#9304 - 09/25/01 01:36 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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d gauss
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to see an excellent answer to the "phil collins sucks" question as well as many others (i.e. billy joel, john tesh, CATS the musical, and kenny G.), check out the following book:
Red Lobster, White Trash, and the Blue Lagoon : Joe Queenan's America
by Joe Queenan
the funniest book i have ever read on popular culture. (though admittedly not very funny if you like any of the above mentioned)
-d. gauss
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#9305 - 09/25/01 01:37 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Lee Flier
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Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:
What exactly is the crime the Mr. Collins is supposed to have committed? Having hit albums? Being successful in the music business? Working with the best players? Being a great showman? Writing songs the musical novices can enjoy? Playing fusion that only players can enjoy? Being an extra in "A Hard Day's Night"? Being successful enough to become a household word, successful enough for Letterman to make jokes about him? Playing in multiple successful bands in addition to having his own successful solo career?
No, I don't particularly hold any of these things against him (although I do not agree that he's a "great showman")... or at least, I wouldn't, if he didn't SUCK so bad! 
Writing compelling songs that have been used in dozens of soundtracks?
You may find them "compelling". I find them boring, plastic, asinine, contrived, pretentious, insipid, irritating, gutless, and wimpy. The fact that he is capable of doing better makes him twice as guilty.
Creating a signiture drum sound that inspired legions of immitators?
Uhhh... yes, I would definitely consider that particular drum sound a crime against humanity.
Being the first to use the TR-808 on a serious recording (thus singlehandedly inspiring its use in the techno revolution)?
Yep. Guilty as charged.
Any more questions?
--Lee
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#9306 - 09/25/01 01:42 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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vintagevibe
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Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:
What exactly is the crime the Mr. Collins is supposed to have committed? Having hit albums? Being successful in the music business? Working with the best players? Being a great showman? Writing songs the musical novices can enjoy? Playing fusion that only players can enjoy? Being an extra in "A Hard Day's Night"? Being successful enough to become a household word, successful enough for Letterman to make jokes about him? Playing in multiple successful bands in addition to having his own successful solo career? Writing compelling songs that have been used in dozens of soundtracks? Creating a signiture drum sound that inspired legions of immitators? Being the first to use the TR-808 on a serious recording (thus singlehandedly inspiring its use in the techno revolution)?
Sounds like a pretty good career to me! I can't believe that you guys are slamming the guy. A REAL musician, a world class drummer who actually made some money in the music industry. In this age of silicon teenage bimbos and prepackaged dancing pretty boy acts, I find it refreshing that a real musician CAN enjoy a little success in this business.
Dansouth you said it quite well. There is a sad trait among musicians in general to always need to cut down other's works. The unconscious psychology of it goes something like this: "If that big star sucks and I know it, I must be really good by comparison." I see these posts on all the music boards. Most successful professionals refrain from this. It's usually the unsuccessful wannabes that think they should be a star that need to dis other artists. There are many posts in this thread that prove the point.
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#9307 - 09/25/01 01:53 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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I love how whenever anyone tries to have some fun around here, someone else has to chime in with the potically correct, moral majority message.
Look...no one can say that Phil hasn't been successful. That's fine. It doesn't preclude the possibility that many of us can't stand his watered down, devoid of personality, formula-driven plastic music.
And guess what? It's fine to have a "Phil Sucks" thread here. It doesn't mean that we're all jealous of Phil; it doesn't mean any of us secretly want to be Phil. It just means that according to our collective brilliance, he sucks. He blows. He is the antithesis of everything I like in music.
My wife, on the other hand, probably likes Phil's music quite a bit now, and would hate earlier, cooler (IMHO) Phil/Genesis. See? There's two different people, with two different opinions, and we manage to still respect each other. We just don't play the stereo much with the other around. 
- Jeff
P.S. He really does suck, you know.
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#9308 - 09/25/01 01:58 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Anderton
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<>
I don't buy that. Most people credit its use in hip-hop and rap, from whence it migrated to techno, due to a huge shipment of them being left outside Manny's music on pallets. There was a sudden rainstorm, soaking the packaging. They were blown out at super-low prices, and picked up by a lot of kids who couldn't afford the more expensive stuff. This story sounds apochryphal, but has been confirmed for me by a former Manny's employee, as well as some people who work for Yamaha and Roland.
