#521638 - 05/31/01 11:47 AM
Buried in the mix
|
KAP
Senior Member
Registered: 05/02/01
Posts: 49
Loc: ,NJ,UNITED STATES
|
Offline
|
|
When I listen to different songs, I listen to the bass line, or lack thereof, like I'm sure you all do, too. Whether it's country, blues, jazz, rock, whatever, there are always songs where the bass line comes through strong and clear, and others where the bass line is non-existent, or inaudible at the least. It seems that this happens much more often with bass than with other instruments, or maybe it's just my slanted perception.
I'd like to know your thoughts on why this happens. Is it problems with micing the instrument? equipment? disorganization? poor bass lines or bass players? soundmen or bands that don't like a lot of bass? I realize that on early recordings, recording upright bass was difficult, I'm not referring to that.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#521639 - 05/31/01 02:44 PM
Re: Buried in the mix
|
Sylver
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 05/05/01
Posts: 4672
|
|
Offline
|
|
Perhaps it has to do with the tendency to put the guitar in the sonic "spot" that the bass used to occupy. Especially when the guitar is playing a very distorted rhythm part, they tend to "scoop out" the mids and boost the highs and lows ... right where the bass likes to sit. To compensate, the bass ends up getting eq'ed much lower (And getting lost in the kick drum) or with lot's of highs and high mid (This is fine for slap playing, but for any other style, I think it makes the bass wimpy). An engineer friend of mine showed me that you don't really need to do this, if the guitar is left in the high-high mid range, the bass in the low-low mid range, it will make the mix more balanced overall and BOTH guitar and bass will sound powerful. (What forum am I in?)
_________________________
I really don't know what to put here.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#521640 - 05/31/01 03:09 PM
Re: Buried in the mix
|
BoneTone
Member
Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 6
Loc: wichita,KS,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
I know what you mean. I've tried learning some Mars Cowling stuff and he is horribly buried in the mix.
Based on my recording experiences, the reason behind it can be that the engineer's "style" is to de-emphasize the bass, (Bowie does this), the music is not beat-focused, the bassist does not participate in the pre-planning of the recording and get his ideas across to the engineer, or any combination of those three factors.
On one of my first recordings, I had the problem in reverse. I was the most outspoken and patient with the engineer. Consequently, everything on the first mix had a heavy coating of bass throughout and the other instruments sounded ancillary. That's not what we wanted at all and the final mix took some time.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#521641 - 05/31/01 03:10 PM
Re: Buried in the mix
|
g.
10k Club
Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 10021
|
|
Offline
|
|
Sylver, you have that right about distorted guitars and "engineers". Then you add the predilection for drum mixes that eat up bass space. This isn't just done by EQing either. In many instances the drums -- which cover the entire sonic spectrum and have enough "noise" content to really mask other things -- are mixed loud enough to where there simply isn't much space left over. The kick and snare alone can be used to ruin a bassist's day! And of course bass-area notes are the easiest to mask unless tons of mid highs and treble are present, which often goes against the grain of the desired tone.
Good engineers tend to make space, as Sylver describes, or add lots of low-bass and mid-bass which does not necessarily represent the bass player's live tone but at least makes the part audible on a decent playback system.
Of course, in some music, the bass part is so harmonically and melodically redundant that it is no great loss in some producers' minds to simply shuffle it off to being just a "feel" part.
_________________________
.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#521642 - 05/31/01 11:56 PM
Re: Buried in the mix
|
Ed Friedland
Platinum Member
Registered: 09/19/00
Posts: 1150
Loc: Tucson,AZ,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
I liked reading about how they mixed all the early Beatles records. They would do the whole mix without the bass, get the balances happening, THEN add the bass in . It makes sense because the bass takes up so much sonic space, it effects your judgement on what you're hearing. Next time I mix something, I'm going to try it THAT way!
------------------
http://www.edfriedland.com
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#521643 - 06/06/01 11:40 AM
Re: Buried in the mix
|
KAP
Senior Member
Registered: 05/02/01
Posts: 49
Loc: ,NJ,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Thanks for all the input!
Bone Tone, I know what you mean about de-emphasizing the bass. I heard a recent tune on the radio today, very Bowie-esque, but no bass. You'd think that with danceable music, bass would play a greater role in "beat-oriented" music. Danceable music of the 60's and 70's seemed to feature bass as simultaneous harmony and melody (J. Jamerson, L. Graham), almost to the exclusion of other instruments at times!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#521644 - 06/06/01 08:25 PM
Re: Buried in the mix
|
ricknbokker
Gold Member
Registered: 12/10/00
Posts: 570
Loc: Telford,PA,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Originally posted by Ed Friedland:
I liked reading about how they mixed all the early Beatles records. They would do the whole mix without the bass, get the balances happening, THEN add the bass in . It makes sense because the bass takes up so much sonic space, it effects your judgement on what you're hearing. Next time I mix something, I'm going to try it THAT way!
Now your're freakin' me out, Ed!
I always thought of myself as a 'rule breaker' throughout my years of recording, and then you go and spout crazy stuff like this!!
Seriously, when I read the post, the first thing I said to myself was "That's just not right!". Sure enough, my dark half said "You gotta try this!".
Just another reason to admire those damn British brats!
My problem is, the band I'm currently tracking with would NEVER be able to handle a situation like that. They don't have a lot of experience to begin with, and they are a lot more rigid in their thinking than I am. (or so I thought!!  )
Jeez, now I can't wait to give it a whirl.
Btw, I went to heavier D ang G strings on the Ric, and with judicious adjustments to the action, I seem to have straightened out my string to string balance issue.
Steve
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#521645 - 06/06/01 08:38 PM
Re: Buried in the mix
|
Bill@Bandstand Prod.
Senior Member
Registered: 06/05/01
Posts: 57
Loc: Alma,AR,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Since the kick and bass are the foundation of the tune..I always use dynamic compression on the bass track (s) and center it with a good forte of the kick. That way every bass note is audible. When I am mixing...the kick and bass are the first faders that go up. A build around them...and the cherry on top is the vox.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#521647 - 06/07/01 07:03 AM
Re: Buried in the mix
|
Jim T.
Gold Member
Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 580
Loc: WA,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Erlic Clapton is of course the artist formerly known as...
who will now tour in Eric's place. SOME day I'm gonna proof read before I click the submit button! Gno wot I meene? Jim.
_________________________
"When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have."
Edgar Watson Howe
"Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: Bob Gollihur (bob@gollihur.com), Tom Capasso, _Sweet Willie_
|
|
|
Jeff Emerick used to record Paul's bass with a mic in a figure eight pattern in a room that just had the bass amp in it. I'm gonna try THAT! Jim T.
