#944633 - 06/01/00 12:04 PM
"Cookie cutter" soundguys
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faceless@iquest.net
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Registered: 05/27/00
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Loc: ,IN,UNITED STATES
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I've been playing professionally for about 6 years now and am the guitarist/vocalist. I've always been a tech geek of sorts, so when it comes to all the technicalities of live sound, recording, etc., I usually know what I'm talking about. The point of the matter is, I take care of my own vocal processing which is midied together with my guitar processing. When we go someplace new, most of the time, after introducing myself to the soundguy and letting him know about our sound setup, everything goes smoothly. Sometimes (on several occasions) I've come across soundguys who freak out 'cause I'm not using the exact setup that every other band that plays there uses. I try to be so damn nice and ease their worries, but some sound guys are just way too territorial. Some will pretend to work with me, giving me the warning, "if it doesn't work, use my mic" which of course leads to my signal chain not working, but mysteriously his does. It's really upsetting cause there's nothing you can do. The sound guy with this frame of mind is only going to make your band sound worse if you piss him/her off even more.
Alot of "indi" type clubs have these types of sound guys too. They notice you have a rack of gear and immediately roll their eyes. What is up with these people? Everyone should be given the chance to sound as different as the next band, regardless of whether the sound guy predicts it's going to sound shitty or whether theyre just too lazy to do something different from the norm.
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#944634 - 06/01/00 12:23 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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Mark Amundson
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Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 5
Loc: Cambridge,MN,UNITED STATES
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Let me play devil's advocate (or Sound Neandrethal) for just this moment. If a singer comes in with a favorite mic, then usually it is no big deal; plug in and go.
When you start dragging in onstage processing you are implying that you know more about the sound offstage than the sound person does. Where the compromise is at, is the onstage processing should not alter volume or frequency response; so the sound person is not fighting your patches. If you think your reverb/delay/pitch shift presets are better than what a house sound guy can do, then by all means drag in the gear. But your performance may suffer if the processing degrades the audience peception of the performance.
The ultimate solution is to have you own sound person, who has your vocal processing inserted back at the desk, and knows what patches to cue for each song or part of a song. Then the "intensity" of each effect can be adjusted offstage to account for the venue acoustics.
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#944635 - 06/01/00 12:42 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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THE MIX FIX
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Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 1552
Loc: NYC Area
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Faceless:
The answer is really quite simple.
The Soundguy is just lazy, and you're being a pain in his ass. 
If he gets all of $50.00 a night, (Lots of guys in small clubs in NYC, STILL only get $50-$75 a night), WHY would he want to go to the trouble to set up any of your extra, foreign (to him) gear? 
He probably does a different band 5-7 times a week, and they are ALL faceless to him, as well. Some will NEVER come through those doors again. PLUS, if he knows he can get a decent sound IMMEDIATELY with HIS gear, then he might get bitched at by the Management, for wasting too much time, taking too long, using something the club is not familiar with, for not having it sound as good as usual, or for getting feedback. 
Offer him a small tip if you can use your stuff, and I'll bet you, if the Management doesn't mind, your stuff will be set up in 2 minutes.
------------------
Bob.
[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 06-01-2000).]
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#944636 - 06/01/00 03:31 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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Anonymous
Anonymous
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I think Bob nailed it.
Rich...
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#944637 - 06/01/00 04:02 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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richt
Senior Member
Registered: 04/14/00
Posts: 134
Loc: San Jose, CA.
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Buy them a beer, and thank them very much for all their help. Sure it's kissing ass a little, but you gotta do what you gotta do to do what you wanna do...right!
-Rich T.
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#944638 - 06/01/00 09:25 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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faceless@iquest.net
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Registered: 05/27/00
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Loc: ,IN,UNITED STATES
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OK, I thought I'd hold off for awhile in replying, but I feel now is the time to counter a few points.
Essentially, my rig IS plug and go. I try to be nice, respect their territory and explain what I'm going to do. I could just do it without explaining and wait to see if the sound guy even notices the difference, but I'm not like that. The only thing the sound guy HAS to physically do is nod his head and tell me if the signal I'm sending him is too hot. I'm using my own microphone (Shure beta 58a)and cord going into my gear. Then using the existing house mic cord, it gets plugged into my output, maintaining vocal channel integrity.
Also, let's be honest, most bands touring around or playing regionally to their area, can only afford so much, let alone tipping sound guys or paid help (or even volunteer roadies if you're lucky.) Another point in regards to having your own sound guy...if it's no big deal to have your own sound guy, then aren't we assuming that sound guys always know better than the musicians themselves? Essentially I am the bands sound man, who also performs in the band.
