#726519 - 03/13/06 11:15 AM
State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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bottle12am
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Guys...
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
I know way back when Jaco was still around, there was a point when he got cleaned up and planned a return to musical superiority. Yet, when he got out into the real world, no one cared if he was Jaco because 'every one was Jaco' (quote from the Milkowski bio, I believe). He no longer had anything unique to give because everyone stole his style.
Fast forward to a new generation bass hero, Vic Wooten. As far as I can remember, when he began to make his presence known in the late 80's/ early 90's, he was a unique voice in the world.
Is it just me, or now is EVERYONE Victor Wooten? Too many bassists, from the pros to the bars, to the little aggrivating kiddies trying to show off at Guitar Center, anyone who slaps now seems required to do it in the gazillion-BPM, rapid-fire string mute double-pluck style.
While Vic can do it with charm and style, these guys have reduced it to a souless technique. Call it the 'Yngwie-ing' of the bass.
Think of true, old-school slap. Something off a Prince or RHCP or Graham Central Station, where one 'poink' reverberated in your soul almost orgasmically, giving your ears just enough time to relax before the next soul-stirring hit.
When I listen to slap-styles now, I don't feel like like I'm grooving as much as I feel like I'm being shot at by a machine gun.
It's great when you're an innovator like Vic, but not that the technique is ubiquitous, where is a true musician like Vic to go?
Just a rant. Fire at will.
_________________________
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#726520 - 03/13/06 12:39 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Fred the bass player
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Originally posted by bottle12am:
Guys...
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
I know way back when Jaco was still around, there was a point when he got cleaned up and planned a return to musical superiority. Yet, when he got out into the real world, no one cared if he was Jaco because 'every one was Jaco' (quote from the Milkowski bio, I believe). He no longer had anything unique to give because everyone stole his style.
You also have to remember that he was (a) schooled in Miami on URB and a host of classic jazz pieces; (b) backed a number of solo artists as well as performing his stint with Weather Report; (c) redefined the state of Latin jazz (a category that is almost as large and multi-generational as traditional jazz, unless you want to lump Eddie Palmeri, Chita Rivera, Chick Corea and Tito Puente into the same category) through a partly-fusion partly-Cuban outfit called Word of Mouth. I don't see this combination of life experiences being repeated quite the same way in this century.
Originally posted by bottle12am:
Fast forward to a new generation bass hero, Vic Wooten. As far as I can remember, when he began to make his presence known in the late 80's/ early 90's, he was a unique voice in the world.
Originally posted by bottle12am:
Is it just me, or now is EVERYONE Victor Wooten? Too many bassists, from the pros to the bars, to the little aggrivating kiddies trying to show off at Guitar Center, anyone who slaps now seems required to do it in the gazillion-BPM, rapid-fire string mute double-pluck style.
While Vic can do it with charm and style, these guys have reduced it to a souless technique. Call it the 'Yngwie-ing' of the bass. 
Originally posted by bottle12am:
Think of true, old-school slap. Something off a Prince or RHCP or Graham Central Station, where one 'poink' reverberated in your soul almost orgasmically, giving your ears just enough time to relax before the next soul-stirring hit.
Originally posted by bottle12am:
When I listen to slap-styles now, I don't feel like like I'm grooving as much as I feel like I'm being shot at by a machine gun.
Originally posted by bottle12am:
It's great when you're an innovator like Vic, but not that the technique is ubiquitous, where is a true musician like Vic to go?
_________________________
"Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get." -Dale Carnegie “Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond to it." -Lou Holtz Where will Slap Pappy appear next? Visit Hot Time Harv and see.
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#726521 - 03/13/06 12:48 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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ZZ Thorn
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Well put. To be blunt - slap blows unless Larry Graham does it. Like you say, it's NOT the foundation of a style, it's a percussive accent to toss in every now and then.
The are SO FEW great songs where slap is used heavily. I think slap is something only bassists perpetuate - if it fell into disuse the public wouldn't even notice. I personally vote to let slap die.
Nearly every great bass groover is not a slapper. For every 1 'great grooving slapper' there's 99 great non-slappers. Just like for every great grooving song 99 are non slap and only great one has slap and that is being generous. Why is this (virtual) fact lost on so many bassists?
I own exactly zero Victor Wooten albums. As technically great as he is technicality doesn't interest me anywhere as much as soul and groove. I'll gladly stay behind the times.
Vic can concentrate on grooving and writing great songs, rather than masturbating I mean playing with 6 hands.
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#726522 - 03/13/06 12:53 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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jeremy c
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I slap in songs from time to time. Two of the samples on my webpage are slapped. I went to see Larry Graham every week when Graham Central Station came out.
and I hear you.
The current state of slapping has almost nothing to do with funk and almost everything to do with showing off.