I agree that many times, these types of subjects are inspired by jealousy. But I think this is a different case. Phil Collins used to make very adventurous music, especially his side projects, like Brand X (I think that's what the band was called...). By doing this, he gave a lot of pleasure to musicians who wanted something more than "just regular old pop music." So, when he became more pop oriented, people felt betrayed because a source of cool music had been cut off.
Where I diverge from this is that he can do whatever the hell he wants, far as I'm concerned. I think he genuinely feels what he's doing now, and I agree that perhaps what made his music adventurous was a cathartic process that is no longer needed. I certainly would never begrudge a musician being happy and rich...not bad for a bald old guy, eh?...I wouldn't mind that fate myself.
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#9309 - 09/25/01 02:25 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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AmadMozart
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Registered: 07/31/01
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Originally posted by Anderton:
<>
I don't buy that. Most people credit its use in hip-hop and rap, from whence it migrated to techno, due to a huge shipment of them being left outside Manny's music on pallets. There was a sudden rainstorm, soaking the packaging. They were blown out at super-low prices, and picked up by a lot of kids who couldn't afford the more expensive stuff. This story sounds apochryphal, but has been confirmed for me by a former Manny's employee, as well as some people who work for Yamaha and Roland.
I agree that many times, these types of subjects are inspired by jealousy. But I think this is a different case. Phil Collins used to make very adventurous music, especially his side projects, like Brand X (I think that's what the band was called...). By doing this, he gave a lot of pleasure to musicians who wanted something more than "just regular old pop music." So, when he became more pop oriented, people felt betrayed because a source of cool music had been cut off.
Where I diverge from this is that he can do whatever the hell he wants, far as I'm concerned. I think he genuinely feels what he's doing now, and I agree that perhaps what made his music adventurous was a cathartic process that is no longer needed. I certainly would never begrudge a musician being happy and rich...not bad for a bald old guy, eh?...I wouldn't mind that fate myself.
I'm pretty sure it was that 808 that Collins first used anyway. I think it was the old Simmons drum machine.
------------------
http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936
or listen at...
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html
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#9313 - 09/25/01 02:39 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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vintagevibe
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A lot of this boils down to the difference between saying that you don't like something and saying that something "sucks". There is a big difference. If you don't like an artist then you choose to not listen to them. If they "suck" there is a tacit (or sometimes verbose) implication that anyone who does like them must have no taste or must not be very musically sophisticated. This goes back to my previous statement when you hear "sucks" there is usually some insecurity, jealousy or misguided elitism involved.
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#9314 - 09/25/01 02:40 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Lee Flier
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Originally posted by dino321:
Dansouth you said it quite well. There is a sad trait among musicians in general to always need to cut down other's works. The unconscious psychology of it goes something like this: "If that big star sucks and I know it, I must be really good by comparison."
Not hardly. There are plenty of "big stars" whose music I love and I don't begrudge their success at all. My own opinions are based on the music and the music alone, not someone's level of commercial success one way or the other. I'm the first one to praise someone whose music I admire just as I will bag on someone that I think sucks.
Most successful professionals refrain from this. It's usually the unsuccessful wannabes that think they should be a star that need to dis other artists
HAHAHAHA you're kidding right??? I count quite a few "successful professionals" among my friends and aquaintances and they are as opinionated about music as anyone else! They may or may not say so in the press, but rest assured they are just as ready to cut someone else down if they think the music sucks. Good musicians tend to be passionate and opinionated and I don't see a thing wrong with that.
--Lee
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#9315 - 09/25/01 03:17 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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vintagevibe
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Lee Flier,
See my last post.
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#9316 - 09/25/01 03:25 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Lee Flier
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OK Dino, I just read your last post... and I think it's a mistake to put words in people's mouths that they haven't said. I don't know where you get the idea that the word "sucks" carries any implication about any person who likes that artist.  I think that is your own interpretation, not everyone else's.
--Lee
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#9317 - 09/25/01 03:26 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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vintagevibe
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I dissagree.
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#9318 - 09/25/01 03:37 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Lee Flier
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LOL OK so I've used the word "sucks" on more than one occasion. Are you telling me that you know what I'm saying better than I do and can read my mind?