MARK: "When you start dragging in onstage processing you are implying that you know more about the sound offstage than the
sound person does."
This is a fact that I DO know more about what I should sound like, because, it is my band, style of singing, etc. The sound guy should by no means get an inferiority complex just because a band uses different equipment than the next. It's analogous to a club expecting a bands drummer to use their backline of bongos and timbales to make do since it works for everyone else.
A successfull band must be very resourcefull until they achieve the fairy tale of rock stardom. My attempt at being resourcefull is being extremely aware of what we should sound like way before we step foot on the stage. By taking responsibility for preset changes on stage, I'm maintining that resourcefullness until we are capable of affording a our own sound guy/button pusher.
As far as the sound guy "only" getting paid $50 or so, gee, poor guy. I can't count how many times we've drove hundreds of miles to play in some club and get paid nothing to $15. It's rediculous. At least the sound guy is local to the area.
The point to this whole long winded rant is that, yes, when we play places that have great sound systems and great engineers, I'll backoff and let them do their magic. Speaking of which, we just played a huge concert a couple days ago. The sound engineer does sound for the grammies each year, and he had no problems whatsoever with my equipment. Even told me it sounded really good after our performance. Yet we play some hole in the wall, probably won't get paid gig, with a 'my way or the highway' sound guy and for what? His own unwillingness to accept that not every band is the same, and the 'lazy factor' where doing sound became a job and not a desire. So who's to blame? I know I'm on stage putting 150% effort into a show whether there's anyone there or whether we probably won't get paid or sell any merchandise. There just seems to be a lack of mutual respect.
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#944639 - 06/01/00 09:52 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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Doug Robinson
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 37
Loc: San Diego, CA
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<>
No, you're saying you know more about YOUR sound offstage than he does, which seems utterly logical to me. And while there are some very fine soundpeople out there, there are also some who obviously don't know as much as by beloved beagle/bassett does. I've been driven out of the room by sheer volume...of only two mic'd acoustic guitars and a percussionist! That takes a special kind of talent, don't you agree?
There was a "sound guys" hangout on the old SSS, and I was shocked to see actual pros, one after the other, bragging about how they purposely screwed up the sound at one show or another because the artist pissed them off. My God. And here I thought it was merely incompetence, as opposed to hostility, immaturity, and gross self-centered-ness.
Musicians can be real jerks. But then again, so can sick people. Does that give the physician the right to remove the wrong organ, let alone get on the internet and boast about it?
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#944640 - 06/02/00 12:51 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Faceless,
If all you were going to do was defend your position at all costs, without regard for anything people said in here, why did you bother to create the thread in the first place?
You would have also helped your case a great deal if you pointed out FROM THE BEGINNING that your rig was simply plug and go... essentially invisible to the FOH guy.
Rich...
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#944641 - 06/02/00 12:56 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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THE MIX FIX
Platinum Member
Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 1552
Loc: NYC Area
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Faceless:
See, you answered your own question again.
The guy who mixed the Grammys, (and got Grammy pay to do it) was okay. 
The fat little A/V guy, who got $50.00 didn't give a shit.
Do you think he cares if you drove 200 miles to play for $15.00?
You're still just a pain in his ass.
HE doesn't know, or care, if you'll ever go beyond his stinkin' little bar.
If you can make friends with him, and as suggested, and buy him that beer, great.
If not, don't worry. When you're up there accepting your first Grammy, HE won't be mixing you. 
------------------
Bob.
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#944642 - 06/02/00 01:14 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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faceless@iquest.net
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Registered: 05/27/00
Posts: 8
Loc: ,IN,UNITED STATES
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RICHARD: Sorry it seems as if I'm not budging for advice and really I'm not even sure what I'm looking for in regards to an answer. Sometimes when things seem common sense to us, they're not to others and this has been a peeve of peeves for me for years.
Like Doug mentioned, there are some pretty shady people out there doing live sound that as a musician, I'm relying upon to do their best. You never know who could be in the crowd at one of those hole in the wall hangouts. Thanks for all your responses, much appreciated.
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#944643 - 06/02/00 12:31 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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Kris
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tallahassee, Florida
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Here's an idea... state in your rider what you want to do with your vocal effects and / or let the club know up front what you intend to do...Put it in writing and fax it to them.
Make sure they don't have a problem with it up front.
If they have a problem with it, save yourself a trip and find a better gig!
