#944899 - 06/25/00 04:50 AM
Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anderton
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Okay, when a DJ is scratching away, slamming crossfaders, swapping vinyl, and doing all that other DJ stuff...is that a musical process? Is a DJ more of a musician, or an engineer? Do you have the same amount of respect for some DJ doing awesome turntable tricks as you would for a hot guitar player?
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#944900 - 06/25/00 05:21 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anonymous
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Topic: Are DJs "musicians"?
(emphatically)... NO.
Neither are rap "artists".
Rich...
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#944901 - 06/25/00 05:52 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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alphajerk
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i gotta disagree with rich. when a DJ is using and abusing a turntable and not PLAYING the record, then yea. like qbert or dj shadow, any of the invisible scratch pickles. my friend "plays" a turntable in a great portland dub band with other players, guitar, drums, bass, sequencer.
now house dj's or mixers are JUST Disc Jockeys. they might have some badass blends and breaks but they really arent creating sounds. making a needle scraping across the vinyl sound beautiful is a feat fo sho.
and i guess you havent worked with any good MC's cause i have worked with some that have blown my mind artistically. make you wanna punch a whiny singer right in the face. i think there are a number of talented MC's out there. certainly making rock have to rethink itself.
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alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#944902 - 06/25/00 08:37 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anderton
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Originally posted by Richard V. Wielgosz:
Neither are rap "artists".
Rich...
We'll get to the DJ thing later, but what do you think of Public Enemy or Beastie Boys? IMHO both bands have done very innovative music. Public Enemy really combined familiar elements together in a radical way, while Beastie Boys managed to work in more of a rock sensibility to rap and produce very deep, textured music with a decent sense of humor. I think a lot of rap is disposable, but then again, so is most music! Every genre has its innovators who are worth a listen.
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#944903 - 06/25/00 02:33 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anonymous
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I think a DJ can definitely be considered a musician, assuming that he'she is doing something more than just playing records (the guy at the wedding I was at last night who was sitting down and controlling his CD players with a remote control, playing Lou Bega and Bob Seger was definitely NOT a musician (at least in that context)).
I saw Branford Marsalis a few years ago with his funk band (Buckshot LaFonque or something like that), and aside from a pretty killer band that included Joey Calderazzo on keyboards, he had DJ Shadow with him. That guy was very much a musician. Sometimes he'd trade licks with Branford (he had a record with a sustained note on it and he could play solos with it).
I know a lot of guitarists (and bass players and drummers) who I wouldn't consider to be musicians. So to me, being a musician is more than just playing an instrument -- it's also having a sense of how everything fits together in whatever context you're dealing with. So ultimately I don;t think it's what you're playing that makes you a musician, but how you approach it. So someone playing a turntable is just as caoable of being a musician as someone playing a harpsichord, guitar, spoons, garbage cans, violin, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.
[This message has been edited by subspace@pce.net (edited 06-25-2000).]
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#944904 - 06/25/00 02:42 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anonymous
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Well, the Beastie Boys can (sort of) PLAY their instruments and write music. I would definitely classify them as musicians. In addition they made the only good rock video.  Public Enemy? I don't know that much about so I can't speak intelligently about them.
DJ's? If DJ's were "musicians" then they wouldn't be called DJ's would they? "Playing" a turntable? Making scratch noises? Then that means my brother is a musician, because when he sits his ass on the couch watching NASCAR and farts, he's making "noises" too.
MC's? Burt Parks was and still IS the best.
Let me make myself perfectly clear here. I'm not saying that some of these "DJ's" and "rap musicians" aren't artists. I guess within the (ever evolving) definition of art they might fall into some sort of watered-down "performance art" category. But I think it's about time that people got off of this poltically correct bandwagon and managed the courage to call crap, crap. (but no one will of course since it's a HUGE revenue generator for record labels, and they've been ASSURED that it's music by some critic). I guess if an unpainted canvas can be called art, so can rap.
The last time I checked, a musician didn't need a roland sampler and groove generator or a computer to make music. I can sit down with my acoustic guitar and my friends can sit down with their upright piano and play (and write) music, EVEN DURING A POWER FAILURE.
Rich...
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#944905 - 06/25/00 07:12 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anonymous
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I don't think anyone is calling some DJs musicians to be politically correct, nor do I think that anyone is afraid to call crap crap. Music has changed, as have the tools and instruments used to create it.