--Lee
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#9319 - 09/25/01 03:49 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Gulliver
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Originally posted by joegerardi:
Actually, I'll go a little further than most of you. I'll say 1986, and the "Invisible Touch" album.
It was a transitional album, from prog to pop. It had the pop "Invisible Touch" and "Land of Confusion," but it still a maintained the progressive flavor of "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" and "Domino" Pt1 and 2, with (I believe) their last instrumental piece, "The Brazilian."
After that was the awful "We Can't Dance," and the soul of Genesis was forever gone.
"We Can't Dance" has some great moments such as the last track called "Fading Lights" - one of my personal ALL TIME favourite songs by Genesis.
"Dreaming While You Sleep" also is not bad, IMHO.
Just my 2 cents 
Vladislav
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#9320 - 09/25/01 04:02 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Anderton
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All I know for sure about sucking is that ALL harmonica players suck. But they also blow, giving them the rare distinction of being the only kind of musician who both sucks and blows.
There is one musician whose music I find truly annoying. Out of respect for those who might get queasy just upon hearing his name, I will not reveal who this person is. But one time, I had the opportunity to meet him in person. I was happy to find out that even though his music was totally annoying, so was he. It gave me the license to continue disliking his music intensely without any guilt whatsoever!
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#9324 - 09/25/01 05:33 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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TinderArts
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I am amazed at the numbers of replies to this topic. I really posted this as a diversion to the WTC issues and a way to talk about a truly trival issue - Phil Collins and his relationship to suckdom.
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#9325 - 09/25/01 05:38 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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joegerardi
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Originally posted by Anderton:
There is one musician whose music I find truly annoying. Out of respect for those who might get queasy just upon hearing his name, I will not reveal who this person is. But one time, I had the opportunity to meet him in person. I was happy to find out that even though his music was totally annoying, so was he. It gave me the license to continue disliking his music intensely without any guilt whatsoever!
Ooh, ooh... His initials aren't ALW by any chance are they? I met the little squirt too, and, as my freind the 1st chair violin for 77's Superstar put it: "Just talking to him for 2 minutes gives you the justifaction to smack him in the face with a baseball bat."
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#9326 - 09/25/01 07:43 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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dansouth
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Originally posted by Jeff, TASCAM Guy:
Look...no one can say that Phil hasn't been successful. That's fine. It doesn't preclude the possibility that many of us can't stand his watered down, devoid of personality, formula-driven plastic music.
Any of you can walk outside right now and within five minutes find someone who HATES Mozart's music. Does that mean that Mozart sucks? No!!!! I fully support anyone's right to dislike Mozart, Phil Collins, Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, or any other performer/composer. But at least have enough class to say, "I never cared for so-and-so's music," instead of implying that there's something inherently wrong with it (or with THEM). At least this way, we can have an intelligent exchange of ideas. You can explain what you don't like, and others can explain what they do like. In the end, we'll all benefit from each other's viewpoints. But that can't happen when someone plays the "suck" card.
If you don't like someone's music, it's not their fault. If you don't like lima beans, it's not the gardener's fault. It's purely a matter of taste. Far better to discuss your impressions than to brand a performer as worthless. I assume that we've all gone beyond the seventh grade, here.
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#9327 - 09/25/01 09:05 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Dan...it's just more fun to say "he sucks" than "I personally find his music to be differing from my general sense of aesthetic as it relates to music".
People are allowed opinions, and people are allowed to express them with as much juvenile glee as they want. The only time I disagree with this is when it's used to purposefully inflict pain on someone else. I don't believe in cruelty, but at the same time, even if the mighty Mr. Collins were reading this, I really doubt he'd give a crap about the opinions of a few goofballs on the internet. Besides (as to not hurt Phil's feelings)...he can be a brilliant drummer, and his voice is unique, and he has written some very appealing pop tunes. In those aspects, in the opinion of Jeff, he is lacking in suckiness. Otherwise...SUCK!
Look, man...I deal with this all the time. "Your products suck." "Your ads suck." "Your web site sucks." And that's just life, ya' know? I still sleep fine at night.
So there.
- Jeff
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#9328 - 09/25/01 09:10 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Dave Bryce
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Originally posted by AmadMozart:
I'm pretty sure it was that 808 that Collins first used anyway. I think it was the old Simmons drum machine.
