#781069 - 07/11/03 03:42 PM
A question I have never seen asked before..
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TradeMark
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Registered: 07/10/03
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What are some of the ways a producer can sell a track? How does it work as far as "points" and "royalties"?
Let me be more clear with this example.
I am a producer. I produced a hip hop track with no samples. I am looking to sell it for $4,000.
Do I collect money if its played on the radio throught a company like ascap? or is it completely sold and I do not collect money anymore? How is points acheived? How do I base my price per track? on points?
This is something I really need feedback on. Thanks peoples..
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#781070 - 07/14/03 03:55 PM
Re: A question I have never seen asked before..
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freelance
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You indicate you "produced" a hip hop track. Did you also write, arrange, record, etc. The reason I ask, normally the producer coordinates the recording (producers may also hire musicians, book the studio etc.) - but the material belongs to the songwriter - accordingly, the song is not the producers to sell.
Now if in the role of producer you mean you are a completely self contained artist, who also produces (records) your own material - that is a different thing altogether.
There are any number of ways to establish the producers equity - however, this normally is done on the front end (before the tracks are recorded).
Normally, the artist or the lable (whoever is fronting for the recording) hires a producer. The producer may get paid a flat rate (per song or per project) or may get paid based only on points (which is for all practical purposes a spec deal) or the pay may be a combination of fee up front plus points on the back end.
Normally, a recorded work is "sold" to a publisher. The preferred method is to sign a publishing deal which does not give away the songwriter ownership. As an example, the publisher gets 1-3 years to get the material published, at the end of which time the artist is released from the contract. It is possible to sell a song flat out and give up any future rights - it depends on the contarct, on your faith in the material, etc.
It is almost impossible to gain access directly to an artist, you almost always have to go through a publisher - unless you have a good entertainment attorney with solid contacts.
Payment may come through sales of a recording (paid by the record lable) or through performance/mechanical royalties (such as through ASCAP) However, keep in mind, first a song has to be published, then it has to be placed (on a recording) then the recording has to sell x amount of copies - all before you see a pennie.
I've sold songs flat out and I've signed publishing contracts that allowed me to own the song. In my case I never had a song covered by a major artist, so selling the songs outright for money up front probably worked out better.
It is much herder to get published than when I was coming up. Artist all want to write and publish thier own material (to get that extra piece of the pay. Good luck with your song.
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#781071 - 07/15/03 06:53 PM
Re: A question I have never seen asked before..
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TradeMark
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Thanks for the detailed response. Ive got to read it a few times before I 100% understand the logic. but its good info. I am wondering. when I say producer you understand that I mean "Beatmaker" or the one who created the instrumental section of the song. I am not involved with any lyrical content. Somewhat like Timebaland or Dr.Dre. I am creating the instrumental "beat", hence "Producing". The reason why im saying this is because someone said I was unclear in my first post. What do you think?
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#781072 - 07/15/03 08:17 PM
Re: A question I have never seen asked before..
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freelance
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TradeMark,
Perhaps when we are useing the term "producer" we are coming at it from different views. When you say you are the "beatmaker" I must assume you created some loops or drum machine grooves, but no lyrics. THe real question here is what is a "song". If the entire composition is the beats you created then it is likely your "song" (or recorded work, or "track" whatever you prefer to call it). If it's yours, you own the song and also produced the song - however it would be your ownersip of the song as the writer (not the producer) which determines your right to sell the song or market the song.
However, if someone else helped to write or "create" the song then they may also be a writer with rights to the song.
While the genre of Hip Hop is slightly different than more mainstream "pop" (since it involves loops, grooves, samples etc. - rather than the more traditional "song form") the basic question still remains - Who wrote the song? - because that is who owns the song and has the right to sell it.
Have you submitted a copyright on the song? This would identify who "wrote" and owns the song. Candidly, you should copyright it before you even think about shopping it around.
So to clerify, if the "song" is completely the beats you created (with no other melodic, harmonic or lyrical content) it is likely yours to sell (as a songwriter not as a producer). However, if the "song" contains other elements beyond the beats you "produced" there may be other "writers" who also share ownership in the song and accordingly have a say in how it can be "sold" and who gets the proceeds.
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#781073 - 08/11/03 12:56 PM
Re: A question I have never seen asked before..