DJs do a lot more than just "make scratching noises." And even if they did did, how is that different than other non-pitched instruments? A lot of Cajun bands have people whose sole job is to play a washboard. Is the washboard player any less of a musician than the drummer in the same band. Is the drummer a musician? All the drummer does is bang on things. Is banging on things different (i.e. better) than scratching things? I listen to a lot of Scandinavian music, and many of the groups feature someone playing a Jaw Harp. Jaw Harps are pitched, but they only play one pitch, so they're really more of a rhytmic instrument. Can jaw harpists be considered musicians? What about tamboura players? All they do is play a drone for the length of the piece.
Nicolas Slonimsky, who was a musicologist and composer who hung out with Stravinsky, Ives, and Varese, wrote this definition for "music" in his "Lectionary of Music":
Music: A meaningful succession of perceptible sounds in temporal motion.
It doesn't sound like Slonimsky (who died in 1995 at the age of 101) would have precluded DJs from being considered musicians.
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#944906 - 06/25/00 11:08 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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alphajerk
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i think you are hugely stereotyping meaning every rapper is like puffy or every dj is like dj lethal.
and dj's BTW are entertaining more people right now than you could ever imagine playing acoustic guitar with upright piano for in your entire lifetime added exponentially. and i think a lot of the dance music SUCKS, raves SUCK. im not into amphetimines(sp?) which is what that whole culture is based around nor do i like to dance. makes my heart race, it already naturally does that, i need medication of the opposite effect. but in the same mass genre, downbeat and trance, breakbeat exist, dub, DnB i love to listen to. but live i want to SEE the musicians. i saw a show 'project logic' recently with the DJ OUT FRONT and the band set up behind. it was alright, but nothing special so i wasnt running to buy the cd either. but i have seen bands not with djs that were as boring.
ACID (not the drug) users arent musicians joking, but im not about the sega/sony game that dj scribble endorses.
_________________________
alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#944907 - 06/26/00 02:41 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Uh Clem
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Interesting thread but it suffers the problem of most semantic arguments - a matter of agreement on a definition of a musician.
I think the similarity of scratching to any other percussive activity is pretty compelling. I think that anyone who looked into it – or put his or her self into the task, would quickly realize there is a right and wrong way to proceed. Out of tempo scratching won’t do.
Using a turntable and mixer filters to playback and modify a previously recorded bit of sound can be only mechanically different from a sampler which many regarded musicians use regularly – and I can remember in the early Walter Carlos and Moog days when the same sort of discussion was aimed at synthesizers.
As far as MCs go, well no – they may well be artists in the sense that they are entertainers and have a craft that also can be done well or poorly, but I look at them like many other spoken word and music artists – they are narrators unless they are singing or otherwise doing something musical. But, hey, what’s wrong with that?
However, I have noticed that a lot of rappers sing about as much as Lou reed ever did. I think Lou may have been the 1st rapper
As far as the Beasties go, check out The In Sound From Way Out, and then get back to us. A worthy work for any collection. I usually have to get up to see if it is them or Medeskie, Martin, Wood.
Which reminds me - check out MMW Combusitication with some way cool spoken word on track 6. Sort of sounds like William Hooker / Lee Ranaldo stuff. Ranaldo - now here's a guy jamming the instrument end of a guitar cable in and out of a little keyboard and into his hand and waving it aroung the room. I think it is called improvisational or free jazz - but they do have narrators and drums and guitars. 
[This message has been edited by stevepow (edited 06-25-2000).]
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#944909 - 06/26/00 03:33 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Uh Clem
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No doubt.
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#944910 - 06/26/00 03:33 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anderton
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Let me stir the pot a little further...
There seems to be a general agreement that some DJs show immense physical prowess in what they do, and that it's not easy. I'd also add that the number of those DJs who also have good taste is considerably smaller -- it's much easier to do manic scratching than to do manic scratching in just the right place, in a way that complements the music.
