans on a Bangkok street either)...but not sheltered by any means.
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"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#965141 - 06/29/01 08:42 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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Tedster
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Synaes said...
>>>that is impossible, mutually exclusive. free speech is all speech, not just the words you like to hear. to believe in censorship, no matter how thinly applied, is against truly free speech
Well, like anything else, my rights end at the tip of your nose, y'know...I believe in free speech, but I sure don't think it should necessarily be used to give a bunch of neo-nazis the "right" to march through Skokie, Illinois. It's definitely a fine line, and idiots are bound to cross it. Another area that it bothers me is in the press...where newspapers have published pictures of dubious taste. An Alaskan newspaper published a front page photo of a tour bus that burst into flames after being head-onned. Showed a sequence of people trying to rescue the driver, who was hopelessly pinned in. The second shot showed the bus engulfed in flames. I found myself thinking that if I had been the driver's family, I certainly wouldn't want to see that picture. Incidentally, the passengers made it off the bus. Four kids in a pickup truck were killed after the pickup pancaked under the bus and exploded.
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"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#965142 - 06/29/01 08:48 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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rold
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Hey, Harold:
Your advise is a speech with forked tongue!
That depends on your perspective - I could say the same about most any priest out there...
We are talking about showing our kids stuff and saying ... "See this ... it is ok for society to allow this to be shown or heard, ... but don't you do this!"
Unless you have them well packed away, they're going to see it whether it's through the media or first hand...better you educate them than try and keep them in the dark, which is practically impossible.
30 years ago, you just did not see it. In no way am I any better than anyone else posting here, but I will give you an example.
My first exposure to pot came at a Doobies Bros. concert. I did not ... nor have I ever smoked it. I am sure I got some residual effect cause I had to sit in the nose bleed section at the concert when I was in the 10th grade. My folks explained that it was just not acceptable to them for me to even think about doing this.
Since when does pot make people's nose bleed?...lol
I have never suffered from my lack of partaking in drugs consumption. Does that make me better than a kid who is ... NO ... just made me a lower risk for society. (now don't start the pot flames throwing ... I just use this as an example ... could be any other action!!)
That really depends on the drug...prozac and coffee, to name a couple, make people higher risks to society than pot does, and there are studies that prove that. Do you partake in drinking coffee ?...
I'll share this with you. While in Elementary School, we had a principal that was a nice guy, but every one knew not to cross him. He carried a paddle through the halls. If you were sent to his office, he left the door to the office open while he paddled you. We hardly ever had anyone misbehave in our school. Everyone walked around with the fear of God in them. Corporal punishment? ... not really ... preventive medicine!
I heard an amazing quote coming from a murder trial in canada right now: "violence begets violence". The person on trial beat his infant son to death. His defence testimony outlined how he himself was beaten by his father while he was a child. Violence indeed does beget violence. Do spare the rod, IMO.
That, I truly do believe in.
Put yourself back in high school. What would have happened should this type of lyric played across your fav FM station in 1978? It would have created mass widespread panic. Have we so numbed ourselves to this type of language that it is O.K. as long as I can "turn it off"?
Well, people aren't as sheltered now as they were in 78. The media's much more effective these days in covering the worst our society has to offer, and I wouldn't say people are numbed to it, to a higher degree they just know it's there. Does that make everyone child rapists and murderers?
You can't expect censorship to work when it comes to things like these. Children will come across these attrocities one way or another, and with my own son, anyway, I'd rather have him educated in how do deal with them rather than not having been exposed to them at all. Truth is there really are people out there that go about their lives with Eminem's outlook on life. Would you rather have your child, even as an adult, meet these people without knowing how to react or deal with it? Censor it all and that's what will happen.
IMO
Harold
This message has been edited by rold on 06-29-2001 at 05:54 PM
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meh
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#965143 - 06/29/01 08:59 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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rold
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Originally posted by Tedster:
Harold said...
>>>Say you raised your child sheltered, as >>>you suggest, and see if they could handle >>>a life in LA. What if the kid eventually >>>had to move to LA for some kick-ass gig >>>that's located there. You think he'll be >>>able to handle himself in the big city? >>>The cards are stacked against him.
Who said anything about sheltered children? Not me.
Isn't sheltering what censorship is all about?
This message has been edited by rold on 06-29-2001 at 06:03 PM
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meh
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#965144 - 06/29/01 09:08 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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rold
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Originally posted by Tedster:
Synaes said...
Well, like anything else, my rights end at the tip of your nose, y'know...I believe in free speech, but I sure don't think it should necessarily be used to give a bunch of neo-nazis the "right" to march through Skokie, Illinois.
Like Craig said, the Kluckers had the ability to promote their racist crap all over america. All it resulted in was the chance for the mass population to see what hateful morons they are. If they would've been censored, it would've martyred them.
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meh
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#965145 - 06/29/01 09:14 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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alphajerk
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this is just absurd. who the fuck raised these kids gone awry? who the fuck raise eminem? blame the adults, not the children they created.
censorship is bad mmm-kay?
p.s. i leave my house unlocked. just be careful of the dogs.
