#521658 - 05/31/01 08:36 PM
How to practice challenging material
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dansouth
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I've been working on some Motown stuff lately. I practice at different tempos, from very slow to as fast as is comfortable. I practice with and without the metronome and carefully subdivide the beats in my head. Sometimes, I'll practice four bars at a time, then play the whole tune. I record myself frequently to make sure that the feel is there and that the technique is clean. After many months like this, I HAVE made some progress, but I'm not very far along in terms of getting the stuff up to tempo AND being able to play it cleanly.
My latest idea has been to practice one or two bars at a time played over and over like a riff. I do this at varying tempos, starting out VERY slowly. This seems to be helping, but progress is still slow. Am I on the right track, or am I missing some fundamental principle of practicing? I don't care how long it takes, but I DO eventually want to master this material. (I'm gaining more respect for Jamerson with each passing day.)
Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
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#521659 - 05/31/01 11:11 PM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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Ed Friedland
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Well, it sounds like you're on the right track. Slow is the way to go. Just hang in there, it will come together.
------------------
http://www.edfriedland.com
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#521660 - 06/01/01 09:13 AM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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Mr. Wise Man
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I agree that slow is the way to go, but suggest that you break the line down into phrases rather than measures -- going measure for measure is only really helpful if the line you're looking out was played measure for measure, and Jamerson's phrases and ideas frequently were not. You don't parse a sentence five letters at a time, right? You break it into its component parts, which tend to be of different durations. So take small bits that are sort of complete in themselves, get them under your fingers, and then try to integrate them back into the whole line (physically and mentally).
This message has been edited by Mr. Wise Man on 06-01-2001 at 06:15 AM
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#521661 - 06/01/01 09:25 AM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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Chad
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For what it's worth (most of my practicing has been on guitar), and insofar as it might apply:
I found that when I focused on technical mastery as an end, the joy went out of playing. And for me joy is the rocket fuel of being a musician! I have actually progressed faster sometimes by laying off for a couple of days, letting my hands, head and heart get rested, and then going back to the instrument with no other goal than enjoying playing. Don't forget humor! I used to play the "Woody Woodpecker" theme as a way to warm up or break out of a "brain cramp"...
The other thing that helps me is playing with others. Somehow playing with a band kicks me in the butt (imposes discipline) like nothing else. Even playing with a metronome, there are no consequences for flaking out, but there are immediate consequences in a band for stopping to go over the middle eight again...
Hope this helps.
This message has been edited by chad on 06-01-2001 at 06:26 AM
_________________________
"Music is the breath of God speaking to man's soul, so we musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear His voice, we read His lips..... That is why musicians are honorable." - Beethoven
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#521662 - 06/02/01 12:50 PM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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tnb
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I have to agree with Mr. Wise Man. Phrasing, interpretation is what makes music, and really, isn't that all we're trying to do.
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#521663 - 06/02/01 05:11 PM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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BassLand
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Registered: 02/01/01
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Hi Dan, Ed & Wise & Chad,
Dan, which tunes are you currently working on? I did a transcription of "Whats Happening Brother" by Marvin Gaye (it is posted on my message board http://bassland.net/_discussion/00000181.htm ) On this particular tune (which I think is more ambitious than "What's Going On") Jamerson is all over the place in one sense and if you look at (rather discover) how he did most of this stuff, he does not travel all over the bass. He used upright techniques (not only with the RH 1 finger tech but) especially his LH. He apparently used a lot of open strings as a way of getting from here to there quickly.
I do agree that slow is the way to learn how to play the notes but more importantly it gives you a way to assymilate how he did what he did on that particular performance allowing one to put some of those "tricks" in his playing (bars 3-4 and bars 13-14 of my transcription both, 2 bar phrases are examples of this IMO). Take a look at what he did there and we can have a discussion on my take as to how it was accomplished.
It's funny as there is a post or two on this subject which mentions the interpretation of the lines. Have you guys been to my site?
Let me know what you think if you have already been there. It is a great example of Jamerson at his finest. BTW there is a sample of me trying to play part of this transcription SLOWLY...
BL
This message has been edited by BassLand on 06-02-2001 at 03:27 PM
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#521664 - 06/03/01 02:56 AM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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tnb
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Bassland, that was me (pocketime) on your site. I really enjoy your site. I felt like a broken record this morning, but phrasing and interpretation are a couple of aspects of my playing I have been into the last few years and it is really starting to pay off.
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#521665 - 06/03/01 02:47 PM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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BassLand
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Thanks TNB,
I was beginning to wonder if there was some paralell universe thing going on here! Jamerson was having an intimate conversation with his bass when he played. Someone telling him what to say (play) only interupted that conversation.
A short story, When I was in music school one of the entrance exams called for me to sit back to back with an instructor who would play a note and ask me to play the same note. Not only did I pass that test, I even could discern what position he was playing the note in. As we bass players know, every note on the bass (even those of the same pitch but different string/position) sounds a little different.
This was a skill I had unknowingly aquired from years of studying (if you can call it that) what bassists I admired as players did on record and Jamerson was at the top of that short list. I remind you that I could not even read my name if it were expressed in music notation in 1980 and I was a good player! The fact that I have this "skill" has proven invaluable since I learned to read notation. It gives me much more insite into how a line was created.
If you are trying to play (for instance WHB) with closed positions you are not going to get near the interpretation (that Jamerson) expressed in that song. How he did it is as important as what he did. On my message board this what I was eluding to with the statement "it's not just the notes".