Last week I saw Victor Wooten live.
He is a great player, there is no question about that. But a three hour show of "look what I can do", while enjoyable, is not really a musical experience.
Victor can provide the funk despite playing a million notes but most people can't. And he did have another bassplayer playing the actual bass lines most of the time.
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#726523 - 03/13/06 01:05 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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ZZ Thorn
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"And he did have another bassplayer playing the actual bass lines most of the time."
Sweet Mary mother of God! That is just WRONG! The guy is such a good bassist he needs another bass player? Ugh. The guy is such a tremendous anomaly. His approach, his skill, and his approach just make his music so highly specialized and distinctly un-universal.
There's bass playing and then there's Victor Wooten playing the bass - and that is not a compliment in my book, "Victor Wooten You Bore Me."
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#726524 - 03/13/06 01:16 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Thomas Wilburn
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Don't hold back, ZZ.
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#726525 - 03/13/06 02:10 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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ZZ Thorn
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Stop the violence! Down with slapping!
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#726526 - 03/13/06 02:39 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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CMDN
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Registered: 11/13/01
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I remember when The Red Hot Chili Peppers' Mother's Milk was released...
Ugh. Suddenly every dumb-ass bassist in a local rock band decided to take their thumbs out of their butts and start slapping with them instead.
It was annoying... because very few of them seemed to understand the idea that slapping with taste would sound better than slapping with vigor.
Of course, not long after that, Tool's Undertow came out, and suddenly there was another form of jackass bassist out in the clubs. Those guys were annoying, too, but at least they didn't slap. They did, however, use wayyyy too much chorus and play too many notes.
Then there were the Fieldy guys who had detuned five-string basses and an assload of pedals. They were annoying, too.
Times haven't changed much. It seems like there will always be a trend of some kind that the average putzo musician will start emulating.
I recommend... nothing. It's part of the whole thing.
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Erik
Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?
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#726527 - 03/13/06 02:53 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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mattulator
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I too am sick to freekin' death of slap.
When asked "Can you slap?" at a gig or music store I usually flash a sheepish grin and say "I wish."
There was one guy that played for some hippy band . . . Spin Doctors I believe . . . I dug his slap style but it was fused with a lot of others as well.
I used to slap a bit in my solos but that's just showing off - like you are supposed to in a solo. To do it endlessly is rediculous and boring.
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#726528 - 03/13/06 03:27 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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butcherNburn
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Originally posted by mattulator:
There was one guy that played for some hippy band . . . Spin Doctors I believe . . . I dug his slap style but it was fused with a lot of others as well.
Me? I don't really care to slap. It never moved me.
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#726529 - 03/13/06 03:27 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Luke73
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Originally posted by bottle12am:
Guys...
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
I know way back when Jaco was still around, there was a point when he got cleaned up and planned a return to musical superiority. Yet, when he got out into the real world, no one cared if he was Jaco because 'every one was Jaco' (quote from the Milkowski bio, I believe). He no longer had anything unique to give because everyone stole his style.
Fast forward to a new generation bass hero, Vic Wooten. As far as I can remember, when he began to make his presence known in the late 80's/ early 90's, he was a unique voice in the world.
Is it just me, or now is EVERYONE Victor Wooten? Too many bassists, from the pros to the bars, to the little aggrivating kiddies trying to show off at Guitar Center, anyone who slaps now seems required to do it in the gazillion-BPM, rapid-fire string mute double-pluck style.
While Vic can do it with charm and style, these guys have reduced it to a souless technique. Call it the 'Yngwie-ing' of the bass.
Think of true, old-school slap. Something off a Prince or RHCP or Graham Central Station, where one 'poink' reverberated in your soul almost orgasmically, giving your ears just enough time to relax before the next soul-stirring hit.
When I listen to slap-styles now, I don't feel like like I'm grooving as much as I feel like I'm being shot at by a machine gun.
It's great when you're an innovator like Vic, but not that the technique is ubiquitous, where is a true musician like Vic to go?
Just a rant. Fire at will.
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#726530 - 03/13/06 03:57 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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jeremy c
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The bass player for the Spin Doctors was Mark White. I enjoyed his playing.
I think that the Ibanez ATK bass was designed for him.
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#726531 - 03/13/06 04:13 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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ArwinH
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I have a slap solo in our latest jazz band chart, we'll be playing it in front of the composer on march 22nd, opening for teh cla state long beach jazz band. I've been planning on quoting some bits of Marcus' run for cover and Meshell's God.Fear.Money.
After reading this I'm also gonna end with some strummed eleventh chords leading into a minor third below tonic slide into a major seventh chord.....just trip all those slap happy kids out
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#726532 - 03/13/06 04:23 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Quinn
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Here's my take on it - Vic is a bassist's bassist and, for the most part, he's playing "bass player" music for a pretty specialized audience of musicians and fans of "superchops."