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alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#965146 - 06/29/01 10:33 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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lovesinger
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Registered: 05/02/01
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My, my. We've gone from a media censorship focus to a full-fledged round table on morality -- [b}[i}but that's all right[/i][/b] ... it's our right as free Americans, thank God (which is from whom we got those rights to start with).
With no particular topic point to inject except to agree that the FCC is apparently wacky in this back-facing blob-thinking action, I offer the following to many expressed intellectual extrusions on freedoms:
It's amazing how we can wax staunchly *philosophical* on the side of devil-may-care let-anybody-say-anything-publicly-and-i'll-support-them liberties ..... until it gets PERSONAL and PRACTICAL.
Let one of our wack-minded-joker total-freedoms beneficiaries stand on a crowded downtown corner in your city, point up to a tall building and yell "RUN! HE'S GOT A RIFLE AND HE'S GOING TO START SHOOTING!!, and you rush and drag your toddler to safety with the hot sandpaper-rough concrete scraping and ripping her skin but you know that's better than a hot bullet hitting her and killing her, and you hear mothers' screams echo through canyons of tall buildings as terrified noonday crowds trample their small children to death... and as you eventually hear the terrified crowd roar become near silence while all look up to see where the gunman is ... the freedom-joker, with your full attention shouts with a grin, "IT WAS A JOKE!" Will you THEN stand up and defend his freedoms eloquently then? After all, he didn't hurt anybody directly; it was only 'speech'. And that's not even a broadcast-to-millions scenario.
If you don't have "kids" or don't think about their little souls surviving among the grownup giants in ths world (or if you're just contrary or totally sold-out to anarchy) you may say "yes". Remember you were a child once, and somebody protected you from the wolves in the world.
So you think electro-musical-broadcast issues are different, huh? You're all for Eminem and others' total creative freedom until they record a song directly attacking you and your family or social group [like "all recording professionals"] and put out to rhyme and rhythm a death-contract on your life or craft. And when some like-spirited fans want to gain noteriety and do the deeds the song blueprints, [even if it's NOT murder, but destroying all studios in New York instead for example, and the nightly news starts to abound with stories years of passionate hard work and expensive gear blown up, burned up and destroyed] you're for that too, right?
Well one day when you have your *future kids* and if one comes to you crying hysterically saying one of their peers influenced by whatever ungodly do-all-you-wanta music then reigns used his freedom to pull them into a room or alley and force something wrong, and your mature heart then tells you what your intellectual mind ignores today about such "freedom", you may rethink this thread (as it has morphed into what it is now) -- and all the disagreement that will surely follow -- in a different light.
As for the choice to "turn it off", when's the last time you were in a store, on a bus, at school, or anywhere somebody's radio message blasted across the air to your ears and spirit, and you were able to "turn it off"? Sure, that guy who complained could. But for the broader spread to those who have to hear what someone else controls in an environment they have to be in, it's often not an option. It's not like e-mail you need a password access to and actively *seek* to read.
Originally posted by Anderton:
ViLo, ... You can't compare speech to actions such as what you describe.
MR. A, this is the first time I've voiced disagreement with you. (But you continue to be my pro audio tutor of choice). Spech inspires (breathes life into, moves to action) its hearers, and demonic speech inspires demonically, with death as the intended end. [See "Mein Kampf" by the same Hitler you named]. Millions of Black and White [see Eminem] youth (girls AND boys) are sagging, dragging, hanging, banging, killing and dying behind not the rap style, which i like as an artform, but the preaching of the gangsta rap lifestyle that smotheringly controls it.
(Still trying to understand how ViLO got *so much* adverse response from just his few, choice, non-elaborative words in defense of decency.)
I hope I haven't been offensive to my musical comrades and tutors; that wasn't my intent. I speak strongly on this evolved off-topic because along with the good I've enjoyed in life, this 53 yo grandfather has journeyed through dark woods where moral bankruptcy is the rule and drug of choice, way off the well beaten path of Pollyana intellectualism, and it can be a terror-filled hell of a trip for those trapped there.
Some of us keep one foot in the real world. I hope some reality checks have been helped. If not ... oh well.
Vincent
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-- Music has miracle potential --
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#965147 - 06/29/01 11:26 PM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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rold
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Originally posted by lovesinger:
My, my. We've gone from a media censorship focus to a full-fledged round table on morality -- [b}[i}but that's all right[/i] ... it's our right as free Americans, thank God (which is from whom we got those rights to start with).
[/B]
Um, I disagree. We got these rights from evolution, just from being alive.
The earth is more than 6000 years old, BTW, and that's been proven.
Harold
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meh
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#965148 - 06/30/01 12:29 AM
Re: The FCC: Be Afraid...Be Very Afraid!
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Tedster
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Originally posted by rold:
Isn't sheltering what censorship is all about?
This message has been edited by rold on 06-29-2001 at 06:03 PM
I haven't censored anything my kids want to listen to. I've let them know that I disapprove of certain things, but, you oughta know how it is with kids. The more forbidden something is, the more appealing it is. I've let 'em buy stuff with negative lyrics, even obscene lyrics. Generally they lose interest, once they know it has little shock value.
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"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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