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MisterBlue
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Registered: 10/22/01
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Loc: SF Bay Area,CA,UNITED STATES
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Not to hijack this thread but it seems like the right place to ask my question ...
I am in a similar situation but my details are as follows:
1. My friend wrote all the songs and lyrics (with a little bit of help from my side here and there during recording/arranging).
2. I arranged, engineered, produced and played more or less everything on the album (with a little help from my friend). My friends contribution was an occasional acoustic guitar and all the main plus some backup vocals.
3. We both agree that we should have an equal share of all proceeds (should the project ever make money).
What is a reasonable way of handling the rights and how would we end up with approx. equal distributions from a deal ?
I guess the most obvious would be to simply pool the earnings and distribute them. Are there other ways that would assign rights to me as the songwriting rights are clearly my friends ?
Thanks in advance for your response.
MisterBlue.
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#781074 - 08/13/03 07:36 AM
Re: A question I have never seen asked before..
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dues
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Registered: 04/16/03
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Trademark, I'm pretty much in the same situation you are. I'm getting in position to make hits too.
[/B] What are some of the ways a producer can sell a track? How does it work as far as "points" and "royalties"?
Let me be more clear with this example.
I am a producer. I produced a hip hop track with no samples. I am looking to sell it for $4,000. [B]
The duty of a producer is in depth, he/she is sort of like the director of a movie. The producer directs the sound of the whole song and enhances the creativity and commercial potential of the song. Some producers even write parts of the song which is more common in our genre. Like freelance said, you are in charge of organizing recording sessions, hiring musicians, hiring vocalist, clearing samples, filing contracts and agreements, getting permission from record labels to use their artists, etc. so it is a job.
You should get started working with artist, and labels that you are on the same creative page with and don't expect much cash for your first few projects. Everything is negotiable when it comes to fees. I've heard of some fees starting at $50 but, this is not including the beat so you get whatever you can get for your beat. Some won't pay you upfront and you will have to take points on the back end. Make sure to get all agreements in writing. We all want big money for our work but, it comes later. This is ok for now because you are working, learning, and most importantly earning "credits". The first question a possible client will ask is "what have you done?"
and then you break out the albums that you have received your credits on and show them that you are on the map. The more credit and success the more you charge. You mentioned Timberland and Dr. Dre and man, these dudes are at the top of their game and they are able to sell someone a "track" as you put it because everyone knows what they are capable of; their track records are just so outstanding and it brings priveledge to their game. These guys can make a beat and send it off for $100,000 and no one will question whether they can deliver something hot or not. You see what I mean?
I recommend a book called Confessions of a Record Producer by Moses Avalon. This book has helped me understand a few things about the business. The only thing it doesn't go into depth on is the beat making part of the biz. Some established producers are getting co-writing(publishing)for their beat on the song they produced which is good for the producer. Also learn about copyrights of music and songs.
This should clear up a few clouds for you.
See you at the top!
dues
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#781075 - 08/14/03 12:17 AM
Re: A question I have never seen asked before..
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dues
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. . [/B] I arranged, engineered, produced and played more or less everything on the album (with a little help from my friend). My friends contribution was an occasional acoustic guitar and all the main plus some backup vocals. [B]
Hope this helps.
dues
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#781076 - 08/29/03 12:05 PM
Re: A question I have never seen asked before..
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vibes
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Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 79
Loc: USA
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My 2 cents:
1st,,having been on both sides as a writer/composer and engineer and producer..you must define your place and order in the relationship..
as an artist I have had engineers ask if they owned the actual mix..wrong..
The writer of the lyrics and music are the OWNERS of the material and should ALWAYS be registered as scuch with the US Copyright office..
easy to do and cheap..
A legit deal with a label involves writers share(split between the creators of the song) and the publishers share..(the person or company who manages the business side,placement and the like)
I know things are hazy in the hip hop world with samples..legal and otherwise..but lets get real guys and try to keep things honest in terms of credit..
I also suggest that selling out your beats for 50 bucks in the long run will do you no good..
Copyright original material and work legit...
Also..if you borrow beats no matter how small you open yourself up to legeal problems not to mention loss of your future profits and having that possible gain right to the publisher..
Trust me..if the song becomes a hit your loopology will come under great scrutiny!!
My 2 cents..
best to all
vibes
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