DanSouth,
You mentioned you have not gotten very far but you can play what you have gotten cleanly (I am paraphrasing here). WHat song are we talking about here? this might give us some insite into what you are experiencing. Are you using a chart/transcription? Do you also ocassionally forge ahead mistakes and all with the goal of getting to the end of the piece.
This is a subject that interest me a lot. I am not one of those typical school book musicians (even though I did go to music school). There were some aspects of being a music student that I could not wait to finish the course (which I did pass) so I could forget it. There were other things I needed to do with the newly developed skill (sight reading) that could not get done in the school inviornment once attained. I had to get back out into the real (music) world.
BL
(Looking Forward to Bass Day LA)
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#521666 - 06/04/01 03:20 AM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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dansouth
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Originally posted by BassLand:
DanSouth,
You mentioned you have not gotten very far but you can play what you have gotten cleanly (I am paraphrasing here). WHat song are we talking about here? this might give us some insite into what you are experiencing. Are you using a chart/transcription? Do you also ocassionally forge ahead mistakes and all with the goal of getting to the end of the piece.
I've been working on stuff from the Standing In The Shadows book on and off for about two years. For Once In My Life, What's Goin' On?, I Was Made To Love Her, Ain't Nothin' Like The Real Thing, Darling Dear, etc. I can play them cleanly at slower tempos (70 to 80 percent of the tempo listed), and I have made a lot of progress, but I can't seem to get them up to tempo without cutting some corners, simplifying fills, etc. It IS challenging material, and I don't expect to get it overnight. I just want to make sure that I'm doing everything I can to progress toward the goal of nailing these pieces one day.
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#521667 - 06/06/01 04:50 PM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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Thumper_dup2
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Sounds to me like you are on the right track. Some of the stuff is just hard to approach. Home Cookin' is the one that blows my mind. Fortunately its not a real popular cover. The group I've just got started working with has launched into some of this material. One of the tunes is the Gladys Knight take on Grapevine that Will Lee covers. What a piece of work. The thing that changed my way of looking at it was that our guitarist needed to sing it in G instead of C, and use more extended arrangements. Some of Jamerson's kicks don't work as well in other keys, but it made me think more about the style and phrasing he was after rather than just reading the part down. After all, his parts were mostly improvised on top of the main figure on the spot. You'll get your parts up to tempo with practice and then the next tune is easier. Even after getting the part down there is more you can get out of it. Isn't it great?
- pt
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#521668 - 06/06/01 06:21 PM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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dansouth
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Originally posted by thumper:
Sounds to me like you are on the right track. Some of the stuff is just hard to approach. Home Cookin' is the one that blows my mind. Fortunately its not a real popular cover. The group I've just got started working with has launched into some of this material. One of the tunes is the Gladys Knight take on Grapevine that Will Lee covers. What a piece of work. The thing that changed my way of looking at it was that our guitarist needed to sing it in G instead of C, and use more extended arrangements. Some of Jamerson's kicks don't work as well in other keys, but it made me think more about the style and phrasing he was after rather than just reading the part down. After all, his parts were mostly improvised on top of the main figure on the spot. You'll get your parts up to tempo with practice and then the next tune is easier. Even after getting the part down there is more you can get out of it. Isn't it great?
- pt
Thumper - thanks for the encouragement. Yeah, Home Cookin' has got to be one of the most challenging bass lines of all time. I was EXTREMELY impressed with David Hungate for tackling it - and NAILING it - on the Standing In The Shadows CD.
I have a question for you on Grapevine, specifically on the 16th note C arpeggios. Do you use an open G or a fretted G? If fretted, do you use the fourth (little) finger on the high C and the ring finger on the G, or can you cover it all with just the little finger? These high speed arpeggios also appear in Bernadette, but in that song, you can't "cheat" by using open strings. I'm trying to find the most efficient way to play this pattern.
Jamerson continues to amaze me. If he'd recorded a half dozen of these bass lines, he would still have been considered a great player. But he came up with great lines on HUNDREDS of albums. I don't know of anyone who's career achievement can compare to this guy, of bass or on any other instrument.
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#521669 - 06/06/01 08:30 PM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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Thumper_dup2
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Dan, I cover the G and the high C with the same finger as if it were a double stop. The plucking separates the notes. The most straightforward way is to use the fourth finger playing the subsequent E with the 1st finger without a position shift. There is, however, another approach. I should say that a lot of times in the lower positions I use upright fingering. It requires less stretching and helps good intonation on fretless. In this case an alternative is to bar the G and high C with the first finger, play the E with the fourth finger on the A string seventh fret, and then shift hand position for the low G. You can actually shift hand position during the 16th's as long as you play at least two notes in each position. Takes some getting used to but creates more possibilities. In fact you can also look at the first approach the same way; bar the G and C with the 4th finger, supporting the weak 4th with the 3rd finger if you've got high action, and shift the half step to the E, 2nd fret D string, with the 1st finger. Mechanics, mechanics, mechanics. There are so many ways to look at it; probably more than you were interesed in.
Jamerson can only be described with superlatives. We were lucky to have had him; he was a treasure. His work is reference, and it is great that it is so well documented. Glad to hear you enjoy it as much as I do.
- pt
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#521670 - 06/06/01 08:40 PM
Re: How to practice challenging material
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Thumper_dup2
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Dan, just realized I mis-spoke. Sorry. So many things we do and don't think about. The plucking does not separate the notes since they use a right hand rake. Although the two notes are covered with a bar on the same fret, they are separated by "rocking" the bar finger to alternately mute the previously played note. At least that's how I do it.
- pt
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