That's not meant to knock him, he's an incredibly talented musician who has pioneered a unique technical vocabulary.
However, when your personal style is defined by athletic playing techniques, it probably becomes especially difficult to get audiences to listen to your music without yelling "bass solo!!!"
I don't think people did that to Larry Graham when he was laying down his thumb lines with Sly, but times have changed. Maybe when Larry was playing with Sly, people were more tuned in to "the big picture?" Today, extremism gets most of the attention and many beautiful subtleties are lost on consumers of entertainment.
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#726533 - 03/13/06 04:37 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Stackimo
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Slapping is something for which I cannot do, but shouldn't expect to, as I have put little to no effort into that form.
I am not a slap fan, unless it is flea. I went to a Vic show once and as mentioned by Jeremy, was interested only to a point. I am to agree with ZZ on that subject. Although, there is a place for it, to me the bass is to occupy a different avenue.
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#726534 - 03/13/06 05:21 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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wurmhole78
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I think that non bass players have a big impact on the prevalence of slapping. Myself, I'm not into slapping too much and maybe only slap a couple of notes in a show. I'm also not into soloing at all.
Our fans regularly ask me to slap and anytime I slap a few notes live I get very strong feedback from the crowd. This naturally makes me want to slap more and I've started to look for ways to tastefully exploit the technique.
Futher, I think that people ask for slap because they can recognize it. I'm fond of my ability to fluidly change my right hand position in order to get the right tone for different parts of tunes. Folks don't see this or feel that what I'm doing is anything neat (which is kind of the point of supporting the front members of the band). Stick out your thumb and whack away at your fish and people notice that.
I guess then it has to depend on what your goal is, satisfying a paying crowd with what they want to hear or feeding your muse and doing what you think the art needs. Its a continuum of course.
+1 Quinn Vic is what he is. I once saw him with El Buho and Eric Avenger on guitar. Plenty of talent on stage for sure. Vic seemed to be having a lot of fun playing BASS in a pick up band. Fairly quickly it became apparent that most people (myself included) came out because of Vic's name at the bottom of an ad in the paper. Folks even started just standing in front of Vic waiting for his shtik. The band leader eventually just backed up and conceeded the show. I thought it was kind of a bummer that the show seemed to have been taken over by the crowd's desire to see some fireworks.
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#726535 - 03/13/06 06:38 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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tnb
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I can slap. It's not quite the athletic event it was back in the '80 and '90s, but I get by. There are other funky alternatives - that is what I search for. It's easy to go for the cheap "whooooa" from the audience - that will NOT hold there attention for more than 5 minutes. It another thing to inspire them to want to dance all night. And if they try and be Victor all night they will find themselves unemployed.
I don't think people did that to Larry Graham when he was laying down his thumb lines with Sly, but times have changed. Maybe when Larry was playing with Sly, people were more tuned in to "the big picture?"
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#726536 - 03/13/06 06:39 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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thabottomend
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I have gotten to see the Wooten Brothers several times at 3d and Lindsley, where they (and even occasionally Vic) have the steady Wednesday night slot. Reggie teaches here (I mentioned that one of my friends takes bass lessons from him in a previous post somewhere), and sometimes it's "student night". It seems that no matter if it's bass or guitar, all the students sound the same. A flurry of notes, and then it's on to the next clone with one of those ponytail things wrapped around the neck of his bass.
My bass teacher has an interesting take on slapping. When I asked him about slap techniques, his answer was "It's good to know to add texture to your music and range to your playing, but how would you feel about playing with a drummer who did nothing but rolls and fills all night?" I guess I should say here that he can play anything that Vic does without straining, but he can also build a pocket with the best of them.
I use it where it's appropriate, but it's like Dom Peringnon - if you don't have a steady diet of the "ordinary" stuff, then the "good" stuff doesn't seem special when you get it.
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"The music moves me, it just moves me ugly." William H. Macy in "Wild Hogs"
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#726537 - 03/13/06 08:16 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Dave Sisk
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Well...interesting thread. IMHO, bass is a groove instrument. If that means slap, finger-style, playing with a pick, thumb-picking, playing with a rubber chicken, then I'll do that. I like to hear contrast in music...I think slap well-used is a good way to build contrast.
I like Vic Wooten. I do think that some of what he plays stops being musical and starts being wanking. However, take a listen to some of the stuff on the Yin And Yang CD...the majority of it is VERY musical.
Dave
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#726538 - 03/13/06 08:48 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Ayatollah Watts
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more bastardizing of "slap"...
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#726540 - 03/13/06 11:19 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Luke73
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Originally posted by Dave Sisk:
Well...interesting thread. IMHO, bass is a groove instrument. If that means slap, finger-style, playing with a pick, thumb-picking, playing with a rubber chicken, then I'll do that. I like to hear contrast in music...I think slap well-used is a good way to build contrast.
