#779750 - 02/14/05 03:09 PM
Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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pfastfoot
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I'm looking for some advice from players who have experience playing with jambands.
My background is in classic rock and jazz but I have recently started drumming for a Grateful Dead cover band. If you are familar with the jamband scene, you know that one song often blends into another.
My bandmates (who have experience in the jamband world) say it's no big deal to hook together two songs with different tempos, and just let the tempo change when you change tunes. I've always thought that even when combining two songs, tempo should remain consistent (unless you do a doubletime or halftime switch). It's hard for me to accept a paradigm where altering tempo is OK.
That was a long-winded set up for a couple questions:
1) is linking two songs with different tempos together OK in a jamband setting?
2) if the answer to Question 1 is "yes", what suggestions do you have for keeping the band together as you switch the tempo (i.e., should the tempo change be gradual or quick, etc.)
Thanks!!
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#779751 - 02/15/05 01:06 AM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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Big Red 67
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Tempo should change on porpose. hehe If you can keep a solid tempo then Feel don't Think. Then tempo shifts will be musical not mistakes. But don't trust me I'm just a bass player. hehehe
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#779752 - 02/15/05 01:45 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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D_dup3
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One of my favorite things about PFunk concerts (now there's a jamband for ya!) was their unstopping playing, sometimes for hours, as band members subbed for each other.
They'd connect tunes by thematic material but also sometimes simply & abruptly change tempo. If used well that can be like a sudden call to "Attention!"
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#779753 - 02/15/05 01:56 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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Jimbroni
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I play bass in a jamband.
Yes its OK.
The answer to number 2 is more complicated. The best jambands can read each others minds. If you're going change tempos it can be done gradually or abruptly. My band does a medley of the Cissy Strut to Rudy (a message to you), which has a strange transistion because it goes to a slightly slower tempo, and changes to major from minor. Essentially, during the outro of Cissy Strut we change the key to major and continue playing Cissy while gradually slowing down to Rudy, it takes three measures and on the fourth we change. Overtime these kind of shifts will get better.
The other option that is acceptable in Jambands is to not change the tempo. Just play the other song in the original tempo. Its completely cool, encouraged in fact, in the jam scene to do songs differently at every show.
_________________________
Together all sing their different songs in union - the Uni-verse. My Current Project
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#779754 - 02/15/05 01:57 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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Jimbroni
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Oh yeah, PFUNK is the Bomb.
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Together all sing their different songs in union - the Uni-verse. My Current Project
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#779755 - 02/15/05 03:48 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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Tedly Nightshade
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It is very often necessary to change tempo within the same song, for example when going to the chorus or bridge- a person shouldn't be afraid to change tempos.
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#779756 - 02/15/05 10:59 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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sidereal
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Not to name drop or anything, but I played a gig with George Clinton once. The songs went on so long I thought I was going to die. It's not easy sitting on a groove for 20 minutes.
I'm very much against the idea of rigidity in tempo as an absolute. There are times when fluidity in tempo helps the music. Our heartbeat is never completely constant, it changes with emotion. I'm not saying that a loose groove is good practice because 96% of the time, it leads to a loose foundation.
But there are times when you just have to do what feels right. Particularly in jam bands, which is great fun. To answer your question: Yes, it's okay to change tempos in song transitions in this kind of music. In fact it's expected and it makes the music better. As for the band making the change without things falling apart, it comes from rehearsal and intuition. There is 'band time' in groups like these. As a drummer, it's usually your role to define things, but there's a lot to be said for going through the changes as a unit. I can't explain how this works. It comes from being familiar with your bandmates.
Have you ever been to a Dead or a Phish show? I guess they're both gone, so you can't do that anymore. But go to a jam band show and dance in the audience. Tempos change all over the place and the crowd loves it.
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Just for the record.
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#779757 - 02/16/05 10:42 AM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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Tedly Nightshade
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If you want to hear how hot the Dead could be, listen to some stuff from '73-'74 where Mickey is on holiday and only Billy is playing the drums. You may be astounded to find out how nimble, funky, and fast on their feet the Dead used to be!
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#779758 - 02/16/05 02:36 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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D_dup3
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Re question 2: The best way to address this is to have some plan of what will occur in a set & a metronomic/click source that everyone can monitor. Seem to go against the "jamming ethic"?
Well, we all know that performances are a good deal more contrived/rehearsed than most audiences realize. Very few musicians can really, totally improvise.
There are various ways to acccomplish this. Most extreme & complicated would be a click that all players can monitor. There are ways of doing this that allow for changing the tempo in response to one members tapped input.
A similar thing might be to designate one or another player as conductor [it need not be the same person for all segments] & at times of transition require everyone to focus on them for transition direction (like themes that suggest what's coming up) & specific tempo, since that may be variable each performance.