LinnDrum, I think...
dB
_________________________
www.davidbryce.net Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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#9329 - 09/25/01 10:26 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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vintagevibe
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Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:
Any of you can walk outside right now and within five minutes find someone who HATES Mozart's music. Does that mean that Mozart sucks? No!!!! I fully support anyone's right to dislike Mozart, Phil Collins, Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, or any other performer/composer. But at least have enough class to say, "I never cared for so-and-so's music," instead of implying that there's something inherently wrong with it (or with THEM). At least this way, we can have an intelligent exchange of ideas. You can explain what you don't like, and others can explain what they do like. In the end, we'll all benefit from each other's viewpoints. But that can't happen when someone plays the "suck" card.
If you don't like someone's music, it's not their fault. If you don't like lima beans, it's not the gardener's fault. It's purely a matter of taste. Far better to discuss your impressions than to brand a performer as worthless. I assume that we've all gone beyond the seventh grade, here.
Once again Dan, you have stated the issue with clarity. The "suck card" is a device of little depth and limited prespective on music and life.
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#9330 - 09/25/01 10:55 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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TinderArts
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The Redskins suck. Suck bad. Makes no difference if I care for them or not, they suck. (And this hurts as I'm a life long Skins fan) 
But sports are pretty easy to judge. They keep score. Music, on the other hand, is subjective. So to each, like what you like (and lighten up a bit).
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#9331 - 09/25/01 11:23 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Personally, I'm just jealous that TinderArts' "Collins Sucks" thread has recently surpassed my "Cat Puke" thread in responses. Then again, the cat puke turned out to be less inflammatory than Phil, so it all equals out in the long run.
You know, my wife was listening to the new Phil Collins record right before the cat puke incident occured. Coincidence? I think not!
- Jeff
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#9332 - 09/25/01 11:27 PM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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Batman_dup1
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Originally posted by Anderton:
All I know for sure about sucking is that ALL harmonica players suck. But they also blow, giving them the rare distinction of being the only kind of musician who both sucks and blows.
There is one musician whose music I find truly annoying. Out of respect for those who might get queasy just upon hearing his name, I will not reveal who this person is. But one time, I had the opportunity to meet him in person. I was happy to find out that even though his music was totally annoying, so was he. It gave me the license to continue disliking his music intensely without any guilt whatsoever!
Hey Craig...
NOW...you've got me interested!
Of course...as a consumate professional.. I wouldn't expect you to reveal this person's name...but...a coupla clues would be nice!....
As for dear old Phillip...I reckon that he seriously lost it in 1985, when he managed to contribute jack-shit to both the London and Philly Band-Aid gigs...he failed spectacularly to catch the vibe of the thing....
"In The Air Tonight" was, however, a seminal cut......."You Can't Hurry Love"..was, unfortunately, abysmal enough to negate this and the whole of western music....
"Straight Jacket Required".....!
Best t'all
Ade
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#9333 - 09/26/01 01:45 AM
Re: How long has Phil Collins sucked?
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fantasticsound
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Originally posted by Jeff, TASCAM Guy:
...People are allowed opinions, and people are allowed to express them with as much juvenile glee as they want. The only time I disagree with this is when it's used to purposefully inflict pain on someone else. I don't believe in cruelty, but at the same time, even if the mighty Mr. Collins were reading this, I really doubt he'd give a crap about the opinions of a few goofballs on the internet...
I'm a bit confused here, Jeff. Are you saying that Phil wouldn't be harmed to read this because he's: rich, a celebrity, used to it? I guess if you can live with lying to yourself. The fact is you don't know how this would affect Phil, and if you really cared about "...it's used to purposely inflict pain on someone else...", you wouldn't chance saying it in the first place. At least be honest to yourself.
...Look, man...I deal with this all the time. "Your products suck." "Your ads suck." "Your web site sucks." And that's just life, ya' know? I still sleep fine at night...
So there.
- Jeff
No... you don't deal with this all the time! You would compare, "Tascam sucks!", "____'s recorder blows your away!" to "Phil Collins, the music you were inspired to create and record sucks!" What kind of robot are you? I don't remember the test of harm to another being whether you would care if it were you being attacked, in similar circumstances.
So don't stop using "suck" if it pleases you. I've done it. Just don't fool yourself into believing it's ok to say it here rather than to Phil's face.
I agree with Dansouth and Dino on this one. We all need a little time out!
------------------
Neil
Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.
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