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#944644 - 06/02/00 12:55 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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Mark Amundson
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Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 5
Loc: Cambridge,MN,UNITED STATES
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I think Faceless has answered his own question when I read tales of long drives to $15 gigs. Your onstage vocal effects "production" is just your way of coping with little to no help because you can not afford to pay a traveling production crew (soundman, lightman, roadies). From that perspective I applaud your quality instincts. Although, I am worried about your arrogance thinking that a good club soundman who day-to-day deals with the PA, the acoustics; cannot improve your performance.
At some point, you may improve your band's fortunes enough to start having a production crew. At that point, I would encourage you to let loose the controls to the crew, and focus on your own performance aspects more.
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#944645 - 06/02/00 01:58 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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JES
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Registered: 04/02/00
Posts: 439
Loc: Montreal, PQ
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My experience is that a good soundguy (or gal) can make all the difference. There are too many variables once you're on stage and people are out in front -- the sound is totally different. I'm a bassist who uses a lot of wacky effects, so I know all about not doing the expected thing.
I always make an effort to make friends, offer to buy a beer, learn the soundguy's name, etc. I also make sure I explain and demo each tone I'm going to use before my band starts our set. I offer to be the point person and answer questions. That way, if a particular thing is too loud or quiet, it can be adjusted. If the person does a good job, I let them know and thank them while still on stage and in front of the audience. If they suck, I thank them quietly offstage and hope they'll do better next time.
--JES
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#944646 - 06/02/00 04:18 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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SvtYeahBaby!
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Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 93
Loc: Kansas City,MO,USA
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Pk, here goes. I am, and have been that guy that faceless has to "put up with"
I make a good rate, and do both large and small shows ( so bob doesn't give the same excuse 3 times.)  also, it is less work if the vocal is already processed.
The big problem i have is when prople do thier own processing and won't budge on settings. ( if Mr Grammy guy was cool with your setup, this apparently might not apply to you)You know that 3.5 second reverb and big delay that sounded cool in your headphiones at home? It just might not be cool in the house here.. wet/dry ratio can also be a prob.
The best time I ever had with this type of thing is when the vocalist gives me a wet and a dry send, and at lest trusts me to mix the two. Frankly, I would reather they figure out what they want and provide it, after all, I don't process the electric guitar effects. Just be willng toi make it work, so that the promoter doesn't give me shit for the mix being"way too muddy"
------------------
Steve Smith
No, not the drummer
_________________________
Steve Smith
No, not the drummer
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#944647 - 06/02/00 08:50 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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faceless@iquest.net
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Registered: 05/27/00
Posts: 8
Loc: ,IN,UNITED STATES
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Steve: True, there's some pretty rediculous effects to be expected to work in every scenario without taking into consideration the size and overall acoustics of the venue or event. Let's put it this way, everything I play through has the potential to be retweaked before every show I play in consideration of the variables at hand. My guitar EQ changes constantly, my effects balance, etc. I take this all into account. I don't consider sound guys to be the bad guy (as true to the opposite my rants may have seemed.) At each new place we play, I size up the system, the acoustics, and the soundboard gear used there and meet the soundguy. I strike up a conversation with him/her, find some common ground and let them know that I'm not the typical asshole rockstar wannabe. I thank them on and off stage (as JES mentioned) and I REALLY DO mean it when I thank them. It's a great thing to sound good. It boosts your confidence in your performance increasing your performance quality two-fold.
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#944648 - 06/03/00 01:54 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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SvtYeahBaby!
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Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 93
Loc: Kansas City,MO,USA
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Sounds Great..
Don't worry i hatre going to small clubs too.
------------------
Steve Smith
No, not the drummer
_________________________
Steve Smith
No, not the drummer
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#944649 - 06/03/00 06:01 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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alphajerk
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 03/06/00
Posts: 7950
Loc: asheville nc usa
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id be like, setup your mic, ill just unplug it and stick my FX chain in ya dumb bastard. better get my levels right cause the owner aint gonna be happy if you blow the mains.
personally, id rather have vocalists use their own fx. i rarely put anything on them if they dont bring anything. i will admit distortion FX arent the greatest thing to be having on a mic.
hell and i do shows for beer sometimes. then again, i can drink anybodys normal pay. hic. but the by end of the show is sure sounding right.
_________________________
alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
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#944650 - 06/03/00 09:37 PM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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THE MIX FIX
Platinum Member
Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 1552
Loc: NYC Area
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Alffa:
Iz zat wy yor postses afr hardt ta umberstn suntines?
Baob..'
;
------------------
[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 06-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 06-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 06-03-2000).]
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#944652 - 06/09/00 10:21 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered
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Give'em a dry mix, a wet mix and hope for the best when they mix the two. Most live shows sound like crap anyway.