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#779759 - 02/16/05 03:13 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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Jimbroni
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"If you want to hear how hot the Dead could be, listen to some stuff from '73-'74 where Mickey is on holiday and only Billy is playing the drums. You may be astounded to find out how nimble, funky, and fast on their feet the Dead used to be!"
LMAO. Have you ever listened to Planet Drum? F'ing incredible until Mickey (miss da beat)Hart hits something.
_________________________
Together all sing their different songs in union - the Uni-verse. My Current Project
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#779760 - 02/16/05 03:58 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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Tedly Nightshade
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Originally posted by d:
Re question 2: The best way to address this is to have some plan of what will occur in a set & a metronomic/click source that everyone can monitor. Seem to go against the "jamming ethic"?
Well, we all know that performances are a good deal more contrived/rehearsed than most audiences realize. Very few musicians can really, totally improvise.
There are various ways to acccomplish this. Most extreme & complicated would be a click that all players can monitor. There are ways of doing this that allow for changing the tempo in response to one members tapped input.
Really though, the jam band thing, for what it's worth (could use some help, Owsley can you hear me now? ) is supposed to put the spontaneity back into music. It's supposed to be a thing where the audience energy can change what the band is playing, including tempo. Machines just don't respond the same way.
A similar thing might be to designate one or another player as conductor [it need not be the same person for all segments] & at times of transition require everyone to focus on them for transition direction (like themes that suggest what's coming up) & specific tempo, since that may be variable each performance.
This is really how it works.
If you check out the old '73 to '74 Dead stuff with just Billy, you will see that Billy takes the role I will call "jam master". When things are pulling a couple different ways, he plays something that clearly articulates which path the band is to take. It's really fascinating to observe! Anybody might have a particular riff or pattern to suggest, which they suggest by playing it- each of the players influences the groove and the swing of the moment this way. Then Billy will affirm the best of these grooves and thus pull everyone into the flow together. It all seems to happen very fast and very intuitively, maybe not conscious mind stuff at all, but Billy pulls the various threads of the song or improv into just the tension required for optimal momentum.
Of course the way to get good at this is to spend 10,000 hours or so playing together and finding everybody's unique role in the music, and how they all fit together. Short cuts might be required, but it's never the same.
Really to imitate a band as innovative and unique as the Grateful Dead is to be that innovative and unique yourself- you're bound to end up somewhere else completely, just like they did.
_________________________
A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#779761 - 02/18/05 01:48 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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D_dup3
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Not to develop this into an argument but I personally don't see any conflict between responding to "the moment" & technology; one just has to do a bit of planning as to how to meet contingencies. There are devices that respond to ad lib tempo shifts, as I'm sure Ted's aware.
I do think, despite what seems the general opinion, that Kreutzman was/is a looser, more fluid player than Hart but I think one can look outside the rock/jamband circuit to find even more effective models for this stuff...but we all have our favorites, just as we all have approaches that we each will feel more comfortable with.
I think the primary thing is that players must remain attentive to whatever is happening in order to respond.
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#779762 - 02/18/05 02:09 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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pfastfoot
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Thanks to all who have replied. As I mentioned, I'm new to the jamband scene, even though I've played drums for the last 24 years. I've certainly done tempo shifts in jazz settings, but didn't realize it was as prevelant in the jamband scene. This has been a great education.
As long as people are interested in this topic, I'm curious to hear from those of you more familar with the Dead as to the relationship between Kreutzmann and Hart. I have to say that my initial impression is that I prefer the Dead with Kreutzmann only, although the Kreutzmann/Hart sound is certainly unique. From watching video it appears that they are both equal partners, rather the letting one or the other have a "lead drummer" role. I know the Allman Brothers Band has a similar set up, but haven't really heard it in many other contexts, outside of the horrendous paring of Phil Collins and Tony Thompson at Led Zep's Live Aid show!!
Has anyone heard Hart play by himself? Are his skills on par with Kreutzmann? This really just satisfy my curiousity more than anything else.
Thanks again for all the advice. Now that I'm immersing my in Dead music, I have to say that I like it a lot more than I though I would when I first landed this gig, especially their early to mid 70's sound.
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#779763 - 02/18/05 03:06 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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D_dup3
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Hart's no slouch; he's very technical & knowledgeable. To me it's a bit like Robert Fripp & Adrian Belew---one's very concept oriented & a bit didactic while the other is a "natural".
I'm sure T Nightshade's got a better perspective than I (I kinda gave up on them late-1970's when they seemed to give in to nostalgia).
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#779764 - 02/18/05 03:17 PM
Re: Jamband Drumming and Changing Tempos
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pfastfoot
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Yeah, I read an interview with both of them from an old Modern Drummer where Hart was talking all about world percussion (back before it became in vogue). In that article he talked about drumming conversations he had with Airto and Billy Cobham, so he's definately knowledgable.
Watching videos, he seems to have an odd technique, so I was wondering about how he sounds on his own.
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