But there seemed to be put downs of those who "just play music." Again, there are extremes: the guy at the wedding on autopilot, as opposed to the DJ who can pick just the right tracks, at just the right time, to bring an entire crowd into a grandiose collective experience. Maybe the latter isn't a "musician" (I guess symphony conductors aren't either, then!), but there's a definite skill set required -- arranging, beat matching, hot starts, and most of the all, the ability to sniff out the audience mood and translate directly into what tunes will further the experience. It's hard to understand what I'm talking about if you haven't been in this situation...but I've been privileged to see some awesomely talented DJs move a crowd as much as any band I've seen solely through their talents in arranging, engineering, and real time effects processing techniques (EQ, echo, etc.). Actually, the term EQ came up with to describe this new type of musician --"performing engineer" -- seems pretty much on the mark.
Can they play if the electricity goes out? No, they can't. But it's very hard to play acoustic guitar when you break a string. We're all dependent on technology to a greater or lesser degree, unless all we do is play kazoo.
More importantly, I feel that what's going on in the clubs is about as exciting a phenomenon as I've heard in a long, long time. Some new hybrid musical form is being created, but all I know is the bottom line: it moves me, emotionally and physically. That's all I ask for from art, anyway.
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#944911 - 06/26/00 04:10 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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alphajerk
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that BB album is the instrumental tracks from their releases with a couple extras. but MMW has a LOT more talent. however i used to freak people out with the Meters after those albums came out. those guys are the real funky shit. better than any DJ's wetdream. with a whiteboy playing guitar no less. and they are coming to town in 4 weeks!
but speaking of hiphop artistism. now im not really a dmx fan but i saw him on sat night live or something with live players backing him up. i gotta admit it sounded good. the drummer was bad as shit, some heavy guitar. or the roots, man those guys are some musicians.
_________________________
alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#944912 - 06/26/00 02:28 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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eddieray
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Ask the guy on stage what key his last number was in. If he doesn't know, he ain't no musician. It doesn't matter if he plays guitar or turntable.
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#944913 - 06/26/00 03:47 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Uh Clem
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please!
and what key would a percussion only drum corps be playing in?
creativity (seems like what art and music are about) often benefits from thinking outside the box.
[This message has been edited by stevepow (edited 06-26-2000).]
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#944914 - 06/26/00 06:34 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Bill V
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There are three basic elements of music,
rythm, melody and harmony. All or any one of these three elements alone can be used to create music. Some forms of music have very little melody or harmony but may be very exciting rythmically. Other types such as solo acapella singing, may contain a beautiful melody but no harmony and little rythm. (I suppose you could claim that a melody also requires a rythm of some sort as it has to unfold over time.) To me the very best music usually contains all three elements creatively crafted together. But not always. The emotion that is emoted through the performance is really what counts. The first time I heard "Fight the Power" by Public Enemy it gave me chills, although in general I don't like rap. Last night I was watching "Sessions At West 54" on PBS. First up was Sheryl Crow with a great band that I greatly enjoyed. The next act was G Love and Special Sauce. They started playing some interesting jazz chords but when the singer opened his mouth it was all rapping. I just did'nt get it. But hey my Father still dose'nt get Led Zepplin and I suspect he never will. Another element of most pop music to consider are the lyrics. When I was a kid a lot of my friends loved Bob Dylan but I just didn't get it. His voice just irritated me, but my friends would say "you have to listen to the words, he's a modern poet man" but I would insist he was no musician. Real musicians were people like "Keith Emerson" or "Rick Wakeman". All these years later I finally understand and appreciate Dylan. I think for a lot of rap fans it is mainly about the lyrics. The rappers are the new modern poets. As far as scratching records, to me its like a sound effect that just wont die. I remember when syn-drums came out in the seventies. For a couple of years they were on almost every record that came out, but people got tired of them and they went away. The thing about rap or hip hop is that it is an art form that was Started with scratching records so I think for most fans it is an integral part of the genre.
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#944915 - 06/26/00 08:57 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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russreign
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As a house/trance DJ, i consider myself more of a performer than a music player.....
Trent Reznor is a performer, Michael Stipe is a performer, Mick Jagger is a performer, and so am I. The crowd and music may be different, but the ultimate goal is still to give the crowd a unique listening experience and expose them to a great time.....
What about djs who play tracks that they actually produce themselves? That is quite commonplace today.... They are musicians right?
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#944916 - 06/26/00 11:08 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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TRiP Project
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My Fiance' taught Kevin Saunderson's (One of the pioneers of the Detroit Techno sound, and also someone who travels internationally as a very successful DJ) son. She mentioned to the class that her students' Dad was a musician. Kevin's son corrected her and said "My Dad says he's not a musician because he doesn't play an instrument; he's a technician". I had thought that myself, but I found it interesting that one of the 'Big Guys' in the genre considered it that way...