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#726541 - 03/14/06 12:57 AM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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LizzyD
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I practiced my slapping in high school, in the attempt to get good at it because I thought it was really cool. Then when I went to Berklee, every damn bass player was obnoxiously slapping up a storm everywhere I turned - in the hallways, in the practice rooms, in the music stores. I got so sick of it I swore off it. It certainly wasn't taught in any classes.
That was in the 80's. 't ain't nothin' new. Just ignore them.
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#726542 - 03/14/06 02:23 AM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Phil W
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Good initial post, bottle 12 am.
I wasn't going to get involved but I think some of the posts have been merely slagging off the technique(huh!) or slagging off Victor. admittedly, some of this is tongue in cheek.
Victor is Victor, he's not my cup of tea but he is doing something different and well. I've never really appreciated his music; though I enjoyed the spectacle of his Bassday DVD.
No denying though, Victor is a very good musician! No point dissing him, diss the clones!
Slap is just a way to get a sound out of the strings - it's the fashion and overuse/misuse of the technique that's the problem. It's a great technique, I was very inflenced by Larry Graham, Bootsy, Louis Johnson, Mark Adams from Slave and those guys. Marcus Miller's playing on 'We Want Miles' was probably one of my main (later) bassplaying influences.
It's already getting out of fashion (except with bassists) and I've not been asked to play it in years; but it'll return. It's a great sound when done well. It's all a matter of balancing sparser groovy passages with occasional groovy flurries. Some of the sparsest basslines I've ever heard have been slapped! I've heard some great use of the (very) occasional 'pulled/popped' accent within a fingerstyle line more recently too.
I say start going to shows and not to GCs to listen to new talent
- great line, Fred!
It took me a little time to remember what a GC was, though. They haven't made it across the pond yet!
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#726543 - 03/14/06 07:50 AM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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BenLoy
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People have loved to hear slap solos since the days of Pops Foster and Milt Hinton. The percussiveness of it gets the audience off. I don't mind that.
I agree that there are too many Vic clones. But there are too many jaco-heads as well. Don't fault them too much...when someone comes on the scene with such a strong and unique style, everyone flocks to it. Vic did the same thing with Stanley for a long long time by his own admission.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go listen to this guy over and over again so I can cop his licks for my next gig:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8929247408490585325&q=bass
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#726544 - 03/14/06 09:20 AM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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CMDN
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The voice-over, complete with coughing, is what makes this clip work for me.
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#726545 - 03/14/06 09:32 AM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Edendude
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Is it just me, or now is EVERYONE Victor Wooten? Too many bassists, from the pros to the bars, to the little aggrivating kiddies trying to show off at Guitar Center, anyone who slaps now seems required to do it in the gazillion-BPM, rapid-fire string mute double-pluck style.
And for the most part, it's because I almost exclusively play in bands which have blues, R&B, and Motown as the bulk of their repertoires. You can literally find yourself thrown out on the street for playing a slap solo at blues gig.
For me there are far too many bassists trying to emulate Vic, Jaco, or Marcus, when the world would be a much more musical place, if the teens showing off at Guitar Centre had a clue who James Jamerson was.
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#726546 - 03/14/06 09:41 AM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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jeremy c
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I will confess: I played a slap solo last night.
We were playing a set of Moroccan songs. This music is wild....when I first listened to the music I couldn't even tell where the downbeat was. It's in some kind of 6 against 4 time signature and the melodies seem to be one beat offset from the rhythm section.
There were two percussionists on this gig. We hit some sort of groove and a slapped part seem to fit.
Then the bandleader heard what I was doing and signalled the others to drop out so I could solo.
I just kept playing the same groove that I was playing previously....only now everyone in the room could hear it. The dancers kept dancing, everyone was happy. The band came back in and that was that.
A good time was had by all.
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#726547 - 03/14/06 09:53 AM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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Tenstrum
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I personally don't like shredding which I think bottle12am is more refering to instead of just slapping.
It takes someone very skillful, mindful, and talented to shred without sounding like ass.
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Tenstrum
"It ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!" - Rocky Balboa
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#726548 - 03/14/06 01:53 PM
Re: State of the slap-happy nation (ranting)
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dhomer
Senior Member
Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 194
Loc: Kalamazoo, MI
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It appears I'm not alone... Right now I'm 98% fingerstyle, 2% pick... Slap is a technique I have NEVER caught the hang of, yet as I have said in another post, my gig is more secure than my real job... My bandmates are so used to my being so steady, I've actually shocked the hell out of 'em a couple times with a totally unexpected pop on the ol' G string... I may have to stop for a second and find my place again... hee hee hee...but the looks on their faces was worth it..
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