Let your CD do your audio talking and when you're onstage just jump around like you're the second coming of KISS!!! (only mildly kidding)
Tip: All A&R people will be intoxicated at your show. Buy them another round right before you go on. That'll mag yer migz soun' bettr',,, hic!
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#944653 - 06/14/00 01:15 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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don@folkcafe.com
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Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 80
Loc: Westminster,MA,UNITED STATES
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I work with a number of indie lable artists that have on stage processing. It seems like a trend lately. I usually get a heads up in the rider and it is usually no problem. I understand that this is done, not as an insult to my skills but as part of the show. I don't get bent out of shape when I don't have control over a guitar players stomp box. This is the same thing. My suggestion is to get used to this. It just one more thing a pro has to deal with.
The point is I am hired to serve the needs of the performer(s) and to make the FOH sound great.
No trouble getting it done.
Don
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#944654 - 06/14/00 01:17 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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don@folkcafe.com
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Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 80
Loc: Westminster,MA,UNITED STATES
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I work with a number of indie lable artists that have on stage processing. It seems like a trend lately. I usually get a heads up in the rider and it is usually no problem. I understand that this is done, not as an insult to my skills but as part of the show. I don't get bent out of shape when I don't have control over a guitar players stomp box. This is the same thing. My suggestion is to get used to this. It just one more thing a pro has to deal with.
The point is I am hired to serve the needs of the performer(s) and to make the FOH sound great.
No trouble getting it done.
Don
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#944655 - 07/10/00 02:12 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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dave.aston@beer.com
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Registered: 06/08/00
Posts: 5
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I always find it interesting when you get into a discussion with musicians / sound engineers around the subject of effects. I've been playing pro for about 15 years and the one thing I've found is that the more you play, the less use you have for racks and racks of effects both vocally and instrumentally. From a guitar standpoint I just plug my Les Paul into my Marshall and away I go. Vocally, if the sound guy has an old SPX 90 and a old SDE 1000/3000 in his rack (80% of the time that seems to be the case) unless he's an absolute lugen... he'll do just fine. I think the point I'm trying to make here is that the most important part of the performance is NOT the number of effects units in your rack or how many patches you can call up in an evening, but the ability of the musician himself / herself. I don't know how many times I've seen guys / girls show up at a gig with their 20 million effects and watch the scrunched up faces of the audience and soundperson as the musician tries unsuccessfully to navigate through multiple patch changes during the course of a song. Look at the 100's of high profile musicians today and for the most part (of course there are always exceptions) they rely on their abilities as a musician, not effects.
Now I don't know what style of music Faceless plays, and maybe multiple effects are an integral part of it, but the ultimate point I want to remind everyone on is that it's the musician.... not the effects !!!!
[This message has been edited by dave.aston@beer.com (edited 07-09-2000).]
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#944656 - 07/10/00 03:10 AM
Re: "Cookie cutter" soundguys
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faceless@iquest.net
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True, it does come down to the abilties as a musician. One should never replace sheer skill with effects. On the other hand, listeners in general nowadays have a shorter attention span. The music biz has been saturated with artists that have come and gone, been there and done that. It's only becoming harder as time passes to stand out as an original artist.
Maybe plugging a standard Les Paul into a Marshall is right for you. Maybe belting out some vocals through a cheap radio shack mic is right for you. The fact of the matter is, standards are only followed so long before they become trite. Then something new is done, and a new generation of standards branches out, just like music itself.
I don't care what anyone says, everything you use to create your music is just an extension of your mind. Therefore, anything you use to get the job done (i.e. electric guitars, keyboards, effects, triangles, picks, etc.) is necessitated by your own creative originality and imagination.
We all, as musicians and music lovers, have our quirks, likes and dislikes. Only we know our vision best and someone elses opinion as to how we should sound comes probably not even next. Les Paul himself is a great example. Guitarists scoffed at him when he designed "the log" because the standard was an acoustic guitar. The music industry laughed at early hip hop artists seeing it as something that would come and pass QUICKLY. It just goes on and on.
So, when we show up to play a gig and we're sneered at or joked about for the "extensions" we use to make our vision happen live, then it irritates me (if it's the sound guy.) I say that because, obviously not everyone is going to like your music, but like it or not, it's the sound engineers job to be concerned about mic placement, EQ, and volume, not artistic judgement. If it requires EQ and level adjustments beyond what the settings are typically fixed at, so be it, that's part of the job. We don't get any extra money for travelling hundreds of miles and loading and unloading all our gear, it's just part of our job.
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