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#944917 - 06/27/00 01:36 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anderton
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Originally posted by russreign:
What about djs who play tracks that they actually produce themselves? That is quite commonplace today.... They are musicians right?
I think that might be what intimidates many "traditional" musicians. Until DJs started doing their own trax, you could always say that these guys just played other people's music. But if they know how to really put music together on an arranging/sequencing level, but also know how to create the elements that make up those pieces of music, that's a potent combination.
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#944918 - 06/27/00 12:30 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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THE MIX FIX
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"Play Music They Produce Themselves"
What exactly does that mean?
Take the vocals from a POP record, play a two note bass line, in ANY key using ANY two notes that are adjacent to each other on the keyboard, put them all in ACID, make a new "Track" with NO bearing to where the melody, chords, and changes, let alone key of the song goes, and "Mix" by doing stupid, predictable mutes?
Yeah, well then DJs are as much performers, as Jim Carey is a Shakespearean actor.
I guess you'll just have to pump me full of Ecstasy to get me to "enjoy" the "performances" of out of key, Kindergarten bullshit.
Can I suck on a pacifier, with some Vicks in my "Michael Jackson brand" face mask while some 14 year old girl hugs the subwoofers during a "performance"?
When THAT is all that's left to the "Music" business, I can't wait to die, or sell McDonalds Burgers.
Oh yea, IF I break a string on an acoustic guitar, I can still hobble though the rest of the night, as can most decent players.
And as far as LYRICS!!??
How many more times can you talk about "Making stacks, with your blunts, Bitch ho's in the BWM, and Fuck the rest of the assholes, that can't rap as bad as you"?
Think I've heard that tired old message, what, 10 million times before?
Peace out, off the hook, slamming, word up, homeboy!!
------------------
Bob.
[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 06-27-2000).]
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#944920 - 06/27/00 07:36 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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frunkcee@aol.com
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It is amazing to see the differences in opinion on this subject. I am aprofessional dj for over 13 years (mobile and clubs). I also own a small recording studio where I do soulful house music. Do I consider myself a musician??...tough question..I think I am a good producer and engineerwho can get a project done sounding like I want. Should we be respected like a musician??probably more like his little brother. I have had the honor to work with many talented musicians (guitar, bass, drums etc..)in my productions...and I think us DJ's who are working on music should make it their business to learn some basic music skill, so they could tell these musicians what they want. Also I think alot of musicians should be more supportive of us, and at least give us the respect that we HAVE talent in putting this stuff together.
I even helped produce a few rock mixes..and the band loved how I totally flipped the feel of the song...by just some mutes and effects......so, my point is that we should work together.....thank you...ps craig I love your column...Frankie C
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#944921 - 06/27/00 11:04 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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alphajerk
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hell, rock music hasnt gotten past the same three chords in 50 years! talk about dumb. lets all just sing 'wild thing' for the rest of our lives or was that 'louie louie'?
however i cant imagine a DJ spinning for years without picking ANYTHING up along the way musically.
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alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#944922 - 06/28/00 01:10 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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THE MIX FIX
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Oh come on, Alpha!!
Listen to the "remixes" of your boy Hendrix, being u-u-u-used for some TV commercials, and say that!! 
MAYBE what the DJs pick up from all that time is a good case of AIDS!! 
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Bob.
[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 06-30-2000).]
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#944923 - 06/28/00 05:05 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anderton
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Originally posted by frunkcee@aol.com:
Do I consider myself a musician??...tough question..I think I am a good producer and engineer who can get a project done sounding like I want. Should we be respected like a musician?? probably more like his little brother. I have had the honor to work with many talented musicians (guitar, bass, drums etc..)in my productions...and I think us DJ's who are working on music should make it their business to learn some basic music skill, so they could tell these musicians what they want. Also I think alot of musicians should be more supportive of us, and at least give us the respect that we HAVE talent in putting this stuff together.
...and this encapsulates what appeals to me about the DJs I meet. They're not the ones with the attitudes; but there's no shortage of musicians who look down at what DJs do. MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT - putting together a set that can drive a whole crowd nuts, en masse, while building over a period of several hours is NOT EASY. Anyone who thinks it is should try it. I look at what some DJs do, and my jaw drops in admiration of what they know about arranging, playing off of a crowd (something more bands should learn), and set listing. Yet they generally don't cop any attitude other than "glad you like it."
On a more personal level, I'm no 23-year-old kid. Yet I feel I've been accepted by the DJ community I've worked with on two continents, to the point where they get a kick out of having this middle-aged guy jam with them onstage with my guitar. They're open to it - none of this self-important "don't trust anyone over 30" attitude that was part of the 60s. And what I've gotten back from them has improved the quality of my mixes, and playing, 100%. I've learned to be better at cutting out the extraneous elements, focussing on what's really important, and building a song better and with more intensity. DJs have taught me as much about mixing music as any big-name producer I've worked with.
Now, of course not all DJs are on this level. Yes, there are plenty of mobile jocks playing parties who do not exhibit these kinds of skills, just like the guitarists murdering "Stairway to Heaven" in music stores. But once you've seen the way a good DJ works a crowd, it will change your ideas about live performance forever.
I don't just support DJs, I have tremendous respect for what the good ones do.
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#944924 - 06/28/00 06:25 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Uh Clem
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Craig, I think this is about fear of the unknown or fear of change. I see the same kind of comments on the analog v digital threads.
I'm an engineer 1st and an artist second - I say this because I watch the way people I think are true artists approach things: they don't think about what the tool is or how it is made - they think about the sound they can get from it and an interesting way to use it.
The engineer disects the technology or concept to death and may eventually move forward.
I try to take example from my creative artist associates who plunge forward without thinking and discover cutting edge sounds by not limiting their imaginations with prejudice. Your example of jamming with a DJ is exactly what I'm talking about. No harm in trying something and if you don't like it, don't do it again.
[This message has been edited by stevepow (edited 06-28-2000).]
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#944925 - 06/29/00 10:22 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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THE MIX FIX
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Originally posted by Anderton:
...And what I've gotten back from them has improved the quality of my mixes, and playing, 100%. I've learned to be better at cutting out the extraneous elements, focussing on what's really important, and building a song better and with more intensity. DJs have taught me as much about mixing music as any big-name producer I've worked with.
BOY, do I have to disagree!!
What I've "learned" from DJ/Remixers, (And some "Top Name" ones, at that), is to put WAY too much bass in the mix, to the point of getting ridiculous, and screech the highs out there.
Also, to do sloppy automation mutes, some missing the beat by a 1/16 or more, but work quickly, just to get it done, not get it right.
Monitor WAY too loud, so it sounds like it does "In the club" with monitors that are EQed so inaccurately, that it's, literally impossible to tell what you're getting but a boom, and some over metallically sounding high hats.
So, okay, if you've tried it and don't like it, then you don't have to do it again. I've tried and and don't like it and DON'T do it anymore.(Even though it's mostly Analogue!!)
AND I'm SURE Al Schmidt, or Bruce Swedien, or Sir George Martin could show me a LOT more than DJ Bad Kool Dog!!
------------------
Bob.
[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 06-29-2000).]
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#944926 - 06/30/00 04:35 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anderton
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>>What I've "learned" from DJ/Remixers, (And some "Top Name" ones, at that), is to put WAY too much bass in the mix, to the point of getting ridiculous, and screech the highs out there.
Also, to do sloppy automation mutes, some missing the beat by a 1/16 or more, but work quickly, just to get it done, not get it right.
Monitor WAY too loud, so it sounds like it does "In the club" with monitors that are EQed so inaccurately, that its literally impossible to tell what you're getting but a boom, and some over metallically sounding high hats.>>
Sounds to me like you need to work with a better class of musician, Bob! Which also, of course, brings up the question: if they're hiring you to work on their projects, why don't they take your advice?!? Seems self-defeating to me.
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#944927 - 06/30/00 05:13 AM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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I was thinking about this the other night and it occurred to me that the first rappers were probably Beatnik Poets who would rap to music in coffee-houses.
Rich...
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#944928 - 06/30/00 12:22 PM
Re: Are DJs "musicians"?
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russreign
Senior Member
Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 408
Loc: New York,NY,US
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Bob, what about an artist like Spacegirl, who plays keyborads, synths, and grooveboxes live at clubs? Would you consider her a musician?
No turntables, no CDs, just equipment.......
(Yet she is still considered a DJ)
_________________________
Music Is The Answer!
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